Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

You should be sorry. We are talking about millions of people killed, entire civilizations wiped out, by your ancestors and mine.

So step up and say sorry, do something instead of start a thread telling others they have the same issue as you do but its them that should feel sorry.

Thinking

or better yet

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by frazzle

 

Past wrongs? How about current wrongs.

Hallelujah.

This thread is going round in circles and achieving absolutely nothing.
It's nothing but playing the 'blame game'.

Whilst it's important to have an understanding of why and how things happened surely people's time would be better spent trying to actually sort out the mess and help construct positive policies that will enable Native Americans to take control of their own lives and develop as they see fit.

This thread is 25+ pages of finger pointing and passing the buck.

What needs to be done in the here and now?

Yes, before anything can be done in the here and now there has to be an understanding of the past. Too many people can't see that connection but I'm glad that you do.

Willful denial of what happened in the past seems to be where we're stuck, which is why the conversation goes round in circles. Actually, the human tendency to deny anything that might be uncomfortable to think about explains why the whole country is circling the drain. You'd think we lived by a river in Egypt.

ETA: Sorry, I didn't answer your question. What can be done in the here and now. There are many people all over the country doing things, volunteering time, sending donations and gifts, etc. to people in need. But the one that gripes me most is the fund set up to pay heating bills to the power companies in SD. It just doesn't seem to be helping anyone and there is NO way to track whether or not donations paid directly to the electric companies actually provide power to anyone since the company's books are not open to public scrutiny. They could pocket all those donations and no one would be the wiser.

Same with the big charities. Send money for aid to Haiti or wherever and the money never reaches the people in need. Who pockets all that money?

You'd think, in this age of instant connections with others all over the world, that we'd be able to do some direct aid for things that matter to us personally. Find a family or a local charity and donate. All anyone needs is some interest and a few key strokes on a search engine to find that information.

jmo

The same happened in Australia with the Aboriginals. And you wonder why they hate us? I don't.

Originally posted by frazzle

Willful denial of what happened in the past seems to be where we're stuck, which is why the conversation goes round in circles.

Did I miss a post? I see no one denying what happened. We seem to be stuck more on what can be done.

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by frazzle

Willful denial of what happened in the past seems to be where we're stuck, which is why the conversation goes round in circles.

Did I miss a post? I see no one denying what happened. We seem to be stuck more on what can be done.

Not denying that "something" happened, only that it was NOT the "worst", or the "numbers are wrong", or the title of the thread is wrong. But there are repetitive claims that "It wasn't that many, they all died of disease before we got here and we weren't there to kill anybody." Well, all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional" despite government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

I added a little something to an earlier post about something that can be done although it will never be enough because we are ruled and robbed by the same crooked politicians and corporations that continually thieve from the Indians.

Land Grab Cheats North Dakota Tribes Out of $1 Billion, Suits Allege

www.propublica.org...

Sadly, we can't even seem to help ourselves. Worse, many don't think there's anything wrong with being stolen from.

The United Nations began an investigation into the plight of Native American Indians last year. For anyone who has not seen it:-

www.theguardian.com...

Originally posted by alldaylong
The United Nations began an investigation into the plight of Native American Indians last year. For anyone who has not seen it:-

www.theguardian.com...

They have to make themselves look relevant, that's all it is and their investigation will drag on for years with no resolution. The UN has never brought justice or peace to anyone and it never will. All it ever did was usurp the member nation's sovereignty, including our own.

Originally posted by frazzle


Well, all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional" despite government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

Again, did I miss some posts? I saw no one denying it was "all that bad". Only that the OP possibly overstated the numbers, which tends to be off putting. Anytime something is exaggerated, it leaves room for people to deny (and rightfully so because the numbers are just wrong). No one denies these action were atrocious, hence the atrocity. Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, no matter the numbers so there is no need to exaggerate. I will refer to what I said in my first post. We detract from these atrocities by trying to compare them. It has become a contest. Who is the most atrocious? Who can we assign the most blame?

