Why are you so afraid of the socialist society?

Here you are in a country with something over 5 million souls, not exactly "ethnically diverse" in any meaningful way, with a large cache of oil revenues to pull from, and you've created this socialist paradise. Ask yourself: How did the largest socialist countries get that way?

How about the USSR (may she rest in peace). How did all those farms get "collectivized?" How did they get all those farmers to willingly give up the land they had farmed for generations "for the good of the people?"

They killed about 10 million people.

How about the People's Republic of China? How did they "go socialist" after so many years?

They killed about 20 million people.

When you look at the history of socialism--and there are exceptions--the general population does not go there willingly. They are forced to go there, and if they won't, they get killed. And if you look beyond the borders of Norway, what you see in socialist takeovers are totalitarian governments where people's rights are ignored.

The Berlin Wall, for example, wasn't created to keep people from entering this socialist worker's paradise. It was built to keep people from leaving. And the people who tried were shot. In Cuba, the socialist government took over $25 billion worth of assets from the people. It's not as if everything were owned by foreign corporations. And people left Cuba in droves. I know some of them, who have told about the depravity and inequities they suffered at the hands of the Castro regime.

So if socialism is so grand, why do people flee it? And why are totalitarian governments necessary to enforce it? And why is it necessary to kill millions of people to implement it? Don't look at the textbooks extolling socialist virtues; look at the people who were killed because they did not want to go there.

a reply to: ketsuko

How many years ago?

I was able to graduate before the Dept of Ed took too much control away from local and state government. Not long after Jimmy Carter created them.

-dex

a reply to: DexterRiley

You mention private and chartered schools. Would there be no public schools? There are certain segments of the population that would never attend school unless they were forced to do so.

A chartered school is in essence, a public school, the difference being that the company or educators running it, are held liable for the performance of the children. This fosters an environment where both the children & the educators, have a stake in making sure that a quality education is being given.

It's publicly funded, privately run.

Currently in our public school system, if a child isn't doing well, we blame the child. In the system I'm proposing, we first look at whether the educator has the tools and the necessary teaching style for that child in particular.

Actual private schools will always exist as there's a huge market for that kind of education ( in the form of boarding schools and religious organizations for example) and the quality of education in those places is usually quite high.

This is a direct result of the caliber of educator they can attract by paying higher wages and providing good benefits, all the while maintaining that the educators are responsible for the quality of education, not the other way around.

~Tenth

originally posted by: paradoxious

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DexterRiley

The American public school system is a good example of a nearly 100% socialized system.

So is the US military.

~Tenth

Its members volunteer for that, and can opt out once their contract has expired, or opt to re-enlist.

I meant the general function and funding of the US Military is as socialist as it gets. One single entity protecting the entire country, as opposed to hiring multiple groups for example ( such as PMC's) makes it a socialist system.

~Tenth

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Really? I am currently sending mine to a private school. They are a small shoestring operation. None of their instructors are highly paid. They are well educated however and teach because their own kids are in the school.

The success of a private school has to do with a mix of things:

1.) Engaged parents - you better be for the price
2.) Better ability to dictate disciplinary terms and enforce them than public schools
3.) Educator quality
4.) More freedom in curriculum and pedagogical approach than public schools
5.) Typically smaller class sizes (our son has 12 and will have no more than 20, ever)

a reply to: ketsuko

We already have the means to pay for it.

It would cost about $20 billion for the government to effectively eliminate homelessness in the United States, a Housing and Urban Development official told the New York Times on Monday.

U.S. Could End Homelessness With Money Used To Buy Christmas Decorations

In fiscal year 2015, the federal budget is $3.8 trillion.

Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go

That source also breaks down the different areas that our tax money goes to. I don't have a problem with a small portion of my tax money going to end homeless and hunger. $598 billion on defense, $66 billion on Medicare and health, and not to mention the $63 billion already going into HUD. Maybe we pull the money from the budget of HUD and actually do something productive with it instead of all the kickbacks.

