Why are you so afraid of the socialist society?

a reply to: ketsuko

Actually, doing math homework right now.

Not ignoring you

a reply to: maplecustom

There is a huge difference between Norway and the United States. In fact about 312 million differences between our two countries. The population of the United States is close to 318 million souls while the population of Norway is closer to a very liberal 6 million. The social dogma which works in a democratic country like Norway would not work the same here, so comparing the two just does not compute.

Socialism has failed so many times that I really could not find a successful example among a very long list of self described failures, it is flawed just as other types of government are because of the human factors. Even in Socialist governments there are tiers, those who have and those who do not. The U.S. has many socialist programs in our Republic forum of government, and it is certainly not perfect but it is a work in progress.

Socialism in a nut shell is an idea of sharing. Anyone who has spent time watching children and adults knows that sharing is a fine idea as long as I am not using it at the time you want to use it. In that case you can't have it. Its not a bad idea but flawed like every idea because of how humans wield it. And in many cases, you can't have it even if I am not using it because as soon as I see you want it, I want it.

Over the years, the United States has moved toward the adoption of more Socialist ideas but most have failed because of the shear size and scope of what the ideas attempted to change. For me, I would rather see a bigger push towards a true Democracy where individuals vote on the outcome, but you still have the same problem, the haves and have not's because there is always someone who does not get their turn.

a reply to: DJMSN

Oh the population isn't the largest issue to deal with.

It's the people. Those countries, are predominantly homogeneous. They don't have large swaths of people from different backgrounds or color. Sweden is about as white as any country can get, and they allow virtually 0 immigration.

Everything works great when everybody has the same looks, values and ideas about how things are run.

But you can't take those systems, at least not in their entirety and apply them to melting pot type demographics.

Everything just falls down.

~Tenth

a reply to: maplecustom

I am very curious to know why some of you are so incre

The real short answer to that is indoctrination, screaming at us from every corner, school, church, tv that Communism, i.e., socialism is evil.

Ideology runs deep.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Just wonder...do you have any children of your own?

originally posted by: maplecustom

Living in Norway, a country where society is based on socialist dogmas I will happily try to answer any questions you have of it all and debate to the best of my abilities.

How much of your GDP is devoted to invading countries in the Middle East? How much does your country pay out in foreign aid? On a scale of 1 - 10, how would you rate the level corruption in your government?

Almost any form of government is fine if it is run by people with integrity. When it's not, some are much worse than others.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I agree with you but it is much easier to pay for say healthcare for a population of 6 million as opposed to 300 million. And I believe with the recent influx of immigrates from the middle east, they will soon come to understand what differences there are in a melting pot society and the results will most likely not be good in the long run.

originally posted by: BlueJacket
a reply to: tothetenthpower

Just wonder...do you have any children of your own?

I have 4 children, 3 adopted. 2 in University, one in Middle school and the other is just in elementary. My two eldest were home schooled till 14, then chose to go to public schools, my two others are private, their choice.

~Tenth

originally posted by: DexterRiley
a reply to: infolurker

But are the issues with the VA based on its "socialist nature?" Or is it because of its unbelievable level of bureaucracy?

As I understand it, some of the top level officials at the VA actually performed criminal acts. Yet because of their bureaucracy they are having difficulty firing them.

-dex

LOL, you almost got it!

Socialist nature and unbelievable level of bureaucracy are the mutually inclusive!

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Excellent. ..before I can consider peoples opinions on education, I have to ask...I hope you appreciate where that came from.

originally posted by: DJMSN
a reply to: tothetenthpower

I agree with you but it is much easier to pay for say healthcare for a population of 6 million as opposed to 300 million. And I believe with the recent influx of immigrates from the middle east, they will soon come to understand what differences there are in a melting pot society and the results will most likely not be good in the long run.

Yeah it does cost more, but not if you look at it from a per capita basis. Doing health care relatively cheap is possible, as long as you don't hand the reigns to the insurance companies. That's the issue in the US, healthcare is for profit, not for actual health care.

~Tenth

a reply to: maplecustom

The problem is rarely the form of government but more the intentions behind the government and those governed.

