The Fox News 'War On Christmas' Panic Is Already Starting

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66
you really believe that?

no one if forcing anyone and one kid whines and you cave and claim things have always been this way.

If we do not stand up for the things that made us great then we fail and you are an advocate for failure by taking a blind view of the foundation. Oh but you are not alone.

It's not a matter of one kid whining (although, if you really believed in religious freedom, you'd respect his).

Its a matter of Christians having run rough shod over the rest of America for too long.

Christianity did not "make us great" ... neither did Nativity Scenes, Christian prayers in school, or any of the rest of that rot.

The Founders were clear. The Constitution is clear. No American has to "get over it" while a religion is established in the public square.

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

You need to go to the ACLU website and read up on what the actual position is on this under "free expression" in the religion in schools section. It's not about keeping Christianity out of the schools. It's about not having school (government) led prayers or indoctrination. Students still retain their individual rights to religious practice and expression--i.e. Christians can bring prayer mats if they want, too. Or have religious clubs organized by students. The ACLU defends those rights, too.

And if the student's preferred method of expression is a school play and a nativity scene?
.

Then they can arrange to use the school's facilities on the same terms as any other outside group. Or use a church or some other location.

This is not a group of students getting together on their own. This is school employees (government employees) organizing public school students in a religious ceremony. I'm not sure why you don't get this.

If you read other news reports some of the families opposed to this are afraid to speak on the record for fear of retaliation against themselves and their children which tells you a lot right there.

Just because a school received federal aid does not mean everyone there is a government employee. I know a lot of teachers and none of them work for the government.

But that is the extremist point of view. If the school receives one penny of federal aid then religion is out the window. That is not and never was what the constitution was meant to be and everyone knows it. That is the modern interpretation brought about by a combination of too many whiners and too many lawyers.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66
you really believe that?

no one if forcing anyone and one kid whines and you cave and claim things have always been this way.

If we do not stand up for the things that made us great then we fail and you are an advocate for failure by taking a blind view of the foundation. Oh but you are not alone.

It's not a matter of one kid whining (although, if you really believed in religious freedom, you'd respect his).

Its a matter of Christians having run rough shod over the rest of America for too long.

Christianity did not "make us great" ... neither did Nativity Scenes, Christian prayers in school, or any of the rest of that rot.

The Founders were clear. The Constitution is clear. No American has to "get over it" while a religion is established in the public square.

A school play is "establishing a religion"? Maybe some people really do need to just get over it...

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66
you really believe that?

no one if forcing anyone and one kid whines and you cave and claim things have always been this way.

If we do not stand up for the things that made us great then we fail and you are an advocate for failure by taking a blind view of the foundation. Oh but you are not alone.

It's not a matter of one kid whining (although, if you really believed in religious freedom, you'd respect his).

Its a matter of Christians having run rough shod over the rest of America for too long.

Christianity did not "make us great" ... neither did Nativity Scenes, Christian prayers in school, or any of the rest of that rot.

The Founders were clear. The Constitution is clear. No American has to "get over it" while a religion is established in the public square.

A school play is "establishing a religion"? Maybe some people really do need to just get over it...

Let's follow your train of logic ...

"A school play is establishing religion? Bah."

"Requiring prayer in school in Jesus' name is establishing religion? Bah."

"Requiring students to attend chapel every morning is establishing religion? Bah."

Yes, when the State acting through the School and School Board CHOOSES to enforce a Christian ritual on school property, using school resources, sponsored by school personnel ... yes, that is establishing the Christian religion.

"Just get over it" huh? LOL, so much for supposed religious freedom.

You and those like you don't want religious freedom, you want Christianity to reign supreme.

It isn't going to, not in America.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Teachers work for a School Board.

The School Board is part of the government if it is a public school.

Government is not just Federal, State, city, county, township, village, etc.

All levels of government are restricted from establishing a religion.

This is not new; it has been settled.