The largest share of HUD's budget goes toward rental subsidies for low-income tenants. There are about $1 billion in erroneous and fraudulent overpayments of these subsidies each year, according to the GAO.

Fraud and Abuse in Federal Programs


We have the ability to end those issues for chump change when compared to the overall budget. We just don't have the will.

originally posted by: paradoxious

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: DexterRiley

The American public school system is a good example of a nearly 100% socialized system.

So is the US military.

~Tenth

Its members volunteer for that, and can opt out once their contract has expired, or opt to re-enlist.

If you qualify to sign up, you can show up with nothing but the clothes on your back, and have all your basic needs cared for during your entire enlistment.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

That's a good point. I'm surprised people haven't been yelling to privatize the military...people love the idea of privatizing things until they do...

originally posted by: maplecustom


Living in Norway, a country where society is based on socialist dogmas I will happily try to answer any questions you have of it all and debate to the best of my abilities.

No mater what any of us think we know about socialism You live with it. Please tell us, Do you feel like the money you make is less than the work you put in? What are the school systems like? Tell us about yourself. What size house do you have? How much for rent? What's the road system like? Transportation? What are the laws regarding land ownership? Gun ownership?
When you are with your friends do they talk more about not liking the state of things? Do they like their jobs and the money they make? Are they happy? Are you happy? What other country would you like to live in?
Please try and answer all of my questions honestly. ty

It's all fear mongering by news pundits on radio and TV.

As Americans, we all value Freedom and our constitution over all. Except that the constitution doesn't cover it all and we already have some good and bad Socialism/socialist programs in the US.

We all agree that our K-12 education system needs some work, but if you just took it away, our country would tank fast. It's fun to say we'd all home school our children and take them to private schools but I don't have the time or the money and neither do 90% of Americans. What should I do with my kids? If I quit my job to teach them I won't make any money and won't be able to afford a house. My wife and I both have to work. If one of us stayed home, we could kiss our savings, houses, cars and Internet and everything else good bye. And I'm better off then most Americans. How would poor people survive.

We all agree that we don't like paying for lazy people that decide not to work but if we did away with Obama Care, Medicaid, Medicare, Welfare and unemployment, we'd have millions of dead people and homeless people clutter up our sidewalks and emergency rooms. We don't really want that do we?

We also give Billions of Dollars to corporations. That's corp[rate Welfare. We don't really want that do we?

Ignorance. We should deny it.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: tothetenthpower

Really? I am currently sending mine to a private school. They are a small shoestring operation. None of their instructors are highly paid. They are well educated however and teach because their own kids are in the school.

The success of a private school has to do with a mix of things:

1.) Engaged parents - you better be for the price
2.) Better ability to dictate disciplinary terms and enforce them than public schools
3.) Educator quality
4.) More freedom in curriculum and pedagogical approach than public schools
5.) Typically smaller class sizes (our son has 12 and will have no more than 20, ever)

Those are all good points, and I should have painted with less of a broad brush, I agree.

You're right, there are smaller outfits that can even outperform the larger, more wealthy chartered or private schools and I would imagine it 's a combination of both of the parents and the educator's involvement and commitment to the child's education.

~Tenth

a reply to: Annee

People keep saying this.

But, I'm finding public school far more demanding today then a few years ago.

What is expected in first grade now blows me away. Its all academic. There's very little in nonsense peripherals.

Yes, I guess the notion that "things were better back in my day" is rather common. People tend to think that the old days were better.

I'm not too familiar with elementary school education these days. I know that the new education theory, Common Core, is rather foreign to most parents. However there are some elements that do remind me of a few things we did all those years ago.

I'm a bit more familiar with high school though. I have found it difficult to have conversations with some high school kids, as well as recent graduates, that lead me to believe that today's standards are not as high as they once were.

-dex

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: tothetenthpower

That's a good point. I'm surprised people haven't been yelling to privatize the military...people love the idea of privatizing things until they do...

The only reason this hasn't happened is because there is a conglomerate of DOD contractors who already have a monopoly on all the work that isn't directly related to combat.

