Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

Originally posted by Robbnn
Probably already covered many times, BUT... Blaming America collectively (especially today) is silly. My family came over from Ireland by way of Scandinavia 100 years ago and did not participate in either the Indian's downfall or Black slavery. I was saddened and ashamed when I learned of the Trail of Tears and all the other atrocities, but I had nothing to do with them and neither did any of my kin. A good portion of America was dragged here against their will as slaves, so their descendants have nothing to feel guilty about.

What we can feel guilty about is the debasement of a conquered people. End the reservation system; if they want to keep it as sovereign land, fine, but no more government checks, no more help. They live, die or assimilate as a proud people beholden to no one. The system we have now is practically slavery. (And American Indians are no more native than I am; they came from Europe and Asia).

There's one main area I'd disagree with you and that is ending the reservation system. For traditional peoples they are the only buffer left protecting their ability to live according to their cultures and traditions. Taking that away and throwing them into the dominant culture would be the final genocide of their way of life.

As for stopping their checks, that was an agreement made with them by the federal government when their lands were taken, should that treaty also be broken? BTW, reservations are not sovereign land, they are governed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, a federal agency. The natives are federal "dependents".

For traditional peoples they are the only buffer left protecting their ability to live according to their cultures and traditions. Taking that away and throwing them into the dominant culture would be the final genocide of their way of life.

As for stopping their checks, that was an agreement made with them by the federal government when their lands were taken, should that treaty also be broken? BTW, reservations are not sovereign land, they are governed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, a federal agency. The natives are federal "dependents".

While I hear you, it does not address this idea of blaming Americans for what happened. Do you suggest we keep their traditions? All people's traditions either survive on their effort or die. It's up to the people to value them enough to keep them alive. I'd be just as happy to give them full nationhood status with their own currency and laws. They can decide to do what they want in their nation.

I don't really see what people expect me to do about it.

Originally posted by James1982
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

I just don't think the OP, or a few other people in this thread, have an accurate idea of the peoples of this continent before whitey showed up. They are people, just like everyone else. They had their differences and negative aspects just like every other people on this planet.

It's obvious they don't have an accurate view because they keep lumping all native peoples together like I said before. There is NO "they" with the native peoples. They were just as divided as any other place.

Just like how many people have a incorrect view of muslims. They lump all muslims together, not realizing there is HUGE division within islam between the sunni and shia followers.

That's correct, but the division between Sunni and Shia has been exacerbated and politically exploited, and now that you mention it, its actually very similar to the way the Brits and French would sic tribes on each other, sometimes using false flag attacks to get the Indians to fight not only each other but their opponents for them.

But back to the Muslims.

For centuries, Sunnis and Shias (as well as Christians, Jews and other religious groups) have lived closely intertwined with one another to a degree without parallel elsewhere in the world. Even where they have exerted power through distinct political structures, the argument that this has equated to conflict does not stand up to even a cursory analysis. While the Sunni Ottoman Empire and Shia Safavid Empire experienced their share of conflict, they also lived peaceably alongside one another for hundreds of years, even considering it shameful to engage in conflict with one another as Muslim powers.

www.aljazeera.com...

Nothing is as cut and dried as it may seem.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

To commit murder I believe you need
a) to be a certain type of person (we are not talking about monkeys). Not everybody will do that.
b) "collective" is not a race. Soccer fans in the stadium are a collective, members of a party etc.

You have not read any of my posts, I never talked about Europeans but Americans, in particular after 1776, and repeatedly stated that guilt or blame are not the issue.

"Since the earliest days of humanity we have been slaughtering and enslaving each other on a massive scale", sounds like a good excuse for a genocide. I hope you feel happy without any negative feelings.

I've read every single one of your replies to me, a few twice over. It seems to be you that has not read my posts, either that or you are intentionally twisting my words.

Here are a few examples of your word twisting or straight up fabrication:

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
(we are not talking about monkeys). Not everybody will do that.

Ok.... when did I say we were talking about monkeys? I mentioned apes but not in this context. You were saying you need a certain type of person to commit murder. I said yes you do, that type of person is called a human. Humans of ALL types, all races, genders, age, upbringing, location, etc etc etc commit murder. There is no specific type. And when you bring self defense into it, murder becomes even more natural. You cannot argue that the natives were a threat to the settlers. The settlers, whether right or wrong, did have to fight for their lives a lot of the time.

