NLBS #48: The United States Is Not, And Never Was, A Christian Nation

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: MrPlow

Christianity may be the predominant cluster of faiths in the US, there isn't anybody arguing that. What is up for dispute though is what defines a Christian nation. Even Christians in America can not agree on how to define what a Christian nation actually is which muddies the water even further so one has to look a little harder. You bring up 1 dictionary definitionof nation. However, the colloquial term is also used typically as -

The word "nation" is sometimes used as synonym for: State (polity) or sovereign state: a government which controls a specific territory, which may or may not be associated with any particular ethnic group Country: a geographic territory, which may or may not have an affiliation with a government or ethnic group Thus the phrase "nations of the world" could be referring to the top-level governments (as in the name for the United Nations), various large geographical territories, or various large ethnic groups of the planet. Depending on the meaning of "nation" used, the term "nation state" could be used to distinguish larger states from small city states, or could be used to distinguish multinational states from those with a single ethnic group.

Typically, when referring to the US as a nation, it is in fact referring to a sovereign state ruling over a set geographic territory as opposed to the definition which you have provided. This is the context within which the religious right/evengelicals/republicans typically utilize to drive their point home thus it makes the most sense to utilize that definition when arguing for or against the premise being so in regards to the U.S.

The bottom line is that while we may be a nation with a population who is Christian in majority, we are in fact a secular nation as that is the basis of our system of governance. Were we an actual Christian Nation, we would be Theocratic in nature or in a slightly more benign form, we would be like the UK when the Royal Family was still head of state as they were also the head of the Church of England after Henry VIII separated himself from Rome and set up shop for himself. Under that particular setup, Britain was far more of a Christian Nation than the US ever was. The Treaty of Tripoli cofifies the fact that we are and were, not a Christian nation as well. Following the logic you use in your point of view, the US then is a Democrat Nation as 48% of Americans are either registered Democrats or "lean" towards being democrats whereas only 39% are registered Republicans or "lean" towards Republican Ideology whereas the reality is that we are a Democratic Republic and a secular one at that.

That's a lot of words for a pretty simple stance I am taking.
I am merely stating, as a nation of Christians- this is a Christian "nation"
Our elected officials are going to be reflective of the populace. Our elected officials are going to, in theory, act on the will of the populace. We know that's not true most of the time, but that's a different discussion.

originally posted by: MrPlow

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: MrPlow

The United States is a Christian NATION because of one simple fact - Christianity (and all of it's sects and subsects) is the largest "practiced" religion in the country. Period.

As another poster pointed out: "A nation of Christians is not a Christian Nation".

It's just not the same thing.

Sure, they are the majority, and majority has the strongest influence. But, the USA is not a Democracy, which means majority does not rule.

Have the minorities been slow in speaking up and interfering with the majorities influence? Yes, they have.

However, they have the Constitution of a secular Democratic Republic on their side. Christianity has been losing most of their legal battles of control.

I think you made a great argument for why it is a Christian nation. As a nation of Christians, the dominant group is going to hold sway.
Yes, we are a Republic - however, it is still a "Democracy" The elected officials of the Republic are going to be reflective of the majorities positions and beliefs.

Only in your own mind.

There definitely is a battle going on now --- with Christians trying desperately to hold on to control.

They are losing. It's a slow legal movement, but they are losing.

We are not a Theocratic government, and we never will be.

a reply to: theNLBS

I guess things change.

I believe you could correctly say that we are nation founded by Christian founding fathers who were liberal enough to allow any religion to feel free to worship in our country. They felt that by welcoming all religions, no one religion would "take over." It is well known that they were mostly quite strong in their Christian faith. For example, they voted funding to print the Bible and insist it be used in schools. They made it a requirement for new lands that wanted to become territories and states that they teach the Bible in schools. christianity.about.com...

originally posted by: Jim Scott
For example, they voted funding to print the Bible and insist it be used in schools. They made it a requirement for new lands that wanted to become territories and states that they teach the Bible in schools.

That is not accurate.

You need to find the real facts on that.

How many replies on a topic is the ATS record? This has to be getting up there. This Jesus guy really is polarizing for people even today. Weird. a reply to: Annee

a reply to: MoreCowbell

How many replies on a topic is the ATS record? This has to be getting up there.

Not even close. I've seen threads with over 800 flags and with 1000+ pages.

I think this thread has run its course. It's pretty much confirmed that this nation is not and was never Christian. I understand that some people define "Christian nation" to mean that the majority of people living in the nation is Christian. But they are in the minority.

It was founded primarily by Masons escaping King George's tyrannical rulership and lack of freedoms but exorbitant taxation.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: theNLBS

In the traditional sense they were mostly deist. Had profound rational thoughts about god through reason and most of the founders thought organized religeon held back progress.

However, John Locke was very christian and quite a bit of the founders philosophy and the over all concept in the bill of rights was from Two Treaties of Government. So it could be argued christianity had a role. Locke did use the bible to try and come up with concepts of liberty and justice.

Don't confuse these people with facts.

The fact is that the US, as well as most of Europe, where based on Christian IDEALS. The main issue was that even at that time there was a BIG debate on which RELIGION was the "correct" one. By the 1700's Christianity had splintered into many part. Catholic on one side and Protestant on the other, and to confuse the issue even more each of these where broken down into dozens of smaller branches. The US was founded by predominantly Europeans, which predominantly believed in some type of Christian based religion.