Know Your Rights. Religion in Public Schools

The United States Supreme Court has determined that schools may celebrate the holidays and create displays as long as they so do within “the context of the Christmas season” and the religious component of their display does not dominate but simply represents one element of a holiday that has obtained secular status in our society. Lynch v. Donnelly, 465.U.S. 668, 679, and 691 (1984). Under this ruling, a Christmas tree would be appropriate while a cross or a nativity scene would not. Crosses and nativity scenes are purely religious symbols that have not gained secular status in our society and therefore may not be displayed in public schools.

www.aclu-tn.org...

Can't make it more plain then that.

Moreover, in the note I posted earlier, it was clear that the School Board was given notice that the Nativity Scene should be left out of the performance due to constitutional issues.

Guess what, the School Board thumbed their nose at the Constitution.

Now, they get to waste the People's money defending a lawsuit they will lose.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

You need to go to the ACLU website and read up on what the actual position is on this under "free expression" in the religion in schools section. It's not about keeping Christianity out of the schools. It's about not having school (government) led prayers or indoctrination. Students still retain their individual rights to religious practice and expression--i.e. Christians can bring prayer mats if they want, too. Or have religious clubs organized by students. The ACLU defends those rights, too.

And if the student's preferred method of expression is a school play and a nativity scene?
.

Then they can arrange to use the school's facilities on the same terms as any other outside group. Or use a church or some other location.

This is not a group of students getting together on their own. This is school employees (government employees) organizing public school students in a religious ceremony. I'm not sure why you don't get this.

If you read other news reports some of the families opposed to this are afraid to speak on the record for fear of retaliation against themselves and their children which tells you a lot right there.

Just because a school received federal aid does not mean everyone there is a government employee. I know a lot of teachers and none of them work for the government.

What in the world are you talking about? EVERY employee of a public school from the superintendent down to the janitor works for the government. Public schools are run by the government. They are financed by taxes that are mandated by the government. Parents are mandated by the government to send their children there or finance a private alternative and if they don't they have to answer to the GOVERNMENT.

a reply to: DelMarvel

well, in a way they are right, there are many volunteers often times that devout some of their time in the schools....

and, well after looking into this one:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've got to say, they aren't interested in religious freedom and I'm done with it. Anybody, at least living in the United States should know that the public school system is part of the government and therefore the employees are hired by the gov't. But well, let's not let the facts get in the way of a good delusion I guess.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66
you really believe that?

no one if forcing anyone and one kid whines and you cave and claim things have always been this way.

If we do not stand up for the things that made us great then we fail and you are an advocate for failure by taking a blind view of the foundation. Oh but you are not alone.

It's not a matter of one kid whining (although, if you really believed in religious freedom, you'd respect his).

Its a matter of Christians having run rough shod over the rest of America for too long.

Christianity did not "make us great" ... neither did Nativity Scenes, Christian prayers in school, or any of the rest of that rot.

The Founders were clear. The Constitution is clear. No American has to "get over it" while a religion is established in the public square.

A school play is "establishing a religion"? Maybe some people really do need to just get over it...

Let's follow your train of logic ...

"A school play is establishing religion? Bah."

"Requiring prayer in school in Jesus' name is establishing religion? Bah."

"Requiring students to attend chapel every morning is establishing religion? Bah."

Yes, when the State acting through the School and School Board CHOOSES to enforce a Christian ritual on school property, using school resources, sponsored by school personnel ... yes, that is establishing the Christian religion.

"Just get over it" huh? LOL, so much for supposed religious freedom.

You and those like you don't want religious freedom, you want Christianity to reign supreme.

It isn't going to, not in America.

You are using straw man tactics and that doesn't work. YOU are the one who keeps saying required or forced and establishing. I keep saying it is nothing more than a choice to participate or not. You change it from choice to mandate and then complain about it. You are not addressing my statements but your own.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

ya know, I was in the orchestra when I was in school. We would spend quite a few months practicing and getting ready for the school christmas festivities, and well, we really were expected to take part in them. Although I imagine the school would let those kids out of them for religious reasons, I also imagine that it would be a rather large let down for those kids to not be able to participate. I also don't remember anything as obviously religious being a part of the festivities as a nativity scene!!!

so, to me, your choice to participate or not, is more like practicing and working hard with a goal in mind, and then not being able to fullfil that goal without a bunch of religious indoctrination that might very well be in direct conflict with your own religion!!!

