The Fox News 'War On Christmas' Panic Is Already Starting

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Vroomfondel

Exactly it's a SCHOOL play. It's sponsored, planned, conducted, and organized BY THE SCHOOL.

The SCHOOL is a government entity. When the SCHOOL puts on a Christmas play, it is forcing EVERY STUDENT to be a part of it

In fact, if you read the article the suit is on behalf of a student who is in the music program and who has been expected to participate in the show.

a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

a reply to: Gryphon66

accept the kids get off for two weeks for that holiday so obviously removing Christmas from the school is not something the school should do.

oh but let us now pretend the two weeks was never for Christmas and that the founding fathers wanted us to change everything.

a reply to: deadeyedick

The agenda is beyond clear. It's nothing to do about removing all religion from schools. Halloween is religious and there's no push to ban decorations, candy, and costumes from our schools. Why no push to apply this separation equally?

a reply to: WeAreAWAKE

What are you talking about?
What has banning Christmas got to do with the Left?
Do you live in Cloud Cuckoo Land?
There is no reason why having respect for fellow human beings who happen to be gay, means that you have to abolish Christian festivals. If one is a true Christian and not a loony right wing zealot that is.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

The are not disciples of Christ, that is one thing for certain.
They are right wing loonies. They don't even believe the # they spout, they just expect us to.
They are "Christians"(tm)
When did Jesus ever support capitalism?
When did Jesus ever condemn gay people?

Most of what we now celebrate as "Christmas" was established in around the 1850's.

Before that, there was no Santa, no nativity scene, none of the trappings of what modern Christians think of as traditional Christmas values established by God.

Christians want to have religious freedom, but only when it's based in their modern, warped interpretation of Christianity.

Jesus would be absolutely HORRIFIED to see most of the things being preached in His name in 2015.

However, oversensitivity to ridiculous issues that never used to offend anyone has gotten completely out of hand. If you're offended by a nativity scene, you are probably the type of person who is too sensitive to be at a public school.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

Yes, that is exactly how it works. Its called the ability to choose. And the reason you can make a choice is because it isn't being forced on anyone.

They cant force a religion on you and you cant force them to ignore theirs. Just because they are having a Christmas show doesn't mean it is an attempt to make that religion the one and only or that they intend to convert anyone. I don't feel compelled to change religions every time I see a religious symbol. This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

Like I said before, if the kids and the parents are so opposed to the school celebrating Christmas in any way then I am sure they can find some atheist teachers who will keep the school open for those kids during the two week Christmas break. They can continue attending class while the other kids are off. After all, I would hate to think they were a bunch of hypocrites denying the holiday then enjoying the two week vacation...

a reply to: Vroomfondel

But Christians in America and the UK are not persecuted.
This is a bit like the MRA loonies who say that middle class white males are persecuted.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

You need to go to the ACLU website and read up on what the actual position is on this under "free expression" in the religion in schools section. It's not about keeping Christianity out of the schools. It's about not having school (government) led prayers or indoctrination. Students still retain their individual rights to religious practice and expression--i.e. Christians can bring prayer mats if they want, too. Or have religious clubs organized by students. The ACLU defends those rights, too.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
They cant force a religion on you

It's called peer pressure. Kids are especially vulnerable to it.

BTW, teachers appreciate winter break. They're getting ready for a whole new lesson plan. I'm sure they appreciate the time off too. I bet the children do too. Those kids are locked to desks in a stale institution during their most energetic and creative years.

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

You need to go to the ACLU website and read up on what the actual position is on this under "free expression" in the religion in schools section. It's not about keeping Christianity out of the schools. It's about not having school (government) led prayers or indoctrination. Students still retain their individual rights to religious practice and expression--i.e. Christians can bring prayer mats if they want, too. Or have religious clubs organized by students. The ACLU defends those rights, too.

And if the student's preferred method of expression is a school play and a nativity scene?

There is a difference between practicing and indoctrination. I don't feel the need to change relgions every time I hear about a holiday or festival. There is no indoctrination there.

originally posted by: Antidisestablishment
a reply to: Vroomfondel

But Christians in America and the UK are not persecuted.
This is a bit like the MRA loonies who say that middle class white males are persecuted.

Where did you get that information? How do you know it to be true?

As a single white middle class male I was "privileged" to pay for a whole lot of social programs I did not qualify for and was not allowed to participate in. My job was to fund these programs. I was never allowed to benefit from them.

I believe in the first amendment. If a bunch of Christian kids want to put on a school play I think they should be allowed to. And anyone who doesn't want to participate doesn't have to. Anyone who doesn't want to watch doesn't have to. If a bunch of Jewish kids want to put on a play they should be allowed to. Same rules all around. If little Bobby satan worshipper wants to put on a play and no one else wants to join in, then little Bobby's play just became a one man show. And if no one shows up to watch it, that's too bad for little Bobby. I wont deny him his right to express himself but I wont be attending his show either. I can maintain my religion without denying little Bobby his.

