NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: Verum1quaere

I'm near 70 years.

It's been an interesting and enlightening journey.

Stepping completely out of the "God circle", at age 65 was the most freeing of my life.

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
the Founding Fathers believed one of the central tenets of the Bible: that humans are prone to dubious actions and decision-making and inherently corrupt, leading to corrupt systems.

Thus they chose "checks and balances"

Like anyone needs the bible to tell them that???

You do remember they were fleeing from such a corrupt system in coming here right???

some of them appear to have known about or followed some occult/gnostic knowledge, but most of them also seem to have at least suspected, if not out right believed, that Jesus is Lord.

Yes. They were Freemasons. As a Mason you also must believe in some higher power other than yourself, however, any such higher power is fine. Doesn't even have to be a Deity. You just can't be Atheist.

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
but to say we are not a Christian nation is false, imo.

What is false is to assume that this nation has any "Established Religion" based upon one or more of it's founders.

If it was meant to be Christian you would find mention of it quite clearly. You do not. What you find is a mention of simply "God" or "Creator" which is completely neutral although it does imply some acknowledgement of a higher power. Never once is there mentioned the words "Christian, Christ, Jehovah, Yahway, Lord God in Heaven, etc." If any of those were mentioned you might have a case but they aren't. Do you think they would intend a Christian Nation and forget to mention Christ himself in the founding documents??

Next is the fact that the first Amendment conflicts with the First Commandment. They are directly opposed to each other and makes no sense that the founders would have overlooked that. In fact legally speaking, out of the 10 commandments only 2 or 3 at best would apply to our system of law. None of the others apply at all.

It doesn't matter if the founders were Religious or even if they were all Devout Christians, they were wise enough to NOT have Religion established as the authority over Government.

a reply to: mOjOm

so much space in the ten commandments wasted on gods vanity and the government doesnt even enforce it. no wonder god left in such a huff.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: dismanrc

Some of the ideas we take as fact are not even considered in Asia.

Like what kind of "ideals"?

Religion; whether you believe in it or not; has shaped the cultural norms of people for thousands of years and by that has shaped the ideals we live by.

Really? Are corporate jobs, public education, credit card debt, car loans, mortgages and 401Ks influenced by Christianity? How?

Well one of the major ideals that are different in Asia is personnel honor. In many (Most?) Asian countries this is related to to honoring your ancestors. You should never do anything that dishonors yourself because it reflects on the honor of your ancestors. And your ancestors are a key figure in many of these religions. Most westerners don't understand this and I will be the first to admit that, even though I do know about it, I have little insight into the details of how it truly fits into their lives. I do know that it plays a WAY bigger role in their lives then it does with us.


As for the second. It amazes me that people are so black/white, yes/no etc on the way they think. I never meant to imply that western culture in 100% based on Christianity, there are also other things that shaped it. But the RELIGION that shaped it was Christianity and that had a major role because of the power of the Catholic church for so many years. Could some of the things you ask about be traced back to this? I think some of it could be. Education has been a big part of the Christian church. A large number of the universities in Europe can be traced back to being founded by the church and ran by monks of the church. This in turn pushed the ideas of education that led to our current system. As for the monetary side that could even be traced back to the church to some degree. Christianity has a strong work effort Incorporated into its core and also the ideas of providing for your family and even the benefits of providing charity to others. Also no where, as far as I'm aware, in Christianity does it say you can't financially prosper.

Also none of the things you talk about are inherently "evil" and against anything in the Christian religion. Can they be miss used? Yes, just as anything, including the religion, can be miss used by man. I have nothing against Catholics, or the Catholic church per say, but I do believe that the "Catholic" church has been used for some of the worst crimes in history over the past 2000 years. I attribute this to the people in power at the time using their influence to do evil things, not the church itself.

a reply to: dismanrc

That is all good and well but it still doesn't make this nation Christian.

We are all well aware of history of various religions. They influence each other since the dawn of mankind. Christianity is not unique.

a reply to: dismanrc

Thanks for your answer dismanrc,

You said: "If you have ever lived in a non-European area you will noticed what some of these norms are. Some of the ideas we take as fact are not even considered in Asia. "

I expected you to answer my question of "What ideas"? with examples of idea that we take for granted in the West that are missing in Asia, but you presented examples of the opposite.

Well one of the major ideals that are different in Asia is personnel honor. In many (Most?) Asian countries this is related to to honoring your ancestors.

Let's examine this idea. Does Christianity teach its adherents personal honor and require us to honor our ancestors? Yes and no.

I would propose that there are actually 2 Christianities. One based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth and one based on the Christian church of Constantine. Immediately after the edict went out that Christianity was the State Religion, Christians went out and destroyed 6000 of their parents' and ancestors' temples and holy sites, burned libraries and murdered pagan priests. That model continued until the modern era.

Jesus taught respect for the ancient scriptures, traditions and the prophets, and to respect and care for our "neighbors".

Could some of the things you ask about be traced back to this? I think some of it could be. Education has been a big part of the Christian church

Egyptian, Greeks, Persians, Romans, and certainly in ancient China where they already had printing and publishing, valued education. Ptolemy established the Library of Alexandria. Plato, Socrates, Pythagoras...all emphasized the importance of an educated youth.

Christianity has historically used education as a means of procylization, indoctrination and control.

Christianity has a strong work effort Incorporated into its core and also the ideas of providing for your family and even the benefits of providing charity to others.

That depends on whether you follow the "Church" or the teachings of Jesus.

18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.

22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

No work ethics there.

