The Police Are Our Friends

Posted by Drew Da General
Ok I understand you have to stop the threat but does every officer have to fire?Why cant one officer just fire?

I would have to see the entire report to ascertain if all five officers fired upon the suspect. Having said that...

An officer should only fire upon a suspect if he perceives that the suspect is a threat to another human being. If one, two or all five officers fired upon the suspect, then I presume that each of them perceived a threat and engaged the threat by firing upon the threat. It would be unwise to start shooting when you do not see a threat. Just because other officers are shooting does not give one the license to begin shooting. An officer must always know what he is shooting at -- and why. Simply shooting because other officers are shooting is not a legitimate reason.

During chaotic situations, officers are not telepathic with each other and communication is usually slow and cumbersome. For example, in a shootout, all is fair in love and war. Once the bullets start flying, it’s every man for himself because if you make one critical mistake, then it’s over for you -- forever.

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Originally posted by Amuk
Snip...

Posted by Yxboom
Wow, not only has Drew Da General graced us with his presence in this thread, but now cavscout is here too!!!

Attempts at baiting like this are not helping your arguement

I have the utmost respect for these two pillars of the community.

Come, let us engage in pleasantries with each other.

As one sword sharpens another, so one man sharpens another.
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Originally posted by Yxboom
Come, let us engage in pleasantries with each other.

As one sword sharpens another, so one man sharpens another.

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I am starting to like you

For a slobbering Jack Booted Thug you don't sound too bad......LOL

Believe it or not we aren't real far apart in our views on the Police I just think they are a few more bad apples than you are willing to admit and I think you know it too.

I forget the name of the experiment but I am sure others will remember it. They took a group of college kids and divided them into two groups, one was the "prisoners" and the other group was the "guards" within a few weeks they had to shut it down because of abuse from the "guards".

It is the nature of the Beast. When given power over the group IT WILL BE ABUSED.

By whoever wields it. Maybe in small ways maybe in great ways, but it WILL be abused.

The trick is to give those in charge the LEAST amount of power possible to do their jobs and to watch them like a hawk.

The difference between Freedom and Slavery is just those in charges need for a little more power for our own good

[edit on 23-1-2005 by Amuk]

Thanks Amuk Being small town gives us front row seats to police corruption because of the small population size(not easier to hide it).I failed to mention in my earlier post that not only is the local police in town but the county police are also stationed there.You have two police forces in a town of 3,000 with nothing to do

Originally posted by Amuk
Not if you live in a small town. You can deny it all day and it doesn't make any less true. Things might be different in a city but in backwoods America not only do they do it for fun they joke and laugh about it. Your portrayal of the police force as unblemished shining knights who would never think of abusing their power is just as much hogwash as the guy saying 95% are corrupt.

quote]Originally posted by Yxboom
How do you know that the cops knew the man was dangerous? Are you their spokesman????

No but they had arrested him on several prior occasions for the same thing!They knew of his record.Small town remember, everyone knows everyone else business.

Posted by Simon_Boudreaux
Snip...
I said not all cops are bad, just the majority.

It sounds like you're prejudiced against the police, based exclusively on the color of their uniforms (police blue).

Actually the uniforms are tan shirt brown slacks.

Yes I am prejudiced against them not the color of their uniforms, my own experiences
have caused this.Until you can say the same thing you wouldn't understand it anyway.

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
For a slobbering Jack Booted Thug you don't sound too bad......LOL

Heh Heh Heh

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
Believe it or not we aren't real far apart in our views on the Police I just think they are a few more bad apples than you are willing to admit and I think you know it too.

Yes, it varies from agency to agency. I've seen one particular agency that would frequently "beat up" the bad guys on night shift. Several years ago (beyond the statute of limitations), one guy was all bloody and he was crying, "All I did was run" [from the police after getting caught stealing]. He expected to get away with his crime (of theft), but he didn't expect the police to get away with their crime (of battery). I guess the dull witted criminal was outwitted by the police, huh?

The textbooks call that "street justice" by the police. Most criminals who are victimized in this way never complain because who would believe... a criminal? But as we enter the 21st Century, we should see fewer cases of "street justice" for many different reasons which I won't elaborate on because, well, I'm sleepy and am going to retire for the evening.

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
I forget the name of the experiment but I am sure others will remember it. They took a group of college kids and divided them into two groups, one was the "prisoners" and the other group was the "guards" within a few weeks they had to shut it down because of abuse from the "guards".

Back when I was in school, one of my professors was involved in that experiment. It was facinating to hear him talk about it.

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
It is the nature of the Beast. When given power over the group IT WILL BE ABUSED.By whoever wields it. Maybe in small ways maybe in great ways, but it WILL be abused.