This holiday coped after massacre implemented by white Puritans (Puritans - Hidden Jews is English, celebrating Saturday) in the village near present-day town of Groton, in the state of Masachussets. On this day in 1637, the English Puritans - the first time they were able to cut out all the 700 Indians Peko, and their wives and children burnt in a barn. White surrounded at dawn and took all sleeping. Governor "Bay Colony" on the next day declared this day as a holiday - "Happy Thanksgiving"

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by frazzle


Well, all that's true enough, we weren't there, but there are any number of posts denying it was "all that bad" or that it was "intentional" despite government admissions that it was, in fact, intentional.

Again, did I miss some posts? I saw no one denying it was "all that bad". Only that the OP possibly overstated the numbers, which tends to be off putting. Anytime something is exaggerated, it leaves room for people to deny (and rightfully so because the numbers are just wrong). No one denies these action were atrocious, hence the atrocity. Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, no matter the numbers so there is no need to exaggerate. I will refer to what I said in my first post. We detract from these atrocities by trying to compare them. It has become a contest. Who is the most atrocious? Who can we assign the most blame?

I agree with you up to a point. Wiki is not my preferred source for anything as its easily used to exploit and distort ideas and facts, especially when the facts (numbers of dead, for instance) cannot be 100% qualified as fact.

As far as the Indian wars are concerned, it was what it was and downplaying what it was by comparing it with other atrocities is a problem, you're right about that, I think its called a distraction and misdirection.

The words "not all that bad" were mine, granted, but that intent seems clear in many of the words written in this thread. That's just my reading of the words and I could be wrong about the intentions. If so, mea culpa.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity


My concerns are born out of knowing how history is used to poison people's minds and justify many future abuses. You act as if American's have never discussed the past wrongs. In this very thread people have stated how sorry they were those things happened, but who exactly in America is responsible for it? Is it those whose decedents all came over with Columbus? Is it the English, French, and Spanish? Is it those who had the majority of power hundreds of years ago? I cannot understand what it is we are supposed to do. This to me is nothing more than trying to make people feel badly about a history they did not commit and to walk around saying mea culpa all the time. What exactly is your remedy since apologies and admission of what happened is not good enough apparently? Is anyone asking the "natives" to apologize for their genocidal wars or is that only for the British and such?

Past wrongs? How about current wrongs. For the Lakota ~ who are every bit as much American as you, and who are living on land that was "given" to them by the federal government to "make up for" past atrocities, all the while being held under strict government control.

(3) Poverty

Annual median income is $2,600 – $3,500. Poverty affects 97% of Lakotans. Many families can’t afford essentials most people take for granted. In winter, many use ovens for heat. Simple luxuries are unheard of. Life is hard, merciless, punishing, and unrelenting.

(4) Unemployment

It’s 80% or higher. Government corruption, cronyism, and indifference destroy normal living opportunities.

(5) Housing

In winter, elderly people die from hypothermia. They freeze to death for lack of heat. One-third of homes lack clean water and sewage. About 40% have no electricity. About 60% of families have no telephone.

Another 60% of homes are infected with potentially fatal black molds. On average, 17 people reside in each household. Many have two to three rooms. Some homes built for six to eight people have up to 30 in them.

www.veteranstoday.com...

Do you agree that any American citizen should live in these conditions TODAY? Read the whole article for pete's sake, this isn't about feeling a little bit sorry for past atrocities, its about right now.

And if you're thinking about suggesting that they should just leave home for greener pastures like the ones you're living on, that's just another one of those "indian giver" stories that aren't gifts to anyone but the takers. Who would reap the benefits if they just left their homes?

Well I guess there is at least one thing we CAN agree on, frazzle. I think what's currently being done is... well put plainly what's currently being done isn't enough. The Federal government has a responsibility to these people. I don't think anyone in this thread denied what was done in the past was bad, people are just denying personal responsibility for it, and rightfully so. But the federal government absolutely has a responsibility to look after the welfare of this country's natives. But, once again, the american people have no power over the government. The system is broken and all Americans are getting screwed over.

This whole debacle could have been avoided by not trying to paint American's as being the worst criminals of genocide in world history. But, I think that the OP does think that of Americans. Wiki is shunned a lot, but you can read through it and do your own checks on the facts. Here is one set of data:

en.wikipedia.org...

