Why are you so afraid of the socialist society?

Oh lord, the Horatio Alger myths...

You know that "bootstrap" crap was just post Civil War propaganda to keep newly freed slaves from rioting and revolting, right? It served to inspire and give hope that they too could rise to the top just like anyone else. All they had to do was work really hard and maybe have a rich benefactor step in and give them their lucky shot...

Yeah, that's where all of that hard work/bootstrap/American Dream stuff came from...it didn't exist prior to that. Those buzzwords and that whole entire idea wasn't a part of America until those stories were written and widely circulated.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

Yeah, that's where all of that hard work/bootstrap/American Dream stuff came from...it didn't exist prior to that. Those buzzwords and that whole entire idea wasn't a part of America until those stories were written and widely circulated.

I dunno.

Seems to still be the general feel IMO.

a reply to: DJMSN

so if you have a basket with 10 apples in it and one with 5 apples in it it somehow ceases to be a basket?

I think it has been proven that Communism leads to overt disaster, but unfortunately I think capitalism ultimately leads to
a subtle enslavement.

I think the key is in a hybrid system where things like energy, gas and healthcare are provided without room for much profit. I also think the banking system should be turned on its head and that new money should be introduced into the economy through the public, NOT private banks. Otherwise we get what have today, and abusive and completely corrupt government that is controlled by the wealthiest.

In fact, I think in the far off future, everybody should be given the same amount of money each year and people can choose how much excess money they want to earn each year. This would be a great way to keep the notions of the left and right alive, people do not starve to death and they are still free to earn a billion dollars.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

So someone of sound mind and body should just be able to sit back on his or her butt and collect everything without any effort of his or her own?

And how much should my own standard of living be brought down in the process of making sure this happens because you cannot bring this wastrel up enough, not with as many of them as there are relative to how many people actually work for a living.

Collectivism can only work when it's not controlled by a government. Commune, kibbutz, etc. A small group of voluntary members who are ambitious, honest, selfless to join, contribute, and share of their own volition.

When you add in govt enforced "equality "fairness" "sharing" it's always fouled by the bums, cheats, liars, thieves.

And especially by those who seek the power to run the thing. In collectivism, any variant, they have power that can't be controlled or reeled back in, they never give it up, and they live more opulently than any King or CEO. Corruption and favoritism is unavoidable.

That's why the founders of America said let's do this -

-No collectivism
-No royalty
-No theocracy
-Smallest govt possible that can be functional / useful
-Maximum individual rights, to the point of "sink or swim"
-Competitive capitalism
-Unrestrained private property, capital, trade
-Values based society (just happened to be Judeo-Christian)

This is the only recipe ever devised to deny the possibility of fascism or anarchy.

But there are a lot of people out there who hate it, because they are foolish enough to believe marx's fairy tale, which is absolutely impossible to exist among humans. But marxism has certainly proven to be a great vehicle to seize power over the foolish dreamers. Even Hitler used a variation of it.

a reply to: maplecustom

Welcome. And personally, I think socialism is the only possibility of survival.

But you will get few 'US Citizens' to forgo their self-centered interest for the common welfare. They (us - urg) never learn just how dependent we are on one another and how each individual fairs best in a community that puts the welfare of the before the indiviudal's desires.

Thank you for participating.

Am i the only one that thinks it odd, that socialism is generalized as a free hand out welfare state? When its more diverting what the government spends our money on, to directly benefit its very own citizens?

how the gop gets labeled conservative is also rubbish... if we pay roughly the same taxes, and also have to buy our healthcare and education etc etc that is privatized or they want too... then who the hell is saving more anything, other than opportunities for themselves and the select few that can afford... something that in an equal and free society should be a right?

would I rather trillions of taxes go to war, famine, death and greed? or trillions to remove that blight? the simple fact is it wouldnt take those never ending trillions to remove that blight for those needing healthcare and education that would be a benefit to ALL society in the long run unlike the current mode of government.

which is ethically worse for society? war out of fear and the ignorance that keeps fanning flames that have been burning since the worlds been turning? or tolerance from a healthy educated society that tries to prevent it by example?

If anyone hasnt made a resolution for the new year... might I suggest to quit equating specific parties as liberal or conservative? as liberal means more individual freedom and conservative means fiscal economic expendature in politics... not some generalized bastard child of ignorance taken to mean morality leanings... btw which is also unbaised as far as party lines go. sorry for the mini rant... but im not just speaking for myself about this subject of liberal and conservative business.

I do not like socialism, because in these systems no sacrifice is ever enough, they always want more and more.

And if anyone ever stands up and says, " I can't and don't want to give anymore ", then this person is labeled a fool or a hater, a selfish-oppressor too silly to realize his transgressions and debts to their society.