Christmas is really the Christianised Roman festival of Saturnalia.
I thought you all knew that.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: DelMarvel

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DelMarvel

Good catch, DelMarvel, I was also able to find that the groups bringing the lawsuits (on behalf of one of the students) had only originally asked the school to leave out the live Nativity scene along with Scripture reading (as these are specifically Christian in nature) and that the rest of the performance, as celebrating the general season and festivities, were more secular.

Article from The Elkart Truth newspaper

The School System refused a simple and reasonable accommodation saying, as many have here, that anyone who didn't want to participate didn't have to, but that the blatantly religious observance was going ahead as planned.

Sorry "No Establishment" doesn't work that way.

Have the religious stuff at church. Leave the school stuff non-religious. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

This was never about keeping religion out of schools. It is about keeping Christianity out of schools. Prayer mats are ok. Wiccan t-shirts are ok. Even Satanists are protected. But not Christians.

You need to go to the ACLU website and read up on what the actual position is on this under "free expression" in the religion in schools section. It's not about keeping Christianity out of the schools. It's about not having school (government) led prayers or indoctrination. Students still retain their individual rights to religious practice and expression--i.e. Christians can bring prayer mats if they want, too. Or have religious clubs organized by students. The ACLU defends those rights, too.

And if the student's preferred method of expression is a school play and a nativity scene?
.

Then they can arrange to use the school's facilities on the same terms as any other outside group. Or use a church or some other location.

This is not a group of students getting together on their own. This is school employees (government employees) organizing public school students in a religious ceremony. I'm not sure why you don't get this.

If you read other news reports some of the families opposed to this are afraid to speak on the record for fear of retaliation against themselves and their children which tells you a lot right there.

originally posted by: Antidisestablishment
Christmas is really the Christianised Roman festival of Saturnalia.
I thought you all knew that.

Well true, but before that . . . Let's face it --- all celebrations were for: birth, food, and probably war (territorial).

Sure, by the Fourth Century there were Christians celebrating “Christmas.” It wasn’t so much a celebration of Jesus’ birth but a Christian continuation of the Roman holidays of Saturnalia and the January Kalends. Saturnalia featured many of the things we currently associate with Christmas: large meals, holly, mistletoe, gift giving, and abundance. There was no way anyone was going to convince newly Christianized Romans to give up their holiday celebrations, so they became a part of the new holiday of Christmas, a day to celebrate the birth of Jesus.

December 25th wasn’t a date picked by chance either, it was the birthday of Sol Invictus, the Unconquerable Sun, a pagan deity who was very popular with the elite of Rome and those in the army. With Jesus’ birthday on the 25th the feasting, drinking, and gift giving was all allowed to continue, and people could all participate while paying a little lip-service to Jesus. December 25th was also the date of the Winter Solstice on the Julian Calendar, the date wasn’t chosen by chance.

www.patheos.com...

The Constitutional "freedom of religion" has two parts in the United States of equal and balanced force:

1. The Government (at any level) will not establish (support, prefer, give special recognition to) any religion (No Establishment), and,

2. The Government will not keep anyone from practicing religion as they see fit. (Free Exercise)

One part says the Government will not do something, one part says the Government will not keep citizens from doing something.

Both happen simultaneously. Both parts of the law are in force at all times. Equally.

Christians, of a certain stripe, only want to focus on "free exercise" which they interpret as doing what they want to do at everyone else's expense.

Notice how many times here we've heard: "If they don't like it, they can lump it."

That's not how religious freedom works under the Constitution in America.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66

accept the kids get off for two weeks for that holiday so obviously removing Christmas from the school is not something the school should do.

oh but let us now pretend the two weeks was never for Christmas and that the founding fathers wanted us to change everything.

The fact that kids get time off from school doesn't involve invoking the practices, rituals and symbolism of Christianity on school property, by school officials, to which some students are required to come.

No one's "pretending" anything. The government does not establish religion. Not in any way, at any level at any time.

Sorry, that's the American way. If you want it differently, move to a Christian Theocracy.

a reply to: Gryphon66
you really believe that?

no one if forcing anyone and one kid whines and you cave and claim things have always been this way.

If we do not stand up for the things that made us great then we fail and you are an advocate for failure by taking a blind view of the foundation. Oh but you are not alone.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Gryphon66

accept the kids get off for two weeks for that holiday so obviously removing Christmas from the school is not something the school should do.

oh but let us now pretend the two weeks was never for Christmas and that the founding fathers wanted us to change everything.

The fact that kids get time off from school doesn't involve invoking the practices, rituals and symbolism of Christianity on school property, by school officials, to which some students are required to come.

We, supporters of Separation of Church and State, continue the fight to remove Christianity from our government.

The religion was allowed to take hold, but should never have been allowed to in the first place. Now we have to backtrack to undo the wrong.

Christmas and Easter should never have been official government holidays.

I know there have been lawsuits to officially rename these 2 holidays. I expect that will happen at some point.