The Police Are Our Friends

Originally posted by Yxboom
Having the police is a necessary evil. If there were no law breakers, then there would be no need for police officers.

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Ill answer that with another simplistic statement.

"If there were not so many laws there would not be so many law breakers"

Well then, exactly when is it okay to use lethal force???
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Originally posted by Yxboom
Well then, exactly when is it okay to use lethal force???

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Thats the $64,000 question! It also applies (or should) to civilians.

If someone breaks into my home and threatens me with a weapon, the law (here) says, im justified in using "nessesary force to defend myself"
The problem is that "nessesary force" is unquantified and thus the onus is on the person to prove they feared for their life etc. The same should apply to police, but it seems that being a police officer in itself somehow better qualifies a person to judge that? based on the conviction rate or lack of, for police here who shoot civilians fataly. how is that so?

Obvious scenarios go without saying, such as a person holding another hostage at knife point and threatening to kill them, then lethal force to protect the life of that person is justified no?
A whole other issue is that of using lethal force to protect propertie in the case of security gaurds etc. In this case I think its never justified.

Use-of-force is a simple concept: use the minimum amount of force necessary.

If I'm a cop -- and if a man is waving a knife at me -- then it isn't going to be a nightstick day (for me). No No No. For me, it's going to be a gun day!!!

Posted by instar
If someone breaks into my home and threatens me with a weapon, the law (here) says, im justified in using "nessesary force to defend myself"
The problem is that "nessesary force" is unquantified and thus the onus is on the person to prove they feared for their life etc.

If the suspect who broke into your house is dead, then how is he going to testify against you???

Posted by instar
The same should apply to police.

The same standard does apply here (in Florida).

Posted by instar
It seems that being a police officer, in itself, somehow better qualifies a person to judge that? based on the conviction rate, or lack of, for police here who shoot civilians fataly. how is that so?

1. Most citizens who are involvolved in the shooting of a human were breaking the law and, hence, their use of a firearm put others in danger. Most of these violations start off as a robbery.

2. Most officers who are involved in the shooting of a human were responding to an armed and dangerous citizen and, hence, the officers use of a firearm was to protect and preserve his own life or the lives of others.

Posted by instar
A whole other issue is that of using lethal force to protect propertie in the case of security gaurds etc. In this case I think its never justified.

Armed guards are not allowed to shoot people for theft. That is a misnomer.

A lot of citizens don't know when they can -- or can't -- shoot someone. I had one old fellow who sincerely believed that if someone punched him, then he could shoot him in self-defense, but that simply isn't so.
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Having lived in a small town for years I have seen first hand the abuse of power by police,from getting away with driving drunk to harrassing citizens just for laughs or just because they are bored from it being a slow day or night.My brother and myself are victims of this only because my brother started dating one of the local cops ex girlfriends.We were unable to leave our apartment without being pulled over.My brother ended the relationship with a woman that he cared for very much all because some cop was jealous that his ex was with someone else.I moved out of the town for the fear that I would have to fight or even kill a cop to protect myself or my brother in the event they got out of hand.
This story is going on just across the river from me now.
www.ksdk.com...


There is also a story going on of 2 police officers that were killed in a head on collision.One officer was on duty the other was off duty,drunk,and driving on the wrong side of the road,but I can't find the link.Same news site as above.

Now I have met cops that are good people.I have even developed friendships with them,but the good ones are a minority no matter what anyone says.Cops will do almost anything to protect each other but if you go to them with a problem they can't help you until someone does you wrong..Which in many cases is too late.A family friend had to be beaten almost to death by her exhusband before the cops did anything although she made several trips to the sheriff's department to seek help..They told her to get a restraining order against him.That didn't help her from being blinded in one eye,didnt help stop her ribs from being broken.The cops knew this guy,knew he was dangerous and still did nothing to help until it was too late.I was asked to testify against three St.Louis county cops for their actions outside of the gas station I worked at.They allowed a drunk woman to stumble across the parking lot out into the street and was hit by a construction company's pickup.They completely falsified the report to what happened saying the lady took off running from them and ran out in front of the pickup.I called the cops to my store because the lady was so drunk she didn't know where she was at I was a witness and saw the whole thing.I called 911 for the ambulance.The three cops, two men one lady,Stood outside the entrance to the store and was laughing at this lady when she stumbled across the lot.A few months later the lady paid me a visit at the store wanting my side of the story because she didn't remember any of it.She showed me a copy of the report and the cops lied throughout the report including saying that there were no witnesses when they knew damn well I saw it all..For weeks after her lawyer and internal affairs( yes I know thats not what it's called anymore)asking me for my statement and wanting me to testify in court against the cops.After moving from the town I lived in What do you think my answer was?

