NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

a reply to: piney

Why isn't the word "God" anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights? Oh that's right. Most of the founders weren't Christians or Jews, they were Deists.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

That still does not negate the fact that Church was much inspiration for the way the system was formed. The things they knew can be found throughout the buildings and practices.

I would be just as animate if there was a thread claiming that masonry or a desire to practice sciences was not part of the foundation of the country. It is all relative and should not be removed from history just because one group wants to take more of the credit.

To say that America was not founded on Christianity is a lie.

The only lie is the one you keep pushing on everyone despite being proven wrong at every turn. We can all agree that some of the founders were Christian, some simply Theistic but all having some sort of Religious or Spiritual ideals. But that's as far as it goes.

There is NO mention of Christ, Christians, or the Christian God in ANY OF THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS. None. Also, there is a rule stating that NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION BE NEEDED TO HOLD OFFICE. Those two things right there complete shoot your theory full of holes.

Even if Religion in General might have influenced the founders, which at the time is very likely as it influenced the daily lives of just about everyone anyway, that does not mean "Christianity" itself is the Nations Religion in any official capacity at all. None, zero, zip, nada, no and zilch.

If it was there would be mention of it officially. Somewhere, someone would have mentioned "Christ" or "Christianity" specifically but you find that nowhere. Not once. Not one specific thing can be tied back to "Christianity" alone. Religious ideas in general maybe, but not any single Religion at all.

America was founded as an Atheocracy. Not an anti-theocracy, it doesn't hate theocracies, nor does it disallow for religion in its lands, rather its governmental system and its constitution are presented as a set of atheocratic laws, principles and rules.

The intent of the government was to create a land where all religions may live peacefully and freely together without any single one of them claiming to be the governing body itself, nevertheless, religious individuals may hold positions of office. Essentially, a government based on general laws and principles that all its citizens must abide by, transcribed from no one single religion, and not allowing for any single religion to usurp legal authority, whether intimated or covertly.

In fact, in some of the very original drafts of the preamble, the specific mentioning of phrases such as "our Lord" and/or "Christ" were redacted overwhelmingly and, instead replaced with "our creator". We all have some type of creator, even atheists. Whether it is your Mom, your Dad, your God, the government itself, and/or the universe. This general term was carefully chosen so as to have it fairly apply to all peoples without a faith based bias originating within a single religion.

I could go on, but I just wanted to chime in, since this topic is of interest to me. If I am indeed incorrect, then I will rescind my stance, but this would require someone providing some form of documented evidence that supersedes the importance and current text of the constitution, since that is where I derive my passion from regarding this subject.

The Founders were overwhelmingly Christian and to deny that is to literally deny historical reality; however they clearly created a secular state because they made no effort to create a "Church of England" or any other national church. Clearly they wished to avoid the problems in Europe, where state plus religion so obviously led to sectarian warfare, deep corruption, and intellectual oppression across the board.

Anyone familiar with early modern European history does not need a lesson in that, but for those who do not: the Thirty Year's War, the Inquisition, Cromwell's barbarity, to name just a few examples of religion as a tool of state oppression. The civil wars and dynastic struggles in England often had a religious component too and clearly these examples were foremost in the Founders' minds.

So even though the overwhelmingly majority of the Founders were Protestant Christians, they were willing to tolerate Jews, Catholics, atheists and even Native American pagans in order to avoid having the equivalent of the Church of England, which they saw (rightly so) as part of the apparatus of tyranny and an enemy of liberty and free expression. But the country was certainly de facto Protestant Christian in terms of majority practice, but that was deliberately kept out of government. No flavor of Christianity was ever the state religion of the early United States.

It's hard to argue with their decision or the results.

a reply to: mOjOm

There is NO mention of Christ, Christians, or the Christian God in ANY OF THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS. None. Also, there is a rule stating that NO RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION BE NEEDED TO HOLD OFFICE. Those two things right there complete shoot your theory full of holes.

it is the creator that the foundation of our government.

Since the creator is referred to we can know that the term separation of church and state was not meant in the way people want it to these days.

The goal was to include all religions and not to prohibit any.

No single religion could take control of the government but all could participate.

Culture is not a bad thing but tyranny is.

a reply to: deadeyedick

"The Creator is NOT mentioned anywhere in our governing documents, i.e. The Constitution.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Now, the Declaration of Independence was a document that was presented to King George and the world, declaring separation from Britain, and the independence of the 13 British colonies.