And if anyone dare to question their direction, their social interactions are monitored on the internet, and any form of opposition is erased and deemed as hate speech.

And you don't get to decide, you are brainwashed from youth....just look at these poor Swedish children being brainwashed with ideology they did not choose, but was forced onto them...

www.youtube.com...

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DexterRiley

The American public school system is a good example of a nearly 100% socialized system.

So is the US military.

~Tenth

I am all for cutting that socialist program. Let the warmongers pay for their own damn wars.

I only agree to fund a military that defends the US.

originally posted by: maplecustom
Hello friends. I am very curious to know why some of you are so incredibly negative towards the idea of a socialist approach to sosiety in the US? Reading posts here on ATS i find most of your opinions and meanings towards how it really works, and would work for you guys, to be filled with an astounding amount of fear of it all.

Do you think the government would just take over everything and dictate your say in every matter? Tax you into the ground? Give you free healthcare, free education and restrict your opportunities for Success?

Living in Norway, a country where society is based on socialist dogmas I will happily try to answer any questions you have of it all and debate to the best of my abilities.

Your answers are useless to us. You live in a homogeneous country with the population of one city here in the US. There is no comparison. What's good for 5 million white people of the same culture might be a little different for 350 million with many different cultures.

a reply to: maplecustom

Norway is interventionist like every other western economy, it is neither capitalist nor socialist. Capitalism is a free market economy which Norway is not and socialism is state ownership of the means of production which it also isn't.

What people mean when say that they want "democratic" socialism in the US is that they want more invasive socioeconomic interventions across a greater cross section of society and less individual freedom.

Ultimately, despite the incessant irrelevant vitriol hurled back and forth, this is an economic question that requires an answer, not a compromise. Economies can be either free or planned, not both.

The negative features associated with the economy are outcomes produced by interventionist government policies. Yet, those problems are constantly attributed to capitalism (the free market) as evidence of the necessity to further interfere with people's economic decisions.

If it works for you, maybe you should become a socialism and report back your results. Otherwise, if the destructive effects of interventionism become apparent, maybe you should consider the free market.

What has to stop is the false attribution of the caveats of interventionist policy to the free market.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: maplecustom

I don't believe it's necessarily fear that drives people against socialism. It's the notion that people want to keep what they earn. There's nothing wrong with that notion either. I believe that there is three areas where socialism should be a necessity: food, water, and shelter. I believe everyone should be able to have food, a place to call home, and access to water. Outside of those three things, free market capitalism is key. If you want that 60" curved OLED TV, then go work for it. If you want that $50k dollar BMW, then go work for it. If you want the 4,000 square foot home with a hot tub and in-ground pool, then work for it.

We have basic necessities and luxuries. The luxuries should never be subsidized.

Why? Why do you believe that people have a right to food, a home, and water? People have a right, imo, to be free to pursue these things unimpeded, sure. Does that mean we are obligated to provide for those that refuse to do this? Not in my mind, in fact I find the idea comical.

Norway a society which is a very well to do homogeneous culture with no underclass. Also has huge oil reserves to fall back on. population centered in a small area. 1/4 in greater olso. rest cities coastal areas.
population slightly smaller than colorado.

BUT the secret is not just free markets for quality of living
It is private property rights which trumps all.
And Norway ranks....#2.
cited-The international private property rights index 2015

Yes "socialist heaven" ranks number #2 in the central tenet for capitalism.

This really just means the other countries are lying about how capitalist they actually are.

scandinavia, asian city states, canada, and australia usually the dominate the rankings. makes sense.

originally posted by: maplecustom
...
Living in Norway, a country where society is based on socialist dogmas I will happily try to answer any questions you have of it all and debate to the best of my abilities.

I have a better idea... Why in the hell are you so interested in bringing socialism to America?... If you are happy with how your society is ran, good for you.

But what is this need of some people to claim their way of life is better than others and that everyone should emulate them?...

Americans in general do not want to emulate ANY European countries, or ANY other country. You choose what you want to, we have our own way of life.

Can't you just accept and respect the fact that not everyone in the world is the same, and would not agree that "your idea of socialism" is a good idea in some other country such as the U.S.?...

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
So is the US military.

~Tenth

Sorry but no... The U.S. military is not a socialist program... Just because a country has a standing army for protection doesn't make it socialist. Do living in a society makes everyone socialist?... NO... These claims some socialists make are incredibly insane. Trying to push for socialism by claiming everything is socialist...

originally posted by: DexterRiley
Can you define what a socialist society actually is? There is a lot of confusion in the US about what socialism actually means. Many people believe that socialism and communism are interchangeable.