And before anyone starts hackin on me I said not all cops are bad just the majority that is my opion from my own experiences.

[edit on 23-1-2005 by Simon_Boudreaux]

quote: Posted by instar
If someone breaks into my home and threatens me with a weapon, the law (here) says, im justified in using "nessesary force to defend myself"
The problem is that "nessesary force" is unquantified and thus the onus is on the person to prove they feared for their life etc.

If the suspect who broke into your house is dead, then how is he going to testify against you???

He's not but I will face police prosecution . State v's me.

quote: Posted by instar
A whole other issue is that of using lethal force to protect propertie in the case of security gaurds etc. In this case I think its never justified.

Armed guards are not allowed to shoot people for theft. That is a misnomer.

however they do. There was recent case here of a female security guard who had her bag stolen and she followed the perp and leaned in his car window and shot him point blank in the head. shes facing murder charges, rightly so.
Despite not being allowed to use lethal force to protect property, many companys use armed gaurds, which due to human fallibility often resutls in these cases.

[edit on 123131p://360112 by instar]

[edit on 123131p://380112 by instar]

You've got an amen here.

Like it was mentioned though, police are people with feelings and thoughts. They, like anyone, aren't perfect.

They've chosen a job that puts their lives at risk at any given moment. They've got to be on the alert. And smart-mouthed citizens that thinks it's funny giving the police a hard time deserves to treated harshly.

The police hasn't got time to put up with any BULL

[edit on 23/1/05 by Intelearthling]

Originally posted by Yxboom
Well then, exactly when is it okay to use lethal force???

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"One step up"

If someone starts throwing punches at a cop, s/he can use their baton (nightstick, ASP, etc). If the baton doesn't work, pepper spray/mace comes in to play.
If someone swings a club or throws an object, out comes the pepper spray/mace (if within range). Some departments are equipped with tasers for situations like this, too.
If a knife is visible and being used threateningly, an officer can generally use their gun. At close range, you can rarely dodge a stabbing, and kevlar vests do not protect against knives.
Drive a car at a cop? You're gonna get shot.
Pull a gun? Same deal.

A cop can't shoot someone who's throwing punches or kicks. That's not justified lethal force. It's a matter of if what that person is doing can kill the officer or a bystander.
Now, if you're taking stabs with a broken bottle ... yeah, you might find yourself with an extra hole in you. But why would you punch a cop? Or try to stab him/her?

Sometimes you run into situations where the standard level of force isn't working.
People on PCP are a notable example of this.
They can be punching, kicking & biting, have been pepper sprayed, and have 5 officers physically sitting on them to hold them down and they'll keep going.
What would you do in that situation?
There's a naked screaming guy trying to bite chunks out of your flesh, and hitting him with your nightstick hasn't made a bit of difference.
What would you do?

One of the most horrific stories I ever heard from my ex husband involved a "dusthead."
They got called code-3 (lights & sirens, get there NOW) to an apartment.
A naked man, covered in blood, was going absolutely nuts.
There was a toddler screaming in his mother's arms. Both were covered in blood.
The man immediately ran at the group of officers, threw himself on them, and began kicking and biting.
There were six officers there with more on the way.
The six couldn't subdue him. They hit him with their ASPs and/or flashlights. He kept trying to take chunks of skin.
They pepper sprayed him.
No effect.
More pepper spray.
Still no effect.
All six officers were sitting on this man, kneeling on his arms, trying not to lose body parts.
Backup finally arrived, and it took nearly a dozen men & women to get him cuffed and hogtied.

Here comes the important part, so pay attention.