You are implying that Europeans are worse than others when it comes to willingness to kill.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
b) "collective" is not a race. Soccer fans in the stadium are a collective, members of a party etc.

I don't know what you are talking about again. The human race IS a collective. It's a collective of humans. But why are you nitpicking terminology? You say you need to be apart of a collective that approves of murder? Well that collective IS THE HUMAN RACE. Killing someone else has been apart of every civilization and culture in the history of the human race. You try to eliminate threats to ensure your safety. That usually means killing those threats.

You are implying, once again, that Europeans are somehow worse than others when in comes to willingness and acceptability of killing others. History would prove your implication false.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
"Since the earliest days of humanity we have been slaughtering and enslaving each other on a massive scale", sounds like a good excuse for a genocide. I hope you feel happy without any negative feelings.

Here you go twisting words and inserting ideas that I never said. That type of behavior is generally frowned upon in discussions.

Where did I say I was happy about genocide? Can you quote me anywhere I said that, or even where I was implying that? I am not happy about genocide. But I'm not arguing in defense of genocide, saying it's OK because it's happened so often before by basically every race and culture on this planet.

I'm arguing against the idea that you keep implying, that Europeans are somehow some different, evil race of people. That's why the evidence of atrocities dating back to the dawn of man before Europeans is relevant information to this discussion. Because it proves that Europeans are NOT some sort of different evil race, ALL races at some point in time have done evil things.

But you twist my words to say I'm defending genocide.

You are also being a bit wishy-washy with your stance here. You say this thread is not about placing blame or anything else, correct? But then you go on to say that by me simply bringing up human nature as demonstrated by human history, that I am trying to "excuse genocide" If your goal is not to place blame what would I be trying to excuse? You only make excuses for things in order to avoid blame, if you aren't dealing out any blame that wouldn't make sense would it?

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

While I hear you, it does not address this idea of blaming Americans for what happened. Do you suggest we keep their traditions? All people's traditions either survive on their effort or die. It's up to the people to value them enough to keep them alive. I'd be just as happy to give them full nationhood status with their own currency and laws. They can decide to do what they want in their nation.

I don't really see what people expect me to do about it.

Maybe you could find a quote from me somewhere that "blames Americans" for what has been happening to American Indians and First Nations in Canada for the past 500 years. I blame ignorance, but more so I blame those who work so diligently to keep Americans living in that comfortable cocoon of ignorance. Are we too timid to venture out of the cocoon and have a look around for ourselves?

As Henry Ford said about people in the cocoon, if Americans knew what the bankers were doing to them there would be revolution by morning. That was more'n a couple years ago, ya know, and apparently Americans STILL don't know what the bankers are doing to them, or won't admit it, even with all the proof right out there in front of god and everybody. Again, are Americans too timid to look the bankers and the government that protects them square in the face and say "ENOUGH, you're done here".

The Lakota tried to do as you suggest back in 2007, they hand delivered their secession notice to Washington DC. The government and their lap dog media pretended they didn't exist.
www.commondreams.org...

So what would I ask you to do? Break out of the cocoon. Try to see things from both sides of the fence and then decide your own truth. That's it. Pretty simple.

I'm still wanting this question the OP said they wanted to discuss honestly.

This thread is basically pages and pages of:

OP "Europeans are so evil!"

Others "They aren't anymore evil than anyone else!"

OP "Well I'm not placing blame at all, that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about honestly discussing the question"

Others "What's the question?"

OP "....."

Others "What's the question?"

OP "......."

Others "I think that was just buzzword gibberish to make it seem as if you were actually saying something when you weren't saying anything at all.

reply to post by frazzle

That's correct, but the division between Sunni and Shia has been exacerbated and politically exploited,.....

To a certain extent that's true - but the differences, and killing, between Sunni's and Shi'a go back centuries.
Many Sunni's and Shi'a have and indeed do live in peace side by side with each other, but at various times throughout history some Sunni's and some Shi'a have revelled in slaughtering each other.
The hatred has to exist in the first place for someone to be able to exploit it.

..... its actually very similar to the way the Brits and French would sic tribes on each other,

The Native American tribes jumped at the chance to settle old scores that had existed since prior to European settlement.....sure the British, French, Spanish and Dutch etc exploited it, but those differences had to exist for them to be able to do so.

Perhaps you should read this post again.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

sometimes using false flag attacks to get the Indians to fight not only each other but their opponents for them.