The Founding Fathers were some of the wises and brilliant men in history. They had just broken away from England with the Anglican church holding a grip on the people there and did not want that to happen here. The fact that many of them where Deist also played a hand in this. None of them truely wanted to "name" one religion as the "true" one, but they did have a place for religion in their lives. That is why the idea of freedom of religion was included. Just by the fact that it was included says that they were thinking about it and thought it was important, or they never would have included it in the first place.

Are we a Christian nation? No. Are we a Christian BASED nation? Yes, just by the fact that we are predominantly a European historically based people. (Even look at the calendar we use, it's based on the Christian religion.)

The US has always just been a farm for the elite making money, IMO.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: MoreCowbell

How many replies on a topic is the ATS record? This has to be getting up there.

Not even close. I've seen threads with over 800 flags and with 1000+ pages.

I think this thread has run its course. It's pretty much confirmed that this nation is not and was never Christian. I understand that some people define "Christian nation" to mean that the majority of people living in the nation is Christian. But they are in the minority.

Just a question.

71% of the US claims some form of Christianity as their religion. Is this the minority you speak of?

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
And as I said earlier, the title of this thread is deliberately misleading. It's like saying English isn't our official language. Yes, that is technically correct, but for all intents and purposes, all government matters are conducted in English.

Our country was founded by Christian refugees and was then populated by literally every type of Christian the world has ever seen. The country was a melting pot not only racially and culturally, but was also a melting pot of predominantly Christian religions all with their pet peeves. So the NLBS buffoons can blabber on about how we're not a Christian nation, but when more than 70% of the population identifies themselves as Christian, the statement is truly meaningless and only intended to stir up controversy. NLBS used to be good, but now it's just wannabe hacks.

What is hilarious is the Christians have moderated the world more than any other religion in the entire world and made it better.Never seen such stupid debating over this subject than anything else.

a reply to: Jobeycool

What is hilarious is the Christians have moderated the world more than any other religion in the entire world and made it better.

Made it better, did it? Sure, I guess, if you think constant wars, perpetrated to conquer the planet in the name of your Jesus, eliminating freedom of religion, considering non-christian indigenous natives less that human, establishing colonialism and corporatism, deliberately spreading disease and Puritan self hatred...all done in order to take ahold sovereign lands.....if you think those things have made the planet a better place.....Well, I disagree.

a reply to: dismanrc

You said: "Christian IDEALS". Then you SaId: "Christian BASED".

Not the same IMO.

The basic ideals of Christianity are common sense in how to live and treat others. You don't need the religion to have these ideals.

An atheist can have the same ideals. They are not religious ideals.

Well, this country is dysfunctional, hates others that are not like it, willing to go to war because of that, socially immature, skims the surface when it comes to dealing with problems and puts it's priority on material goods rather than what drives us from the inside.

So yeah, I would say that this country is a christian nation, and pretty f**ked up because of it.

originally posted by: Jobeycool

originally posted by: Guidance.Is.Internal
And as I said earlier, the title of this thread is deliberately misleading. It's like saying English isn't our official language. Yes, that is technically correct, but for all intents and purposes, all government matters are conducted in English.

What is hilarious is the Christians have moderated the world more than any other religion in the entire world and made it better.Never seen such stupid debating over this subject than anything else.

What is hilarious is the fact that anyone thinks Christianity constantly meddling and moderating the world has made it better. Seriously, you only have to look to Africa where the still burn witches and give homosexuals life in prison or a death sentence to see Christianity is making nothing better. In the western world as Christianity looses its grip people are getting more tolerant and accepting. The things the human race can accomplish when they haven't got a book telling them who they are allowed to like.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: dismanrc

You said: "Christian IDEALS". Then you SaId: "Christian BASED".

Not the same IMO.

The basic ideals of Christianity are common sense in how to live and treat others. You don't need the religion to have these ideals.

An atheist can have the same ideals. They are not religious ideals.

Not to mention most of those supposed Christian ideals had been around a lot longer than any of the Abrahamic faiths. In reality it was founded on ideas passed down and recycled in to different religions over the years, Christianity just happened to be the prevailing one at the time.

originally posted by: Megatronus

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: dismanrc

You said: "Christian IDEALS". Then you SaId: "Christian BASED".

Not the same IMO.

The basic ideals of Christianity are common sense in how to live and treat others. You don't need the religion to have these ideals.

An atheist can have the same ideals. They are not religious ideals.

Not to mention most of those supposed Christian ideals had been around a lot longer than any of the Abrahamic faiths. In reality it was founded on ideas passed down and recycled in to different religions over the years, Christianity just happened to be the prevailing one at the time.

Oh, absolutely!

Here are the 10 Commandments of Solon, around 638 B.C.E.

The simplicity of Christ's message (whether he was real or not), has been totally corrupted by man and the religion man created in His name.

The ideals Yes! The religion No!

Let us now turn to the Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60), which run as follows:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses? By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

infidels.org...

On crash course to WW3 or Battle of Armageddon with the mad conversations that explode with this subject.

a reply to: dismanrc

71% of the US claims some form of Christianity as their religion. Is this the minority you speak of?

No I am talking about those people who call this nation "Christian".