When the dust cleared and they could get to the little boy and his mother.....
they discovered the man had bitten his child's tongue clean off.
HE BIT HIS OWN SON'S TONGUE OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND SWALLOWED IT.

What would you have done?

Originally posted by BasementAddix
You obviously new here...im an Officer...

can you arrest george bush? i KNOW he's a huge criminal. sherman skolnick has the paperwork for you.

By the way guys...I said earlier tonight that I HAD to work in this blizzard we got here in NYC...and 2 of my fellow officers got into a car accident tonight...on the expressway....some schmuck in a rush at 5 am decides he wants to ride the rmp's butt (cop car)...and then loses control and rear ended my friends/co-workers...the rmp is pretty damaged (rear end and the front after hitting a guard rail)...but THANK GOD my friends seem to be ok and just got minor neck injuries...and for all you guys who claim cops are "racist"....one is chinese...the others korean...and we work in a predominately hispanic area...hope all the cop haters here slept well last night....

Originally posted by me again

Anyways, can I hear an amen for the police???

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No.

Most of them in the UK spend their time standing around in shops drinking coffee. In my town they even have some riding "mountain bikes". Waste of time and money. I've met lots of them socially and I've only ever met one or two that weren't obviously corrupt.

Amen to the good ones.

All the others should be put in prison.

....some schmuck in a rush at 5 am decides

How come you cops/ buddies stories always start with "some schmuck"?
So much for respect for public. Maybe the poor guy was riding close because he was driving in a blizzard and couldnt see? Maybe he was just tryin to make it home to his family safely?

Originally posted by instar

....some schmuck in a rush at 5 am decides

How come you cops/ buddies stories always start with "some schmuck"?
So much for respect for public. Maybe the poor guy was riding close because he was driving in a blizzard and couldnt see? Maybe he was just tryin to make it home to his family safely?

Ok...so at 5 am...on an icey highway....you ride up someones rear?...The roads are well lit and by 5am it was more of a light snow then anything else...most normal people wouldnt do the above mearly for safety sake...but for some reason ive noticed people in SUV's...in the snow...act like nothings going on...as was the case here...If it was "some poor guy"..I wouldnt have used schmuck when discribing him...

So was it a light snow or a blizzard, make up your bloody mind!
Most people will discern a difference.

Originally posted by instar
So was it a light snow or a blizzard, make up your bloody mind!

Most people will discern a difference.

We had a blizzard (12 inches last I checked) up until about 3am...so we did have a significant amount of snow...it became lighter at about 3....its 9am now...and still a light snow...my point...no reason to drive UNSAFELY in this condition...is it worth rushing somewhere in this weather just to make it somewhere 10 minutes earlier?...You tell me...2 friends of mine are now getting check out medically because of it...

So hes a schmuck? not maybe an inexperienced driver? not maybe a very tired driver? not maybe a driver who's lost the confidence to drive in hazardous conditions? Why judge so harshly? you give no details about the driver or what happened or what he said , other than labelling him/her a schmuck.

sounds like a one sided story.

Originally posted by instar
So hes a schmuck? not maybe an inexperienced driver? not maybe a very tired driver? not maybe a driver who's lost the confidence to drive in hazardous conditions? Why judge so harshly? you give no details about the driver or what happened or what he said , other than labelling him/her a schmuck.

sounds like a one sided story.

all of the above explanations youve just mentioned are more of a reason why he shouldnt NOT have been driving at 5am in the snow...

And why was he? going home from work? to work? People have lives to live, sometimes you cant be perfectly sensible, guy cant control the weather.

Quick question...How would you describe the person who just hit you in the same way?...Theres a hell of alot worse things then schmuck...

Originally posted by Chakotay
No Shots. I want you to understand that when I pin on a badge and strap on a gun with the full authority of the State behind me, my role is not to be your friend.

Well I sure will not be able to get that from a Sci Fi movie can I? Most movies are fiction nothing more, especially Sci Fi's and tend to blow things way out of proportion as you are trying to do.

I happen to think that the majority of Police are not as corrupt as you contend; perhaps you have been watching far to many sci fi movies, perhaps you are like a few other posters around here that want to spread hatred and that is wrong.