-dex

a socialist society by our standards is a society where all working people pay relatively high tax based on the amount of income you have. I pay about 35%. That money coming from tax goes to all parts of the wellfare society. Roands, schools, health etc. Also we believe in strong education for everyone. Universities and colleges are all basicaly free. We DO have private schools, if you choose and think they are a better choise, allthough for the most part they are not, or they are worse.

The same goes for health, you can choose to have health insurance on top of ehats allredy provided for you, but you really dont need one living day to day. Traveling abroad you do. You get sick or need a surgery while in the country, the best of care will bee provided for you.

We elect parties and not candidates the same way you do. Ofcourse every partie has a leafing candidate but its much more evolved around the party as a whole and what they waant to achieve by beeing in power.

Im very buisy at the moment, but will bee back later!

originally posted by: nOraKat
The problem is rarely the form of government but more the intentions behind the government and those governed.

originally posted by: EightTF3
I'm not afraid of a socialist society in is purest form. I'm afraid of the people who who will be running it cause like every other system it's doomed to corruption and never works as intended

OP, the key to understanding the answer to your questions lies in the two responses above...

Disraeli once said:

"Governments do not govern, but merely control the machinery of government, being themselves controlled by the hidden hand." ~ Benjamin Disraeli; Prime Minister of England

It doesn't matter what type of political system is in place if those who are hiding behind it are hell bent on tyranny.

“Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to befoul the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.”— Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States

originally posted by: pyramid head

originally posted by: maplecustom
Hello friends. I am very curious to know why some of you are so incredibly negative towards the idea of a socialist approach to sosiety in the US? Reading posts here on ATS i find most of your opinions and meanings towards how it really works, and would work for you guys, to be filled with an astounding amount of fear of it all.

Do you think the government would just take over everything and dictate your say in every matter? Tax you into the ground? Give you free healthcare, free education and restrict your opportunities for Success?

Living in Norway, a country where society is based on socialist dogmas I will happily try to answer any questions you have of it all and debate to the best of my abilities.

Your answers are useless to us. You live in a homogeneous country with the population of one city here in the US. There is no comparison. What's good for 5 million white people of the same culture might be a little different for 350 million with many different cultures.

If you find my answers to your questions useless, that is perfectly fine to me. I dont state to have the right ones i can only contribute to the debate by giving my point of view. Ofcourse one cant compare norway to the US when it comes to culture and population numbers. And we are not 5 million white vikings."We" are germans, americans, muslims, hindu, pakistanis, afgans, etc etc, all providing for each others wellfare through contributing.

It is mainly conserning basic needs. School and health. By providing these for "free" individuals less fortunate may still be able to get the education and health service they need without the horrible economic punch in the face it would otherwhise bee.

If one really wants to have a clear understanding of socialism one only needs to look at who is behind it and see what the REAL agenda behind it is.

Just like everything else in life, things are NOT always what they appear to be.

My advice: forget everything you have been told.

Komov believes that if you “dig deep enough into the ideological roots of these socialist movements, you end up finding satanic roots in them.” And although only a softer version is prevalent now, “it is still very dangerous,” he says. “I would warn all those people fascinated by socialist ideas that they have never worked in human history — never worked.” Alexey Komov

Roots of Socialism
Evil Roots Of Socialism

The real motive behind Communism is not to distribute the world equally, but the Communist Party is just a front for the super-rich as an instrument for gaining and using power. It is not the Communists that run Communism. There is yet another controlling power behind Communism. Communism and socialism are just arms of the more devilish conspiracy working behind the public eye that is not being run from Moscow or Peking, but from New York, Paris and London.

These are very serious and dangerous times. This is a very serious and dangerous movement that has been working politically and socially since the French Revolution to destroy the world.

'Pandora's Box - The Ultimate "Unseen Hand" Behind the New World Order

Communism is not a movement to help the downtrodden people of the world, but Communism is actually being run today by capitalists, the very people who control the wealth of the world that Communism is supposedly fighting against. Very few Americans know that Karl Marx was a correspondent and political analyst for Horace Greeley who controlled and managed the New York Times newspaper.

The Illuminati going to America

Communism is a monopoly over everything, including thought, enforced by the "State." The "State" is a front for the Illuminati Jewish central bankers who own its debt. Anything that increases "State" power is Communist. World government will take this to the next level. Most people think Communism is an ideology dedicated to championing workers and the poor.

This was an incredibly successful ruse which manipulated millions. Behind this artifice, "Communism" is devoted to concentrating all wealth and power in the hands of the central banking cartel (the Rothschilds and their allies) by disguising it as State power.

What is "Communism" ?