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Strawman tactics? That's rich coming from you.

Arguments have been made along those lines repeatedly by those who say the same things you do.

You can't squirm out of it that easily. And don't pretend that you're against prayer in school, after all ...

"If they don't want to pray to Jesus, they don't have to, right? They can just stand there in silence."

Nothing wrong with that, right?

Wrong.

THE EVENT IS HAPPENING ON SCHOOL PROPERTY IS CONDUCTED BY SCHOOL OFFICIALS!

That is not "a choice."

I've addressed your statements repeatedly. You keep desperately trying to make it about attendance at the event ...

THE ISSUE IS THE EVENT ITSELF!

WHAT IT IS
WHERE IT IS BEING HELD
WHO IS HOLDING IT

Don't even pretend that you are the one being ignored here.

You were quick to disagree with Ramadan being imposed on the school ... but you're STILL arguing for the Christmas Nativity Scene!

Your argument is utterly hypocritical.

Isn't it about time you had a War against Fox News and Rupert Murdoch. It would be far more appreciated and useful.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Vroomfondel

Strawman tactics? That's rich coming from you.

Arguments have been made along those lines repeatedly by those who say the same things you do.

You can't squirm out of it that easily. And don't pretend that you're against prayer in school, after all ...

"If they don't want to pray to Jesus, they don't have to, right? They can just stand there in silence."

Nothing wrong with that, right?

Wrong.

THE EVENT IS HAPPENING ON SCHOOL PROPERTY IS CONDUCTED BY SCHOOL OFFICIALS!

That is not "a choice."

I've addressed your statements repeatedly. You keep desperately trying to make it about attendance at the event ...

THE ISSUE IS THE EVENT ITSELF!

WHAT IT IS
WHERE IT IS BEING HELD
WHO IS HOLDING IT

Don't even pretend that you are the one being ignored here.

You were quick to disagree with Ramadan being imposed on the school ... but you're STILL arguing for the Christmas Nativity Scene!

Your argument is utterly hypocritical.

Still straw man tactics. Blatantly.

I am not against prayer in school. Unless you don't want to. You don't have to. But if you want to you should be able to.

My statement on Ramadan was that I would not participate in it but I would not stop anyone else from participating in it. How is that against it, straw man?

There is nothing hypocritical about my statements. I believe in freedom to choose for any and all. I don't believe you or anyone else has the right to tell anyone what they can or cant do. That is not freedom. As long as no one is being forced to participate or being told they must adhere to a particular religion or its beliefs there is no indoctrination, there is no mandate, there is no establishing religion. There is just a school play.

Let me ask you this: if the school play was about democracy and a student was a communist, would you make him participate?

a reply to: grandmakdw

Agreed!

Sun god
The Roman Festival of Saturnalia took place between December 17th and 23rd and honoured the Roman god Saturn. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means 'birthday of the unconquered sun' and was held on December 25th (when the Romans thought the Winter Solstice took place) and was the 'birthday' of the Pagan Sun god Mithra.

If I may ask...who officially "declared war" on Christmas?

I have some pretty militant atheist friends, and they certainly haven't take up arms or mentioned a war on Christmas.

For some reason I think this is more of a media thing.

c'mon....the right, especially FOX NEWS has been making up straw arguments against the "liberal establishment" for quite a few years now. they even use their own employees for factual references.

originally posted by: introvert
They should not have a live nativity scene at the school. Unless they are willing to represent all religions in the Christmas show, the nativity has no place.

I say that not because I hate Christmas or Christians, but because the schools should remain secular and not give preference to one religion or another.

Sadly, such a simple concept will be missed by many. They will whine and cry and say we are trying to wage war or Christmas...again....just like last year.....and the year before.

There could get to be a lot of removal than as Halloween is a religious festival also and they have Easter and just about every holy day in schools.

Taking Fox News' nonsense propaganda seriously, is a sure sign that you have bigger problems to worry about.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

But if they are not permitted to blatantly mix church and state in the public sphere,

How far would you take it? There have always been children's plays like A Christmas Carol and singing and such at school as far back as I can remember and I am old? If you remove all the festivals and holiday stuff from the schools it would be a big change.