NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: deadeyedick

I'm trying to wrap my head around the words you typed, and I just don't have any idea what you mean..
so explain please, what are those christian elements in the gov't that are being taken away??

prayer in schools? oh ya, because it's always good to punish the little children of jewish, muslim, hindu, and others for their religious persuasion and kick them out into the hallway while the rest pray to the christian god!

you said it yourself in one of your posts...
"not to exclude anyone", prayers in the classroom, children's christmas plays with christian themes, invitation emailed by the secretary of a air force commander to his troops inviting them to a toy drive that's full with flowerful christian references including mentioning the prayers to jesus at this event....
they all seem to exclude a portion of the people!!!

you seem to be saying that not wanting the gov't doing these kinds of things corresponds to wanting to remove christians from our gov't.... heck, I'd like to replace the whole congress at this point, but their religious affiliations have nothing to do with it!! Heck if they were actually doing the job they are supposed to be doing, I could care less of their religious views!

a reply to: dawnstar


It is very easy to understand.

The term separation of church and state is thrown around in order to remove anything that others disagree with.

By invoking a false definition without placing any limits on the extent of the effects we open up ourselves for termination as a democracy.

In the end if the false definition is left unchecked then it will end with all forms of religion being removed piece by piece.

The goal should be to keep gov. out of religion and gov. be a reflection of the people.

All these so called abuse victims of religion should seek unions with like minded people for the purpose of becoming more represented and not dwell on the fact that a majority belief is being accepted by the masses.

It is equalivant to revenge and not an attempt to better ourselves.

Bottom line is that the us was founded on Christianity as much as it was founded on anything else. The proof can be seen currently on display throughout the halls of gov.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Bottom line is that the us was founded on Christianity as much as it was founded on anything else. The proof can be seen currently on display throughout the halls of gov.

As much as anything else? There's more "proof" that the US was founded on Paganism than Christianity. As a matter of fact, there's more proof that Christianity itself is founded upon paganism than that Jesus Christ ever even really existed!

originally posted by: deadeyedick
The founded our gov. based on what?

My answer would be that it was founded on things they knew.

They knew church, common law and maritime law.

They based it on Reason and the Enlightenment. Just take a look at the first coins minted by Washington from his own personal silver. Read the motto: "Liberty Mother of Science and Industry"

a reply to: windword

I have never argued against the fact that much of the two have common issues. If we get of of this who done what first kick and just look at the facts that regardless of where Christianity came from it was the prevailing method of worship and lifestyle at the time and the founders never tried to separate the two in the manner that is being pushed today. They clearly did not want the church to be in control of the gov. but at the same time they did not want to remove Christianity from the gov.

We can know this to be true by their actions at the time. They did not seek out people that were in gov. and celebrating their faith at the same time. They did not seek to remove holydays from being celebrated by or in the gov. That is us today that have twisted things.

a reply to: deadeyedick

the constitution bestowed rights onto the people, all the people, not just the majority, but also the minority. and the separation of church and state can't be thrown around to remove all those things that people don't like, only those that involve religion and the gov't.

I would also propose that the gov't at the present time IS A REFLECTION of the people OF TODAY!! when you keep referring back to what the founding fathers meant over back in the 1700's you seem to think that it should be reflecting the people of that day....when slaves were kept in chains and uneducated, when women were the property of men, and when fathers could sell their children into slavery. Time removed all these things by the same means that changes are occurring today, through victims and their defenders speaking out, and petitioning the various branches of gov't on their behalf. and well not too surprisingly, for most of these changes, religion was standing in the way, clinging to tradition. And that is how it should be because as the gov't and the people will naturally drive us forward, the religion and it's tradition will be there to prevent us from moving too fast and hopefully keep us from running off a cliff!



so explain please, what are those christian elements in the gov't that are being taken away??

a reply to: mOjOm

Those are not in conflict with the Christian message.


I think George knew that religion could stifle science yet he still celebrated and allowed others to do such.

Notice I have never said that America was founded solely on Christianity.

It is a mix that came from what they knew of at the time.

a reply to: dawnstar

You missed the point again.

I am claiming very strongly that the term separation of church and state without restrictions will only lead to tyranny.

It does not really matter what specific things are currently being attacked as much as the unchecked weapon being wielded.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

Those are not in conflict with the Christian message.


I think George knew that religion could stifle science yet he still celebrated and allowed others to do such.

Notice I have never said that America was founded solely on Christianity.

It is a mix that came from what they knew of at the time.

I didn't say they were in conflict either but it does show that "Christianity" wasn't being pushed as the Nations Religion in any capacity. Not on it's money, in it's founding documents and not with the founders other than in their personal lives for some of them which they kept on a personal level.

Again, I'd like to point out that many of them were also Masons so we know they believed in some higher power too. That meant they were also a very intelligent group of capable men belonging to a brotherhood and order where they understood how to belong within a union of others with various beliefs.

a reply to: deadeyedick

the restriction is self evident in it!!!
religionS is protected from gov't meddling..... they can teach and preach the people however they want. The gov't isn't allowed to hold one set of teachings above the others or promote one over the others...
the gov't wasn't created by any one religion and for only one religion though, it was by the people and for the people. the religionS cannot directly affect the actions of the gov't, only the people can.
At the time of our founding, I'll admit that our country was predominantly christian and native american. and well our democratic system was probably more from some of those native americans than the christians! but those christians had varying beliefs that were probably just as much as odds with each other than the beliefs of today, remember these people's close ancestors experiences a hundred years where religion was being used as the reason for wars and bloodshed!
So, in essence, I don't think there was that big of a difference, there were small sects of minority christians that needed protection that our constitution provided. Which is why that separation clause is in the constitution. Since our founding we have saw fit to allow people with all kinds of religious views into the country as well as even brought back to life modern day forms of religions that were once danged near made extinct by the state/church mergers of the past!

