Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

I know very little about Islam. Oh, I know a little, like the five pillars and all...

Why is it, with religious thought - people work to tear down what they don't agree with? Instead, why are we not looking for connections, building bridges, and working toward reformation of thought and practice? Instead of trying to tear each other down, why instead do we not choose to work together and fix those things that separate each of us from one another?

This is a very good thread, but it could have been presented better, I think. As an appeal for change and reformation of what man has corrupted, instead of an appeal to people of a certain faith to walk away from Islam.

Cirque

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by MrBotan
You are extremely ignorant, 'orgy' and 'women servicing men'... I wonder how people get to these types of conclusions

No. I"m well educated. And how people get to these types of conclusions ... is by READING THE QU'RAN. Dude .. the misogyny is as thick as pea soup in there. Take a long hard look at the afterlife of Islam. One big orgy of the physical senses for the men. One long 'servicing' of the men for the women. It's there. It's carnal. Deal with it.

www.youtube.com...

What are the 72 virgins

Islamic Afterlife

Paradise (firdaws), also called "The Garden" (Janna), is a place of physical and spiritual pleasure, with lofty mansions (39:20, 29:58-59), delicious food and drink (52:22, 52:19, 38:51), and virgin companions called houris (56:17-19, 52:24-25, 76:19, 56:35-38, 37:48-49, 38:52-54, 44:51-56, 52:20-21). There are seven heavens (17:46, 23:88, 41:11, 65:12).

Really interesting read ....
Former Muslim Describes the Islamic Afterlife

What is expected of muslim wives on earth is also expected of them in the afterlife - sex on demand

LIKE I SAID ... one big orgy. All mundane. All based on sex. Nothing spiritual.

I am a Muslim, I assume you're not. What is described there is utter bullsh*t. I don't even know why I replied to you.

reply to post by mideast


Muhammad was also a mystic. The Quran was revealed to him by mystical or occult means.

It is all of these attributes, what you mention and I mention that made him such a great man.

The average human would have no capacity to receive revelation from an ultra human such as the intelligence Gabriel or Jibril

I am not an Iranian but have been involved in an Iranian order for many years

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by MrBotan
Islam does not allow Husbands to beat wives nor does it allow Honour killings and many other things you mentioned.

So entire Islamic countries are not really Islamic? Riiiiight. :shk:

Tell that to the majority of women in Saudi Arabia who are abused by their muslim family members.
Albawa News - Not one law in Saudi Arabia Against Beating Women
Beating Women Common in Saudi Arabia

Nearly half Saudi women are beaten up by their husbands or other family members at home and many of them are hit by sticks and head cover, according to a university study published in local newspapers on Tuesday.

Surprisingly, the study found that the Bedouin men who still dwell the desert in the conservative Gulf Kingdom, are less violent than Saudi men in urban areas.

The study was conducted by Dr Lateefa Abdul Lateef, a social science professor at King Saud University in the Capital Riyadh. It involved female students at the university and some Saudi women covered by the government’s social security.

“The study showed that nearly half those covered by social security and more than a third of the female students at the university are beaten up at home,” Dr Lateefa said, quoted by the Saudi Arabic language daily Almadina.

There is more ... so much more ... but that gets the point across.

Women have the right to dress as they want,

Tell that to the women of Iran who have to deal with the 'morals police'.
www.youtube.com...

Same goes for men.

Tell that to the men of Iran who aren't 'muslim enough' with their facial hair or who dare to want mullets.
Iran declares war on mullets and ponytails for men

Oh .. and as for the comment that it's all traditions and not religion to blame for the abuse ..
Iranian Chamber

Iranian culture is Class based, traditional and patriarchal. Tradition for most is rooted in religion and class and patriarchy have been constant features of Iranian society since ancient times. -

See that? Tradition is mostly rooted in religion. IT IS about religion ..

edit on 8/19/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

So if a Catholic priest sexually abuses a Child, the problem is Christianity's? or the individuals interpretation of it?

And Yes, entire Islamic countries are corrupt because they follow their own personal beliefs and NOT the Quran. Example: Saudi Arabia. Women can't drive, when there is nowhere in Islam which prohibits them. Women can't have their own Business or work in them, bbc had done a program in which they went to a Womens underwear store and two men were working there, ironically the male cameraman wasn't allowed in.