Have you got any evidence of these 'false flags' or are you just imagining them out of thin air.

I am practically speechless about your perception of how idyllic you believe pre-Colombian American society was, what on earth gives you this impression?

reply to post by frazzle


Again, upon breaking out of some cocoon what do you want me to do? Am I to start Indian tradition schools? I think some American Indians might be insulted by that action. Are you suggesting the Federal government create such an endeavor? They do such a great job at reading, writing and arithmetic, surely indigenous traditions is a piece of cake including nearly dead language.

I am not uncaring about the American Indian. I love some of their culture. I am not versed in all of it, but besides appreciating it, loving them as a people, what exactly is my "cocoon" preventing? I do not see how a thread about how awful American's are and how we have done more genocide than any other culture has been proven. All I see is people with massive ego's thinking it's their fault and by extension all Americans.

This is a ridiculous thread and I'm done with it.

The slaughter you are talking about happened before America was a country. Every drop of blood is from immigrants from other countries

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by frazzle

 

That's correct, but the division between Sunni and Shia has been exacerbated and politically exploited,.....

To a certain extent that's true - but the differences, and killing, between Sunni's and Shi'a go back centuries.
Many Sunni's and Shi'a have and indeed do live in peace side by side with each other, but at various times throughout history some Sunni's and some Shi'a have revelled in slaughtering each other.
The hatred has to exist in the first place for someone to be able to exploit it.

I'd need to see some historical references to these ancient slaughters. All I can find are recent upheavals. Got any handy links to share?

The Native American tribes jumped at the chance to settle old scores that had existed since prior to European settlement.....sure the British, French, Spanish and Dutch etc exploited it, but those differences had to exist for them to be able to do so.

Perhaps you should read this post again.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How do you know the tribes jumped at the chance to settle these old scores? Why did they wait until the Europeans had pushed them into each others space before they attacked their old enemies? Whose idea was it that warriors should bring in scalps to get rewards? Who was promising rewards?

Have you got any evidence of these 'false flags' or are you just imagining them out of thin air.

Hell's bells man, the Boston Tea Party was a bunch of white men dressed up like Indians. Do you think that was a new and unique idea and was only used in that one instance?

I am practically speechless about your perception of how idyllic you believe pre-Colombian American society was, what on earth gives you this impression?

You don't seem particularly speechless.

Maybe my ideas come from actual communications with the descendants of the people in question and time spent learning their views of the events, as well as doing a great deal of reading on the subject. And I won't lie, there's more to know than one brain can comprehend because they aren't cardboard cutouts.

My Grandmothers Grandfather was General Philip Sheridan. He did unspeakable things to the Native Americans. Ever since I learned of my link to him I have felt a bit of guilt. On behalf of myself,(I cannot speak for the rest of my Family) I am deeply sorry for the atrocities that he was responsible for by issuing orders to kill off the Natives food sources, mainly the Buffaloes, herding them into camps and whatever else he did. I am not saying that I am not proud to be one of his Grandchildren, he helped greatly ending the Civil War and the creation of Yellowstone Park, as well as saving Chicago during the great fire. I am just saying he did a great and Honorable service to the U.S. Being one of only four 4 star generals Commanders of the Army until WW2. Himself, Sherman, Grant, Washington, and Pershing.

Originally posted by IvanAstikov
That's why the 18th century slave trade took off so big. You'd killed all the home-grown ones and had to start importing.

This is really ignorant. This happened during the colonization period which has nothing to do with this generation or myself. Your statement has racial tension in mind and doesn't belong here. It has the same logic as if a white person says "well, the reason why the slave trade took off so big was because you didn't fight back, you just let the slavers come in and take you, so it's your fault." This post is a waste of time and a terrible effort to make a point. Not one American should ever apologize or feel guilty for these things. I mean what exactly do you want to achieve? Should we regret history? Absolutely not. Should we forget history? No way. Should we blame ourselves for history before our time? It's illogical. What we can do and should do however, is learn from it. And not repeat it. Try next time making your point with fact not emotion. "everybody else in the world feels the same way". Bold statement, care to back it up with evidence. I'm an international traveler and I can tell you from experience, not what media tells you, that collectively the world is a very intelligent place with intelligent people. And I can't tell you of any culture that blames us for this so called genocide. In fact, most people I talk to in other countries know the difference between the peoples actions versus government actions. Take a real look around and you will see how many non profit organizations started by "us" not "government" that are providing help to other nations. And it's purely on a voluntary level. And this statement: "Americans committed the worst genocide in world history" That's a very debatable opinion. Are you familiar with what has been going on in Africa and the middle east? And since way before America. How about the muslim army in biblical times? And then the christians during the crusades? Romans? No need to blame the current American generation for what past generations have achieved. Seems counterproductive at best.