1 Alternative meanings of genocide
2 Timeline of genocides
2.1 Before 1490
2.2 1490 to 1914
2.2.1 Americas
2.2.1.1 Argentina
2.2.1.2 Haiti
2.2.1.3 Mexico
2.2.1.4 Peru
2.2.1.5 United States of America
2.2.2 Antipodes
2.2.2.1 Australia
2.2.2.2 New Zealand
2.2.3 France
2.2.4 Zulu Kingdom
2.2.5 Congo Free State
2.2.6 German South-West Africa
2.2.7 Ireland
2.2.7.1 War of the Three Kingdoms
2.2.7.2 Great Irish Famine
2.2.8 Philippines
2.2.9 Qing empire
2.2.10 Russian Empire
2.3 1915 to 1950
2.3.1 Ottoman Empire/Turkey
2.3.1.1 Armenian
2.3.1.2 Assyrian
2.3.1.3 Greek
2.3.1.4 Dersim Kurds
2.3.2 Soviet Union
2.3.2.1 Decossackization
2.3.2.2 Holodomor
2.3.2.3 Poles, 1937–38
2.3.2.4 Deportation of Chechen people
2.3.2.5 Deportations of Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians
2.3.3 Japan
2.3.4 Nazi Germany and Nazi-occupied Europe
2.3.4.1 Independent State of Croatia
2.3.4.2 Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia
2.3.5 Flight and expulsion of Germans during and after World War II
2.3.6 Dominican Republic
2.3.7 Republic of China and Tibet
2.4 1951 to 2000
2.4.1 Australia 1900–1969
2.4.2 Zanzibar
2.4.3 Guatemala 1966–1996
2.4.4 Pakistan (Bangladesh War of 1971)
2.4.5 Burundi 1972 and 1993
2.4.6 North Korea
2.4.7 Equatorial Guinea
2.4.8 East Timor under Indonesian occupation
2.4.9 Laos
2.4.10 Dirty War in Argentina
2.4.11 Sabra-Shatila, Lebanon
2.4.12 Ethiopia
2.4.13 Iraqi Kurds
2.4.14 Tibet
2.4.15 Brazil
2.4.16 Democratic Republic of Congo
2.4.17 West New Guinea/West Papua
2.4.18 Hutu genocide in DR Congo
2.4.19 Somalia
2.4.20 Sri Lanka
3 International prosecution of genocide
3.1 Ad hoc tribunals
3.1.1 Bosnia and Herzegovina
3.1.2 Rwanda
3.1.3 Cambodia
3.2 International Criminal Court
3.2.1 Darfur, Sudan


Now, count me an uniformed and gullible if you want, but it looks like acts of genocide cover the globe and some might argue other accounts in other countries trump what happened in America or by Americans and by extension colonists. So, is one more terrible than another? I am sure those killed would beg to differ.

I will also add not as an excuse but the better weapons we build the more we can kill. I am positive more people have been killed by automobiles than were ever killed by horse and buggy. If there was some madman riding about mowing people down, I bet they don't say, "Wow, thank god he didn't use a wheel barrow!"

reply to post by mymymy


Nice one,
but....you avoided EVERY question I asked and refuse to be held accountable for your wild assumptions.
I don't blame you. You really put yourself out there and said a lot of things which made no sense.
No one TOLD you to do anything.
Care to address those points?

reply to post by James1982

Well I guess there is at least one thing we CAN agree on, frazzle. I think what's currently being done is... well put plainly what's currently being done isn't enough. The Federal government has a responsibility to these people. I don't think anyone in this thread denied what was done in the past was bad, people are just denying personal responsibility for it, and rightfully so. But the federal government absolutely has a responsibility to look after the welfare of this country's natives. But, once again, the american people have no power over the government. The system is broken and all Americans are getting screwed over.

Whew, progress!!!