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by MrBotan

 

well your wrong its pretty clear she was 6 years old. Its also clear Abu Bakr (her father) was not liking the idea of Mohammad marrying his daughter.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Again here.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Also here as well

Sahih Bukhari 5.236. Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

As to her father he obviously didnt agree with the marriage but oddly not on the grounds of her age it was on the fact he was his brother making her his niece.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

So id say its very clear how old she is
However in a similar circumstance the prophet Mohammad refuses to marry because she is his niece figure that one out?

Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37 Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: It was said to the Prophet, "Won't you marry the daughter of Hamza?" He said, "She is my foster niece (brother's daughter). "

The site I linked made it pretty clear, she could not have been 6.
But continue to believe whatever you want.

Speaking of Buddhism.
The original meaning of Buddhism was “the way” or middle way

Tariqah is the term that designated formal Sufism; it means “the path or way”

Sufism, the inner meaning of Islam, and esoteric Buddhism are very similar

Also, BTW, the Sufis say Jesus is their symbolic head.

Also, Those who mock the Quran should understand that much of it, including the terms relating to “paradise” is allegorical.

The Quran has 7 levels of interpretation

Originally posted by Willtell
reply to post by mideast

 

Muhammad was also a mystic. The Quran was revealed to him by mystical or occult means.

It is all of these attributes, what you mention and I mention that made him such a great man.

The average human would have no capacity to receive revelation from an ultra human such as the intelligence Gabriel or Jibril

I am not an Iranian but have been involved in an Iranian order for many years

So was Joseph smith an angel came to him as well and started a religion.So he also must have been an ultra human as you put it.

reply to post by Willtell


He was mystic but the brilliant part was that he knew who is dealing with.

I do believe in Irfan , but I do believe in welayat ,too. It is the wali who calls takes his followers and it is important that god recognized him(the wali) as true Wali or not.

The final part of Sura kahf says that Muhammad pbuh was a human , it is not ultra-human or god would have said that if necessary. And the hardest part of mission of messengers was to explain to people that they are human and they are bringing message from god.

There are many mysteries in some secret satanist societies such as freemasonry. They use symbolism in every thing and they interpret things differently in each level.

But does that even worth trying ? No , because the Wali is not clear and there are many unclear event and satanist rituals related to them.

Originally posted by MrBotan

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by MrBotan

 

well your wrong its pretty clear she was 6 years old. Its also clear Abu Bakr (her father) was not liking the idea of Mohammad marrying his daughter.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Again here.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Also here as well

Sahih Bukhari 5.236. Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

As to her father he obviously didnt agree with the marriage but oddly not on the grounds of her age it was on the fact he was his brother making her his niece.

Sahih Bukhari 7.18 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry."

So id say its very clear how old she is
However in a similar circumstance the prophet Mohammad refuses to marry because she is his niece figure that one out?

Sahih Bukhari V.7, B62, N. 37 Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: It was said to the Prophet, "Won't you marry the daughter of Hamza?" He said, "She is my foster niece (brother's daughter). "

The site I linked made it pretty clear, she could not have been 6.
But continue to believe whatever you want.

So your calling the people entrusted to recite the Koran and pass along its knowledge liars is that correct?

People are to easily fooled by what they want to believe and ignore facts.

reply to post by dragonridr


Joseph Smith claimed he got the Books of Mormon from the angel Moroni from a cave.

He didn’t claim, as did Muhammad, that the revelation was a mystical and occult experience.

True Islam, Sufism, doesn’t depend on faith alone. It depends on personal spiritual experience to validate faith, which is only a theory.
When one has that experience then they know through what is called
“The Truth Of certainty

3 LEVELS OF KNOWLEDGE:
1. Lore of certainty: Books, traditions, scriptures, etc

2. Eye of Certainty: Personal experiences of the extra conscious, synchronicity and occult knowledge. Etc.

3. Truth of Certainty: Personal revelation of the divine, above and beyond the previous levels.
Examples:
Moses at the burning Bush
Muhammad’s flight to heaven on Buruq. And his revalation from the intellgence Jibril.
Jesus’ miracles

Today we call this full enlightenment

Originally posted by wildtimes
Maybe I should start a new thread highlighting Wafa Sultan...
I notice the apologists are ignoring the short 8+ minute video that describes her upbringing and worldview.

No response at all!