Read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. It gives you the low down on history from the Native American perspective. I could not put it down and read it in one sitting. They should teach it in American History class in American schools.

50 million? What census did you pull those figures from OP? Another thing I hate is referring to others as "native". We're all native to this planet...the "Indians" migrated here from Asia from the Asian land bridge... They're about as native as anyone on this planet...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Metallicus
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

I was born in the 1960s and didn't have anything to do with it...I also didn't have anything to do with the slaves. My relatives still lived in Germany until the 1930s and sorry to say they didn't have anything to do with it either.

What exactly is your point? Should I still be angry with the Romans for enslaving my long lost relatives? I am responsible only for my actions and my life. I am more concerned with the problems of today. At least with those I can actually work towards a solution.

I am not sure what the OP point is. But the facts are true: Europeans destroyed the cultures that were existing here. Our founding fathers were very happy to borrow many of their governmental concepts from the Indians. There were valuable cultures here. Up north there are traces of the Indians Further south.....not so much. They don't identify with their indian heritage. They identify with the culture that supplanted them.

A quarter of my heritage is "native American" and I agree with the OP. However, we should not wholesale blame all Europeans for what happened. It's not much different than today because it's the leaders of countries that cause these things to happen. I'm convinced that the average person would not condone these acts if they knew they were occurring. I would like to think the vast bulk of humanity is above this sort of inhuman behavior. When I look at recent history, with the fake wars, fake enemies with accompanying massive bloodshed and boldface lies being told to us all, regardless of who our ancestors were, I'm not encouraged that many can get past believing the propaganda sold to us.

Who's we ? You got a turd in your pocket? My family was in Italy making love to the most beautiful women during this time

Originally posted by Rodia1017
Who's we ? You got a turd in your pocket? My family was in Italy making love to the most beautiful women during this time

edit on 3-8-2013 by Rodia1017 because: Forgot

OMG I had to laugh at this one. Admittedly, I only skimmed this thread after reading the OP, but I love this reply. I have found a disturbing trend, almost like a contest, to find "WHO COMMITTED THE WORST ATROCITIES IN HISTORY". Why is it so hard to understand that atrocities have been committed throughout history by (probably) all societies? We take away from the gravity of each of these atrocities by trying to compare them. They are all horrible. Stop comparing them.

Quite frankly, I (speaking from my Native American heritage, here) don't blame anyone alive today for what happened 100, 200, 500, 1000 years ago. I do not take responsibility for something done before I was born. I do not take responsibility for something done by anyone but myself.

As far as the worst atrocities ever committed in the world? Ever hear about the Mongolians and in particular a man by the name Genghis Khan? I didnt think so...Yea, you need to read up on your history...

After reading through this topic, and replying to only be ignored by the OP to my questions, I did a little thinking. How is it possible to have a "worst" genocide. Is one less atrocious than the next? Numbers have been called into question SEVERAL times, and those numbers vary. Does a mass genocide of 5 million people mean it's any less atrocious than that of 500 million?

This topic is a blame game on the US. More hatred and slander towards this country, no more, no less. There were MORE THAN ONE country involved in this genocide, as the same with others in the past.

What is the real point of this topic?

How does one genocide trump another?

Shouldn't this topic properly be named "Humans committed the worst genocide in history"?

Open your mind and really think....

I get so tired of hearing/reading about how we screwed over the "indians". Yes I call them "indians".

If you just dont get it yet, I'll remind you that the human race is crazy. The past, present, and sure to be future of mankind is full of wrong doings on all sorts of levels. Does this make it right? Of course not.

Besides, I personally believe more people throughout history have been slaughterd in the name of god than any other reason. Ever.

But we dont want to talk about that now do we?

Tell me. Has there really been any nation on earth free of human rights violations in their past?

Doesn't make it right. But the blame game gets old.

A little hint. The world will never be fully at peace. It isn't in human nature. There will always be envy, greed, lust, and jealousy.

Its the way of the world. Peace is a pipe dream friend.