NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

Can a nation in tbe sense most are debating be baptized by water, fire or spirit? Confess with the tongue or believe in the heart? Hear, see? Breathe, speak or eat?

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: dismanrc

You said: "Christian IDEALS". Then you SaId: "Christian BASED".

Not the same IMO.

The basic ideals of Christianity are common sense in how to live and treat others. You don't need the religion to have these ideals.

An atheist can have the same ideals. They are not religious ideals.

Yes but Atheist, as a large group, are a fairly new group in the world. Most of the Ideals we as Americans, and Europeans, are based on cultural norms that have developed over the past few hundred years. These norms where HIGHLY influenced by the church during the 200AD- 1600AD time period and more so moderately influenced 1700-1800's. If you have ever lived in a non-European area you will noticed what some of these norms are. Some of the ideas we take as fact are not even considered in Asia.

Religion; whether you believe in it or not; has shaped the cultural norms of people for thousands of years and by that has shaped the ideals we live by. Christianity, being the dominate religion in Europe for the period, has shaped our ideals. Just as Muslim has shaped the Middle East. Hindu has shaped India. Confucianism, Buddhism, Taoist and a few others have shaped Asia. Africa is truly messed-up in this sense with a clash of Muslim, Christianity and tribal systems that I have no idea now to truly explain.

With this in mind America and Europe (western at least) are very much Christan based in their norms and ideals. 200 years from now that may not be the truth, but today it still is.

a reply to: dismanrc

Atheism is not new, but like being gay, had to stay in the closet for livelihood - - - unless you were a prominent person that had enough clout that it didn't matter.

Are you implying an atheist does not have the same "ideals" as a person who believes in a god?

Anyway, please detail the difference between European ideals and those of a different culture.

To me, common sense humanity, does not require Christianity. The difference between an ideal and a belief.

a reply to: dismanrc

Some of the ideas we take as fact are not even considered in Asia.

Like what kind of "ideals"?

Religion; whether you believe in it or not; has shaped the cultural norms of people for thousands of years and by that has shaped the ideals we live by.

Really? Are corporate jobs, public education, credit card debt, car loans, mortgages and 401Ks influenced by Christianity? How?

BY DESIGN OF CHRISTIANS

Patrick Henry made a very clear statement: "It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ....It is for this reason that people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

and "a rose by any other name is still a rose…"

Benjamin Franklin stood and addressed the Continental Congress with these words: "In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor....Have we now forgotten this powerful friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?

I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

even jefferson

Thomas Jefferson
“(my views are a) result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and much different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.”

"I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other." Letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
even jefferson

Thomas Jefferson
“(my views are a) result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and much different from the anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.”

"I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other." Letter to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803

Our founding fathers were brilliant men and philosophers.

They discussed a lot of things including religion. They wrote LETTERS. A lot of letters. They did not have the internet.

You can't cherry pick a paragraph here, a paragraph there, to support what position you want to take. Because, in another letter/paragraph they may say something different or completely contradictory - - depending on the discussion - - and who that discussion was with.

Fact is, by intention, Christianity was not included in the Constitution. There was no god/creator mentioned in the first 2 drafts. Creator (in the sense of Deist) was added to the final draft, almost like an afterthought.

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
BY DESIGN OF CHRISTIANS

Patrick Henry made a very clear statement: "It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ....It is for this reason that people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

Wrong. He never said that. That is a false quote.

Another spurious quotation. These words appear nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of Patrick Henry. They attached to Henry via an April 1956 article that appeared in The Virginian (reprinted in September 1956 in The American Mercury) in which a snippet from his will was followed by comments penned by the article's author. Those comments included the "founded by Christians" statement now mistakenly attributed to Henry.
snopes

originally posted by: Verum1quaere
BY DESIGN OF CHRISTIANS

Patrick Henry made a very clear statement: "It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ....It is for this reason that people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

You need to provide your source(s) for the information you are providing.

There have been MANY misquotes and false information provided on this subject over the years.

a reply to: Annee

it is not just politics.

“(modern science) was born out of a Christian worldview.”
--J. Robert Oppenheimer “On Science an Culture”, Encounter, Oct. 1962

John Ray—Founder of Biology and Devout Christian
Ray quoted experiments by Francesco Redi which contradicted spontaneous generation. Ray said that “My observation and affirmation is that there is no such thing in nature” and he referred to spontaneous generation as “the atheist’s fictitious and ridiculous account of the first production of mankind and other animals.”
“He declared fossils were the petrified remains of extinct creatures. This was not accepted by biologists generally until a century later.”

who's the Creator?

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights...”
Declaration of Independence


The New England Charter, signed by King James 1, confirmed the goal of the first settlers to be: "to advance the enlargement of Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty."

if people understood the vast evil that had been perpetrated in the name only of Jesus by churches in Europe, how true Christians were killed for even knowing the Bible… how the Bible was banned on pain of death from 500 AD to 1500 AD…

they would understand our founding and our fore-fathers better…

The goal of government based on Scripture was affirmed by individual counties, such as is found in the Rhode Island Charter of 1683, which begins: "We submit our persons, lives and estates unto our Lord Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords and to all those perfect and most absolute laws of His given us in His holy Word."

yt: A Lamp In The Dark:untold history of Bible ~ Full Film
www.youtube.com...

Washington repeated chastised any sign of immorality in his men because he knew he needed God on his side…

the congress repeatedly issued national days of fasting and prayer for the same reason…

READ: George Washington's Sacred Fire
reviews:
An enlightening, engaging, and long overdue correction of the falsehood that Washington lacked faith. --Rodney Stark, Baylor University

. . . . Dr. Lillback burries the myth that Washington was an unbeliever - at most a "deist" - under an avalanche of facts . . . . --Robert P. George, Princeton University

Secular historians ignore George Washington's ward Nelly Custis, who wrote that doubting his Christian faith was as absurd as doubting his patriotism. But they cannot ignore this mountain of evidence suggesting Washington's religion was not Deism, but just the sort of low-church Anglicanism one would expect in an 18th century Virginia gentleman. His "sacred fire" lit America's path toward civil and religious liberty. --Walter A. McDougall, Pulitzer Prize Winning Author

a reply to: Verum1quaere

You are still not providing links and sources.

I'll let others take you on religiously.

the Founding Fathers believed one of the central tenets of the Bible: that humans are prone to dubious actions and decision-making and inherently corrupt, leading to corrupt systems.

Thus they chose "checks and balances"

some of them appear to have known about or followed some occult/gnostic knowledge, but most of them also seem to have at least suspected, if not out right believed, that Jesus is Lord.

a reply to: Annee

if you care enough, you will find the truth, amigo…

I am not writing a book, just noting that I have not found the Founders to be unaware of the God of the Bible…

if anything, some of them may have been unsure, given the history of evil people taking over human systems…but to say we are not a Christian nation is false, imo.

just look at the Scottish Nobility: they claim to be descended from the 12 tribes:
yt: Lost Tribes of Israel, Found in the Scottish Declaration of Independence!
youtu.be...


and the Founders likely had no idea the extent of the scholarship that has been done on the Bible:

yt: The Bible Is True! ~ The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Annee

and annee, I hope you wake up from your star trek programming…

think about how vast the universe is, just for a minute: trillions and trillions and trillions…

do you really think it matters if we travel into space?

time and space are a construct that are totally irrelevant to immortality and the Divine…

one reason the Bible is so predictive