I'll give you another reason why I am not happy at the idea of socialism. I was reading an article posted to MSN a week or two ago about the problem with white people (well that wasn't it exactly but that was what it boiled down to) and one of the most troubling quotes in it had to do with how white people are so angry because they don't like how their cushy middle class existences have eroded, but that it's only fair they be brought down to experience what the rest of non-white America lives through.

This is part of the problem with socialism. People who like the idea of it seem to be mostly motivated by a place of greed themselves no matter how much they couch their arguments in so-called compassion speak. They see others who have what they do not, and they think socialism is the means by which those things they don't have will be taken and given to them in the name of "fair."

But sometimes, the mask slips and little more and you see the truth which is that even they understand that socialism does not lift people up. As the quote in question says, white Middle Class American needs to be brought down, not we need to be lifted up to their level. We need them brought down.

And that's what it ends up doing, bringing everyone down to a lower level, a lowest common denominator, because socialist advocates understand that they cannot make everyone equally wealthy, they can only make everyone equally miserable.

However, if you look at every socialist society out there, you will always find those who take their advantage of the system and still end up fabulously wealthy.

a reply to: maplecustom

So an interesting point has been made. And that is that socialism and bureaucracy go hand-in-hand.

The US has about 22 million government employees at the federal, state, and local levels. The federal government can't even produce any numbers concerning the actual number of government contract employees.

How does that compare to the size of your government?

-dex

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: DJMSN

Oh the population isn't the largest issue to deal with.

It's the people. Those countries, are predominantly homogeneous. They don't have large swaths of people from different backgrounds or color. Sweden is about as white as any country can get, and they allow virtually 0 immigration.

Everything works great when everybody has the same looks, values and ideas about how things are run.

But you can't take those systems, at least not in their entirety and apply them to melting pot type demographics.

Everything just falls down.

~Tenth

That, right there is the big elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. Americans also virtually have a caste system, even if they refuse to acknowledge it. No one wants to share with someone of "lower status".

a reply to: maplecustom

I'm not afraid of a socialist society in is purest form. I'm afraid of the people who who will be running it cause like every other system it's doomed to corruption and never works as intended

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: DJMSN

Oh the population isn't the largest issue to deal with.

It's the people. Those countries, are predominantly homogeneous. They don't have large swaths of people from different backgrounds or color. Sweden is about as white as any country can get, and they allow virtually 0 immigration.

Everything works great when everybody has the same looks, values and ideas about how things are run.

But you can't take those systems, at least not in their entirety and apply them to melting pot type demographics.

Everything just falls down.

~Tenth

Americans also virtually have a caste system, even if they refuse to acknowledge it. No one wants to share with someone of "lower status".

I don't feel that way. Born and raised here.

Seems to me, more of an every one does their own thing. But, still everyone should have basic needs.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

No, more like we want those of lower status to raise themselves up if they are capable of it, and many of them are.

Socialism tears down; it does not build up.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: MystikMushroom

No, more like we want those of lower status to raise themselves up if they are capable of it, and many of them are.

That's closer to it.

America is a prosperous country. Everyone has an opportunity.

I think most want everyone to have basic needs. But, support "hand ups" not "hand outs".

a reply to: Annee

We have high status, mid status, low status...and even our own version of "untouchables" here in America. 30 years ago I'd say social mobility was indeed very possible, but today if you're born into a low status poverty...good freakin' luck. And it's getting exponentially worse each year that goes by. As the wealth continues to consolidate at the top tiers and eschelons of society, fewer and fewer opportunities for advancement (actual good paying jobs) present themselves. There can only be so many doctors, lawyers, engineers, ect ... there are only so many positions that people with higher education can fill. Our population continues to grow, and yet the demand for these positions is not growing proportionally to match.

So you have on one hand a widening wealth gap, and on the other a shrinking supply of highly skilled, high paying jobs with an increasing population.

If you throw in robots, automation, computers and possibly AI -- we're going to have to revert to some kind of socialism to keep people alive. America will look like the slums in "Slumdog Millionaire" if we don't figure out a way to give people something to do and some reasonable way to provide for themselves.