You may not realize it, but you're essentially saying that people can't be trusted. Many people can't be trusted. To whom much is given, much is required and whoever is faithful with a little bit will be faithful with a lot. But how do we find these faithful and honest people??? That's why the entry-level is so important. Naturally, if an organization is corrupt at the top, then the whole system can become short-circuited.

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
The difference between Freedom and Slavery is just those in charges need for a little more power for our own good. The trick is to give those in charge the LEAST amount of power possible to do their jobs and to watch them like a hawk.

The Republic of the United States was built upon the above principle. Power is "spread out" all across our country and it isn't concentrated in any one entity, although the Federal government has certainly grown by leaps and bounds over the last 100 years, probably much more so than our forefathers ever envisioned.
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Originally posted by Amuk
I forget the name of the experiment but I am sure others will remember it. They took a group of college kids and divided them into two groups, one was the "prisoners" and the other group was the "guards" within a few weeks they had to shut it down because of abuse from the "guards".

That was the Stanford Prison Experiment. Pretty intense stuff. I've thought for a while now it could be used to explain why some of the problems with soldiers and prisoners is happening.

Originally posted by Yxboom

Posted by Amuk
Snip...
It is the nature of the Beast. When given power over the group IT WILL BE ABUSED.By whoever wields it. Maybe in small ways maybe in great ways, but it WILL be abused.

You may not realize it, but you're essentially saying that people can't be trusted.
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Nope I know EXACTLY what I am saying. I love my fellow man but keep my gun loaded and count my change

like it or not...
the cops are on our team in regards to big bro...
they are supposed to protect and serve the public... not our leaders...
when our leaders attack us, the cops will be the ones we hope will help us...

I have known some good ones and some bad ones... and one thing i can say is this...
if you are a cop... ask yourself... are you good or bad... if you don't know... you are bad...
the good ones got in to do good... the bad ones got in to have power (and maybe try to do good) the good ones that survive the jadeing of training will go on to always be the "second best" because they don't enforce the little things... the gimmes in the quota book... they are not there to make it a game... they are there to sleep well at night... and help others to sleep well also...
thanks to all the good cops that wanted to be a cop for the right reasons...
stay safe and stay true...

Honestly yxboom you know what i think happens in those situations I think that once one officer fires the others become startled by that first shot and fire and continue to fire out of panic.That is quite scary if these officers are unstable and cant handle that type of pressure.They are supposedly trained to handle situations like that in a controlled manner.If they cant handle that they shouldnt be cops.Most importantly the trainers shouldnt pass them and allow them to be cops.They shouldnt hand out cop jobs to anyone.They should be really qualified for the job.The system is really f*cked up.I mean look at the army(might be a little off topic) I remember seeing a news report a few years back about what they were doing to the recruits in boot camp.They were banging a board of nails in the recruits chest.I guess they were "trying" to toughen them up.Imagine if they did that to the recruits of the police academy do you know how worse it would be??!!

Originally posted by Drew Da General
Most importantly the trainers shouldnt pass them and allow them to be cops.

OK, now I take offence. Short of trying to stab or shoot them in training, there is little you can do find out how they will react. It is the same in the Army; I have seen E-7s and officers freeze up and be useless in combat, while E-1s and E-4s were screaming at them to move, to wake up. You can never tell. More of a personal issue than departmental.

So far as saying they need to better trained, just how much of your tax money do you want to spend on training? Here in Vegas our academy is 23 weeks long.

I mean look at the army(might be a little off topic) I remember seeing a news report a few years back about what they were doing to the recruits in boot camp.They were banging a board of nails in the recruits chest.I guess they were "trying" to toughen them up.Imagine if they did that to the recruits of the police academy do you know how worse it would be??!!

You think one night of hazing will make a man into a monster? It is just fun and games, and it is not sanctioned by the Army. It is our own personal business, not part of the job.

Now your arguments are starting to piss me off.

If an officer is shooting simply because other officers are shooting, then that is not a sufficient jusitification to start shoot!!! An officer must know exactly what he is shooting at -- and why. He must be able to articulate the threat that he perceives. If an officer can't articulate the fact that he perceives a threat, then he should not be shooting. Period.

Different people react differently under stress. The stories that cavscout gave about E-1s shouting at E-6s or officers to "snap out of their fear" is sad, but is also true and is indicitive of the fear that some people must overcome.

More of a personal issue than departmental.

And the department is allowing these people with personal issues to become cops.

Banging a board of nails into one's chest fun and games?Yea I wanna play that game too

Originally posted by Drew Da General
And the department is allowing these people with personal issues to become cops.