Telling.

you do that, read this article first
sorry, it just amazes me how you manage to always end up with the same kind of "experts" and "survivors" of islam

www.loonwatch.com/2009/11/wafa-sultan-a-poseur-playing-off-of-ignorance-to-further-hate/

Originally posted by Willtell
Muhammad was also a mystic. The Quran was revealed to him by mystical or occult means.

He was no mystic. He stole bits and pieces of other religions and spliced them together to invent his new Muslim religion. And when he was transcribing from the christians, the jews, the zorostarians, and the pagans ... he messed it up and didn't even get it right.

Originally posted by MrBotan
I am a Muslim, I assume you're not. What is described there is utter bullsh*t. I don't even know why I replied to you.

Your religion and my religious beliefs are irrelevant. Facts are facts. I posted exactly what the Islamic religion says goes on in the afterlife. Sex sex sex. Orgies of the senses ... food and sex. Totally mundane. Not spiritual. Scream BS all you want ... but it doesn't change the truth of what I posted.

Originally posted by Willtell
Joseph Smith claimed he got the Books of Mormon from the angel Moroni from a cave.

Yeah .... that's what he claimed. Easily debunked.
www.southparkstudios.com...
South Park episode .... sing along ... dum dum dum dum dum ....

Originally posted by MrBotan
So if a Catholic priest sexually abuses a Child, the problem is Christianity's? or the individuals interpretation of it?

The Catholic faith doesn't call for sexual abuse. Neither do the priests. However, in Islam the Imams and leadership do indeed call for beating women. So does that so called 'holy book'. For you to claim it is just 'individual interpretations' is bull. Islam is full of misogyny.

And Yes, entire Islamic countries are corrupt because they follow their own personal beliefs and NOT the Quran.

Oh please .... they are following Islam. They don't follow YOUR interpretation of Islam.

Your ignorance is beyond belief.

Right back atchya. :shk: I'm posting facts. Deal with it.

Originally posted by Willtell
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Joseph Smith claimed he got the Books of Mormon from the angel Moroni from a cave.

He didn’t claim, as did Muhammad, that the revelation was a mystical and occult experience.

True Islam, Sufism, doesn’t depend on faith alone. It depends on personal spiritual experience to validate faith, which is only a theory.
When one has that experience then they know through what is called
“The Truth Of certainty

3 LEVELS OF KNOWLEDGE:
1. Lore of certainty: Books, traditions, scriptures, etc

2. Eye of Certainty: Personal experiences of the extra conscious, synchronicity and occult knowledge. Etc.

3. Truth of Certainty: Personal revelation of the divine, above and beyond the previous levels.
Examples:
Moses at the burning Bush
Muhammad’s flight to heaven on Buruq. And his revalation from the intellgence Jibril.
Jesus’ miracles

Today we call this full enlightenment

Joseph Smith claimed he was visited by " Nephi an angel of the Lord" though they may be the same angel as all religious leaders he tended to be contradictory, But yet you see no similarities? However its neither here no there so i guess one angel is better then another?

Originally posted by mideast
Muhammad pbuh was a war commander , a messenger , a prophet , a politician and head of Muslim community

Muhammad was a murderer, a caravan thief, a fraud, a plagiarist and a typical politician who lied to get the power he wanted. He was also the 'husband' of little children. The historical facts back that up.

reply to post by dragonridr


I have never found any exegesis of the Quran from the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt (as) to be unclear or contradictory... ever... And I have looked very objectively... actually, I find the whole thing to make such perfect sense can be so beautiful that it takes you aback....

reply to post by FlyersFan


You guys have your belief and others have theirs.
You can’t even prove to yourself what you believe.
You have a right to those ideas but you can not prove Muhammad wasn’t what he said he is and we can’t make you believe it

Known great mystics like Rumi and Ibn Arabi, AL Gazzali, giants of mysticism, believe otherwise. They and many others are followers of Muhammad.
And billions of others.
All you can do is get slanderous material from Islamic haters, not a hard thing to do.
Others can get material that supports Muhammad
So where are we left?

All you are doing is arguing your beliefs one to another usually in a rude and uncivil manner by insulting each others beliefs. Hardly a way to learn anything.

reply to post by FlyersFan


"Muhammad was a murderer, a caravan thief, a fraud, a plagiarist and a typical politician who lied to get the power he wanted. He was also the 'husband' of little children. The historical facts back that up."

Apparently he was also illiterate, so a typical politician!