The Declaration of Independence is the statement adopted by the Continental Congress meeting at Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on July 4, 1776, which announced that the thirteen American colonies, then at war with Great Britain, regarded themselves as thirteen newly independent sovereign states, and no longer a part of the British Empire.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

...................

Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

en.wikipedia.org...

Nature's God! Not the biblical god or the Christian god.

a reply to: windword

How do you know the Christian god isn't nature's god?

a reply to: VP740

Because the Christian God doesn't work within the confines of nature, he defies nature. Raising people from the dead, changing water to wine, walking on water and through walls, flying up to heaven...etc......

originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: windword

How do you know the Christian god isn't nature's god?

how do you know natures god isnt one of the hindu gods?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
it is the creator that the foundation of our government.

Not according to this.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It's foundation is "We the People of the United States". It says it right there. Man's Law, not God's Law. Yes we welcome all Religions Equally. Which is only possible by having a Government of Men/Women. A Secular Government.

You keep trying to argue this but every single time from whatever direction you try you fail. Why won't this click with you??

I'm back just to ask a simple question and request evidence.

I have seen on a handful of occasions now that some of you are proclaiming this nation to not only be a Christian nation, but to have been founded on and from Christianity.

My simple request is the following - provide proof other than your multi-paragraphed opinions. Proof, again, is not your opinion. I would consider proof here to be some documented form of evidence clearly showing and stating that the founding Fathers were devout Christians and that this government was founded on Christianity.

Recollecting on my years old research, the founding Fathers were mostly, as I recall, considered to be naturalists and philosophical materialists, among a mix other non-popular denominations of the time, but certainly not Christian.

Again, and lastly, please provide proof! Your ability to write and articulate your opinion is well noted, but I see no proof whatsoever.

The preponderance of the evidence in this argument seems to reside in the fact that this is a secular governing body that allows for the participation of all peoples (barring extreme criminal convictions, non citizens, etc.) that the founding Fathers did indeed create and which was supported by the vast majority of the people. Extensive research should also reveal to you their self identified faiths. Go research and take it from the historical facts and the infrastructure of the American government, don't take it from me. I know where I stand, and it is on present day fact and historical accuracy.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: deadeyedick
it is the creator that the foundation of our government.

Not according to this.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

It's foundation is "We the People of the United States". It says it right there. Man's Law, not God's Law. Yes we welcome all Religions Equally. Which is only possible by having a Government of Men/Women. A Secular Government.

You keep trying to argue this but every single time from whatever direction you try you fail. Why won't this click with you??

well the creator is the foundation of everything and the founding fathers believed in the creator.

there will never be any evidence that proves anything for anyone if their mind is already made up

a reply to: deadeyedick

Many of the founders were deists, and deists don't believe in the biblical creator. So, you can be sure they weren't talking about Yahweh or Jehovah as the creator, and certainly not Jesus.

Mentioning a creator and natural law and natural rights, doesn't make the Declaration of Independence a Christian document. But, it was served to a oppressive Christian government.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

there will never be any evidence that proves anything for anyone if their mind is already made up

Yes you've made that quite clear with your continued assertion despite the overwhelming evidence proving the opposite.

even if someone believes in a creator, it doesn't necessarily make them christians.....heck the native americans believed in a creator long before the were exposed to christianity by the europeans. if you read some of the writings of the founders, you kind of notice that many of them did not seem to speak too kindly of the established religious establishments of the time. so, well, like today, some may have even been christian, but they just didn't buy all the crap that the churches were putting out in god's name. we are now on page 40 of this thread, and well, I have to ask....just what is motivating you? even if everyone was a devout christian at the time and they chose to allow that religion shine through the gov't, we are a government of the people and for the people with no official religion established by the founders. if we the people were to, over time, become followers of another religion in a great majority, there is nothing in our gov't's framework or constitution that would insist that we hold onto those christian principles and there is nothing within it that would cause the christian minority to lose any rights. for the most part, such a transformation wouldn't affect anyone much at all...

originally posted by: theNLBS
Given the increased in religiously-inspired rhetoric in the election season ramp-up, and the various pundits and politicians adamantly stating the US is a "Christian Nation," we decided to dig into this particularly sensitive pile of BS. Because to us, the BS seems rather intense that a nation could go from it's founding fathers sending threatening letters to early faith-based local governments, to Presidents and Senators claiming Christian Nation status. We find the origins of the claim, and it might all come down to the placeoric speech.