I didn’t say they allow people personal issues to become cops. You are either not too bright or using Mike Moore tactics. Either way, I don’t feel like explaining myself, so go back and try to practice your reading comprehension on my post, buddy.

Banging a board of nails into one's chest fun and games?Yea I wanna play that game too

Looking like a pirate in my photos? Yeah, I want to have that hair cut too Don’t worry about what I do to my body, and I wont worry about what you do to yours, OK? It is fun because of the adrenalin rush. You know, chemicals going to your brain to alter your mood? You know all about that, I am sure, so you have no right to judge others
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I didn’t say they allow people personal issues to become cops. You are either not too bright or using Mike Moore tactics. Either way, I don’t feel like explaining myself, so go back and try to practice your reading comprehension on my post, buddy.

Oh now you are trying to call me stupid and unintelligent.Looks to me like I struck a nerve with you.You are just mad because I'm right.Who's allowing the recruits to become officers?Ummm not I so that leaves the department.Pure and simple.

As for the pirate remark, would you be referring to my icon?Just to let you know that's not me but it sounds to me like you dont like individuality.Wow thats perfect cop mentality.

[edit on 25-1-2005 by Drew Da General]

Drew Da General,

Anyone can spot a problem, but not everyone knows how to fix it. With that in mind....

Do you have a proposal on how to weed-out recruits who are trigger happy or those who are prone to panicking to the point where they cannot think on their feet??? Let's hear your proposal!!!

What kind of a training methodology to you propose to identify and eliminate unqualified applicants from becoming officers???

Originally posted by Drew Da General
Oh now you are trying to call me stupid and unintelligent.

I'm not trying to do anything. Are you trying to make yourself sound stupid and unintelligent? Although I agree with you that many cops are corrupt, and I feel myself that almost all LE and military are liars and backstabbers because of the whole constitution thing (and I do include myself in that, just something I have to deal with, I don’t justify my actions other than I like the job and I get paid) you are not making a very good case for it. In fact, you are doing more damage to the argument than good.

Looks to me like I struck a nerve with you.You are just mad because I'm right.

Know who says that? People with nothing else to say.

Who's allowing the recruits to become officers?Ummm not I so that leaves the department.Pure and simple.

Sure you are. The departments do their best (most of the time.) In the Las Vegas Metro Police Department (a huge and dangerous to work for agency) each hiring session picks up less than 200 recruits, but we get over 10,000 applicants. I would say that is a lot of screening. You don’t know for sure how someone is going to react to what they perceive as life threatening until you observe them in the situation. There is no way to train for it, you just have to do it and see it you still like the job. When bullets are flying past my face, I feel like time slows down and get real calm, almost too calm. I react very well; I don't break down until after the threat is gone. Because of this, I have come to believe it is my calling, simply what I am good at and enjoy. Others, through no fault of their own, cannot handle the stress. They will either hide, freeze-up (shellshock) or need to be told every little thing to do. You will never know what type of person you are until the # hits the fan, and unfortunately some people make mistakes when they don’t respond well. These people should resign from LE or military, after it has been determined by outside forces that they are not criminally liable. You just never know who those people will be, and you are often surprised when you find out.

As for the pirate remark, would you be referring to my icon?Just to let you know that's not me but it sounds to me like you dont like individuality.Wow thats perfect cop mentality.

I love individuality and personal liberty more than anything besides God and my family, FYI. I was trying (unsuccessfully, it seems) to make you understand that what people choose to do, whether it is growing out their hair or putting holes in each other with nails or ribbons is their own choice, and had nothing to do with the argument. There is nothing wrong with hazing so long as it is voluntary and not condoned by the agency.

It seems like you must have everything spelled out for you. If you have a learning disability let me know, and will try and make my posts easier for you to read. Thanks bud
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Nice to hear folks supporting the coppers coppers crime stopers! Those guys put their butts on the line every day all day

It comes as no surprise that those that don't like cops have a valid reason. They live thier lives outside the law and unlike the rest of us that do what we're supposed to do. They're bums.

In the mindset of most LEOs there are three types of people; cops, civilians, and dirt bags. I think this is a large part of the problem. Everyone is a civilian, some just don’t always do the right thing. Many cops try and approach a situation with the mindset of helping both the victim and the dirt bag, but that is the problem; the suspect is still the dirt bag. Remember, there is a fine line between civilian and dirt bag in this mentality, and at any given time you can fill either role. I think we need to go back to the idea of Peace Keepers, instead of Enforcement Officers.

I agree. I shouldn't have generalized. I just think that after a while you should find some harmony in your life and veer away from situations where you might be catorgorized by a cop as a dirt bag OR a civilian. How about that?