Also no where, as far as I'm aware, in Christianity does it say you can't financially prosper.

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

a reply to: Verum1quaere

and annee, I hope you wake up from your star trek programming…

And I hope you wake up from your stone age, mythological programming...

think about how vast the universe is, just for a minute: trillions and trillions and trillions…

Yes. Think about that. All created for a blue dot no bigger than a speck of dust when compared to the size of the universe.

do you really think it matters if we travel into space?

Yes. Yes I do.

time and space are a construct that are totally irrelevant to immortality and the Divine…

The "divine" doesn't seem to think it irrelevant. He/She created it?

one reason the Bible is so predictive

The bible is ambiguous. In those places it appears to be "predictive", it is because the writer was not completely lacking common sense, and an understanding of human nature.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I find your response interesting....

Everything is relative to the universe in a sense.

If we incorporate the freedom found in the universe to our situation - taking this one step further - if I were to shoot a hundred people for no reason - this is the freedom afforded by reality.

Yet, we create rules that limit those freedoms.... and yet, we are allowed to fight those who are different from us in wars that re-distribute the wealth... It is all convenient as long as it supports a limited view of right/wrong.

As a Christian - I may personally object to "gay" marriage - but I don't interfere with such, in that I prefer to hang out in a heterosexuals only club - and respect the rules I find there. I am highly aware, however, that the priests of Catholic origin - many are in fact gay. I should know, because I come from a society where at one point in time about 80% of Catholic priests originate - I have made friends with a lot of them - just don't prefer to have physical contact aside from a handshaking.

NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

The only thing that supports the claim that the US is a Xtian nation, is the vanity and the corruption, the hypocrisy and the selfishness, the greed, the Heartlessness and Lovelessness, the lies and the persecution of all others, especially the minorities, and on and on and on.. ad nauseum!
All this incontrovertible evidence/symptoms screams XTIAN!

Mod Edit

originally posted by: mOjOm
So glad that you finally addressed this on NLBS!! It sort of makes it official now in a way. Maybe those that promote such an incorrect version of history will finally listen to some sense now and stop pushing their BS.

Good job Joe!!

Prepare for the Religious Haters though as they will not like this or you for saying it.

Guten Tag- Here it is, 4 months later and sad to type... "Thats a negative Ghostrider, the pattern is full"


originally posted by: crustyjuggler27
with all of this Muslim vs Christians crap we are being berated with by the media tirelessly everyday it makes me wonder if either sides ideals should be given any merit in our system of governance whatsoever. if you remove the parts where it says to do good things like gods guide to being a good person, both sides leave you with a list of things not to do and how they are to be punished. my question is "does your religion belong in the United States of Americas Government? and to clarify i mean all of it. every rule that your god or prophet has declared this is not a bash the other guys religion thread. if i see it i will remove it


Well, considering US law and the foundations of government are almost entirely Judeo-Christian and has been that way until about 2 decades ago when we started to go full retard with PC insanity, then Yes.

edit on 22-9-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)

a reply to: JimNasium

Were you posting something in response to me?? I'm finding it hard to tell who you're talking to or what you're saying.

a reply to: mOjOm

Ah , In God We Trust ........... In 18th Century America , that Saying was Directly Attributed to Americans of the Christian Faith . Most of the Founding Fathers were of Christian Birth and were Baptized .

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: mOjOm

Ah , In God We Trust ........... In 18th Century America , that Saying was Directly Attributed to Americans of the Christian Faith . Most of the Founding Fathers were of Christian Birth and were Baptized .

Most probably were but not all. Some were Masons as well. So what??? They were Theists that's for sure but that doesn't mean that they founded the nation as a Christian Nation.

I will agree that Christianity has a history here in America since it's founding however the Nation was not Founded with those principles as it's authority.

This is most easily shown by the fact that the US has an established idea of Freedom of Religion. Meaning no Religion is established as the Nations Religion. All Religious worship of whatever kind is equally protected as any other. However Christianity forbids the worship of any other God than the Christian God. Those two principles are directly opposed to one another and the Founders would not have established Freedom of Religion if their intent was to establish Christianity as the Nations Religion.

a reply to: mOjOm

Yes and Yes I agree that post was garbled. I tried to link a post from yesterday ( Sept.22 2015) that is at the bottom.

a reply to: Annee

Bravor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Annee, BTW you are still young at hart and you can be spiritual without be part of any religious denomination.

a reply to: Gorman91While there are some isolated quotes by some of the Founding Fathers, the vast majority did not share your opinion. For a better understanding from the original papers of the Founding Fathers, please go to wallbuilders.com. Yes, we were definitely founded as a Christian nation. Sorry.

originally posted by: Jim Scott
a reply to: Gorman91While there are some isolated quotes by some of the Founding Fathers, the vast majority did not share your opinion. For a better understanding from the original papers of the Founding Fathers, please go to wallbuilders.com. Yes, we were definitely founded as a Christian nation. Sorry.

Wallbuilders

Pro Family, Pro Christian, Pro Bible.

Sorry, but don't think I'll be getting my history from there.

originally posted by: Jim Scott
a reply to: Gorman91While there are some isolated quotes by some of the Founding Fathers, the vast majority did not share your opinion. For a better understanding from the original papers of the Founding Fathers, please go to wallbuilders.com. Yes, we were definitely founded as a Christian nation. Sorry.

I'm not sure how the founding USA could be considered Christian at all... Unless you consider the genocide of the Native Americans a Christian thing to do? (On top of civil wars, revolutionary wars and general cruelty throughout its history)