They don't intend on fixing or changing for that matter, a system that serves them very, very well.

~Tenth

a reply to: EternalSolace

You don't understand the sucking black hole caused by government stepping in to make things "affordable" then. Government did that with college and look at how that has helped.

When government intrudes in a market by helping some pay for a good or commodity, those who look to snag that share of the market (government subsidy) are under little constraint in their pricing. They know that no matter what happens, government will always pay because it has the deepest pockets around. So there is no price constraint on the market anymore and pretty soon those who could afford whatever it was, can no longer afford it without government help.

This is what is happening in the college market.

You make your assumptions with the idea that the market is a static thing that does not react or change, but it does.

Not only that but you sidestepped my question about those whose labor you will suborn producing those goods that everyone should have. If they have a right to what they earn, what happens when they spend all their time producing things no one should have to pay for?

What can they earn on something that costs nothing because it's a right?

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

A chartered school is in essence, a public school, the difference being that the company or educators running it, are held liable for the performance of the children. This fosters an environment where both the children & the educators, have a stake in making sure that a quality education is being given.

But, parents who fight to get their kids in Chartered or Private schools care. They are the driving force and will work with the kids to do their homework and get good grades.

I have 1st grade parents complaining the teachers aren't doing their job because the kids bring work home. The parents don't want to be bothered.

Just needed to make that point. Don't want to derail thread any more.

Part of the problem is that in the USA our taxes are too high and the benefits we get from them are next to nothing.

In some of the Scandinavian Countries where taxes are about the same as ours, maybe a little higher, they get Free Healthcare, K-12 education, College, Maternatiy leave and a few other perks, that we just don't get here.

But even if we decide as a nation that we don't want all that, part of Socialist ideals is what do we do with people that can't afford to live, can't afford home schooling or health insurance or mental health care or healthcare in general or addictions counceling or to pay for their funeral or they're disabled and can't even afford to live in any way. That's socialism.

Do we cut everyone off and let em die? Do you want that? If not you want socialism, but it's a matter of how much.

a reply to: ketsuko

I didn't ignore your question. For instance, If those in construction are paid out of the HUD budget, how are they not getting paid for their labor?

I also realize that the market isn't static and that people will inflate costs just to milk the government. I hinted at it when I said that we just don't have the will. It's pure greed that drives that. But that's a different topic.

a reply to: amazing

That's what a voucher program would do. You do understand that at the price we spend per year to educate a child, most parents could afford most private schools?

Heck, at one point a few years ago the DC Public schools were spending about $22,000/year on each student for one of the worst public educations in the US, and yet Sidwell Friends was about $4,000 to $8,000/year more expensive. You cannot tell me that there was only about $4,000 to $8,000 in difference between the education of Sidwell Friends where most of the DC elites (including Obama) send their kids and the horrific DC public schools where most barely learn to read.

I think the system I'd like to see is one modeled after France (I think?) and maybe some other European countries where the money the country would spend on a kid for the year is sent where the parents choose for the kid to go. Yes, it's a voucher. But the parents can go to any public or private or whatever so long as the school meets some basic standards.

The only reason we do not have this system is that people get up in arms about the whole ... But, you might send you kid to this or that school *I* don't approve of ... type flap. But if all the schools are meeting the basic standards, who cares what else they also learn and how they learn it all?

a reply to: ketsuko

1.) Engaged parents - you better be for the price

Parental involvement was one of the main points that came across to me when I visited my daughter's teachers in school. My wife and I seldom missed a parent-teacher conference. They would always complain that they never see the parents that they needed to see. The good students were the ones who had parents that considered themselves stakeholders in their children's future.

-dex

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

I didn't ignore your question. For instance, If those in construction are paid out of the HUD budget, how are they not getting paid for their labor?

I also realize that the market isn't static and that people will inflate costs just to milk the government. I hinted at it when I said that we just don't have the will. It's pure greed that drives that. But that's a different topic.

Again, where does the money come from? The HUD budget doesn't get picked off of money trees. Government produces nothing for itself. It only takes from those who do.