Could it be that you are seeing a less christian reflection from the government because we have as much diversity when it comes to religion in this country?? Ya think that maybe if the christians could possibly spend more time teaching the more noble parts of the christian religion instead of whining to the gov't it's diminishing influence in american culture, maybe just maybe, they could change the people, after all that's their job, not changing the gov't!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23

If america is still a "christian nation" where are these fruits? I don't see them that often amoung the people, and quite frankly, I don't see them amoung the loudest voices in the christian community! And it's not like there is any laws on the books today that makes these fruits illegal, is there?

a reply to: mOjOm

That still does not negate the fact that Church was much inspiration for the way the system was formed. The things they knew can be found throughout the buildings and practices.

I would be just as animate if there was a thread claiming that masonry or a desire to practice sciences was not part of the foundation of the country. It is all relative and should not be removed from history just because one group wants to take more of the credit.

To say that America was not founded on Christianity is a lie.

a reply to: dawnstar

religionS is protected from gov't meddling

srry I could not get past the first misconception in order to see if you had a valid point this time.

a reply to: deadeyedick

can you even back up with scripture the idea of liberty and freedom? come on, give it a try!!!! what about democracy, show me some scriptures that support that idea!

a reply to: deadeyedick

oh well, why waste me time with ya then!!! especially if you disagree with those first few words, since you seem to be taking the position that those of your faith should be free to practice their faith while performing their sworn duties as officers of the gov't.

a reply to: dawnstar


That is close but not quite.

free to practice their faith while performing their sworn duties as officers of the gov't.

To a certain extent they should be able to with in reason and not in conflict with those duties.

However more to the point I would want known is that currently we have no written boundaries on the limits of the phrase c&s separation. I will even submit that currently the situation is not too bad where the verbal acceptance limits are but we are open to the winds of change currently. Our freedom of religion hangs in the balance of interpretation based on current emotion. This is ignored because we fight the small battles of freedom and have not seen the picture that all this change has made. It is no dali.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: deadeyedick

can you even back up with scripture the idea of liberty and freedom? come on, give it a try!!!! what about democracy, show me some scriptures that support that idea!

Yea like I wanna be Americas preacher

let us not go down that road cause power does strange things to me

lol.... I don't see the gov't really messing with anyone's rights to practice their religion as they see fit. ya sure, occasionally they will step in and say hey, you can't beat your kids to death in a church sponsored counseling session or have a half a dozen wives, behead the infidels, ect. But I do see a sections of the christian sections having a fit because they aren't being allowed to dictate policy to the gov't.

This video is a clear example of this. Keep in mind that this mob is reacting to a falsehood that planned parenthood is behind the changes this school district is making in their sex education class, and that any student can be opted out of it. But no, they want an abstinence only policy to be taught to OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN! obviously since if they don't want their kids to know about birth control, abortion, ect, they can just take them out, just like the parents of those kids in that school who didn't want their kids to be force to pray to the christian god could be taken out and sat in a hallway. or the kids that didn't was to participate in a play that involved a manger could just not participate, ect. which it seems that so many think is appropriate.

www.ketv.com...

a reply to: dawnstar

Everything in your post relies on having leaders that feel the same as you. That is not good enough and their needs to be clear limitations on separating church and state. That has nothing to do at all with religions breaking other laws and when they do they have to answer to the same system we all have to in the usa.

You try to conflate crazy religious practices not being accepted and the vulnerability of their right to hold those beliefs and practice them with in reasonable circumstances regardless of who owns the property.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: theNLBS

I hadn't heard about Texas text books including Moses and the Old Testament as influencing the founding fathers and the Constitution! Looked it up, and it's too true.
G

the new textbooks also include passages that suggest Moses influenced the writing of the Constitution and that the roots of democracy can be found in the Old Testament. Scholars from across the country have said such claims are inaccurate and mislead students about the historical record. - See more at: www.patheos.com...

Just goes to show what I've always said all along, some Christians are willing to lie for Jesus, and the means justify the ends! I suppose this is a case in some courtroom somewhere, I hope.

God told Abraham that he would be father of
Many nations
America was under the protection of God
Until it became a republic
Slowly but surely America was slipping into communism
Totally blind to it

a reply to: deadeyedick

If we get of of this who done what first kick and just look at the facts that regardless of where Christianity came from it was the prevailing method of worship and lifestyle at the time and the founders never tried to separate the two in the manner that is being pushed today.

No. The United State of America was NOT established to worship any gods. It was established to govern the people, by the people for the people.

The founding fathers were very clear in their intent that NOBODY would be able to govern the American people as if cloaked in godly righteousness, carrying the Bible and a cross. They saw the horrors of what happens when church and clergy rule. They most certainly DID make every effort to separate church and state.

The United State of America has a secular, inclusive government.

And, by the way, everything about Jesus' teaching lean toward communism. Jesus, for all intents and purposes was communist.