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The members of the Presidential Bloodline believe in Islam. Hillary Diane Rodham = (177)... + Islam = (54) for a total of (231) = Hillary Rodham Clinton!

Franklin Delano Roosevelt | Islam | Social Security Administration = (267) + (54) + (345) = 666.

This is the "Number of the Beast" & undeniable proof that God exists!! Franklin Delano Roosevelt | Social Security Number | Here is Wisdom = (267) + (252) + (147) = 600-60-0006!

I'm a South African Christian and in my opinion there should not be a religious government anywhere in the world. Religion does not belong in any public office or institution. As a Christian, I don't want any school indoctrinating my children with their brand of Christianity or whatever other religion. Religion belongs at home....and we are not supposed to convert others by bible bashing or debate, but rather by the example we set...unfortunately most Christians can't practise what they preach and set poor examples. ..hence the dislike most non Christians have for them...sad state.

originally posted by: DbDraad
I'm a South African Christian and in my opinion there should not be a religious government anywhere in the world. Religion does not belong in any public office or institution. As a Christian, I don't want any school indoctrinating my children with their brand of Christianity or whatever other religion. Religion belongs at home....and we are not supposed to convert others by bible bashing or debate, but rather by the example we set...unfortunately most Christians can't practise what they preach and set poor examples. ..hence the dislike most non Christians have for them...sad state.

WOW! Star for you.

And thank you for "their brand of Christianity". I think their's 3500 different Christian sects in America alone.

If "they" allowed Christianity in public schools - - - next they'd be fighting over which "brand" of Christianity.

And, of course, it would be excluding every other belief.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: DbDraad
I'm a South African Christian and in my opinion there should not be a religious government anywhere in the world. Religion does not belong in any public office or institution. As a Christian, I don't want any school indoctrinating my children with their brand of Christianity or whatever other religion. Religion belongs at home....and we are not supposed to convert others by bible bashing or debate, but rather by the example we set...unfortunately most Christians can't practise what they preach and set poor examples. ..hence the dislike most non Christians have for them...sad state.

WOW! Star for you.

And thank you for "their brand of Christianity". I think their's 3500 different Christian sects in America alone.

If "they" allowed Christianity in public schools - - - next they'd be fighting over which "brand" of Christianity.

And, of course, it would be excluding every other belief.

Christianity is supposed to be about inclusion and tolerance. Christians tend to miss the point. We are all human and tend to forward our own beliefs...we should actually turn the other cheek. Christianity is a passive religion and all crusades in the name of Jesus is false to the extent of herecy. The Devil corrupted the church from day one.

originally posted by: DbDraad

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: DbDraad
I'm a South African Christian and in my opinion there should not be a religious government anywhere in the world. Religion does not belong in any public office or institution. As a Christian, I don't want any school indoctrinating my children with their brand of Christianity or whatever other religion. Religion belongs at home....and we are not supposed to convert others by bible bashing or debate, but rather by the example we set...unfortunately most Christians can't practise what they preach and set poor examples. ..hence the dislike most non Christians have for them...sad state.

WOW! Star for you.

And thank you for "their brand of Christianity". I think their's 3500 different Christian sects in America alone.

If "they" allowed Christianity in public schools - - - next they'd be fighting over which "brand" of Christianity.

And, of course, it would be excluding every other belief.

Christianity is supposed to be about inclusion and tolerance. Christians tend to miss the point. We are all human and tend to forward our own beliefs...we should actually turn the other cheek. Christianity is a passive religion and all crusades in the name of Jesus is false to the extent of herecy. The Devil corrupted the church from day one.

I was raised Christian. Not in one specific church, but several. My mom was disabled, believed in "you have to travel many paths" - - - so, I went to church with different neighbors, friends, etc.

Religion itself is man-made. Many (not all) ministers interpret the bible and tell their flock what to think and believe.

People are people. Some follow without question, some question everything. Some are good, some are bad. Some want power, some respect the rights of others.

Don't tell me Christianity is a passive belief. My family came to America because of the religious/power war in the Palatines.