The reason people can justifiably feel no responsibility for what happened back in the day is because they/we were never informed of the truth of what was being done or had been done, either to the American Indians or even to ourselves. That's exactly how we ended up with this broken system. NO ONE TOLD US. And that didn't happen by accident, the powers that be all through history have deliberately lied to the people through our government approved schooling and by everything media has been allowed/ordered/coerced to tell us. And that goes for our parents and grandparents no matter how many greats you wish to add.

We have access to truth, many choose not to know it. We have plenty of power, we have no will to exert it.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
I've already replied and made my peace, but I'd also like to add that these America is evil! threads are based on ignorance, hate, and to finally put a term I created to use, a classic case of the Secular Blame Reaction Effect.

A psychological disposition, very basic and almost primal, in which someone blames most or all problems on a particular sect of group of people (religions, races, genders, cultures, countries, etc).

Something many ATSers seem to be suffering from nowadays.

And many people in general.

Basically, its a fashion statement, and unfortunately, its fashionable to hate Americans nowadays. So, people like the OP jump on the bandwagon, spread hateful disinformation, and sit back as people argue and debate over it almost as though its something worth talking about. Its a plea for attention.

And, like the attention seeking OP wanted, this thread is blowing up.

Pathetic.

FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO LIBYA:

A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

academic.evergreen.edu...

The list is too long to copy. Read it and weep.

See my original post, and the video breaking down the statistics of international democide throughout recent history. ALL governments have slaughtered millions of innocent people at some point or another.

America barely made a dent.

reply to post by defcon5


I really don't want to derail this thread, or help contribute to it going round in circles......but in an effort for me to understand people's reasoning I'm going to repeat a question I asked earlier in the thread which no-one has attempted to answer.
At what point did the colonists stop being colonists and become Americans because it's largely those self-same colonists who are being labelled 'European' who fought against Britain for American independence?

Sure many nations and people's were guilty parties to the mistreatment of Native Americans.
No one nation or people.
And disease was probably the single biggest cause of death, but there was no concerted effort to conduct some sort of biological warfare against them.

And it's important to understand and acknowledge their mistreatment, but at least people are beginning to realise that the really important issue is what can be done now?

No one person can do anything by themselves, but it's acts and deeds that count.

I know it's a cliché and a bit of a throw away statement, but people must strive to be the change they want to see.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
There were 50 million Natives living in what is now US territory. We decimated them. Ruthlessly. Without concern for their families, their cultures, their human rights. Now there are less than 3 million. Lets do the math, 50 minus 3 equals 47. Millions that is.
en.wikipedia.org...

We didn't even respect them enough to call them what they are, Americans. We called them "Indians" when the slaugther was going on, maybe because "Indians" means that this is like from another planet, rather than human. We had known for centuries that they were not from India. In the same way as NAZI Germany de-humanized the Jews, Americans de-humanized the Natives.

The NAZI's, Stalin and Mao each killed "only" about 20 million (excluding those who died from starvation caused by Mao's polcies). However, in each of the three cases, it was only one tyrannical regime, essentially one person.

Here in the US, whole-sale slaughter of Native people went on for more than a century, incuding about 20 Presidents' administrations. And we, today, celebrate those Presidents!

Once we had killed most of them, we shoved the rest into prisons, that we call "reservations".

As an American I am not happy to write this. But I do because it is the truth.

Yet, despite the staggering number, America gets a pass. It is glossed over, it had to be done. It wasn't out of hatred. Settlers were forced, they had no choice but to "defend" themselves. Did the Natives need to be killed for the betterment of the world?

Americans committed the worst genocide in world history and to this day, not only are we not accepting the blame for it, we are not even accused of it commonly. For some reason, everybody else in the world feels the same way, it is okay for 20 of our Presidents to collectively committ the worst genocide in human history. It is okay that we cut off their scalp and be rewarded for it.

Astounding how stupid the whole world is collectively. We are smart individually but like a Zombie collectively. Can anybody explain this?

I'm glad to see that you've renounced your citizenship, donated all of your ill-gotten gains to the native Americans and made arrangements to move back to Europe! Because if you hadn't - well, that would make you just a belly-aching hypocrite!

reply to post by covertpanther

Your ignorance is unbelivable - well it would be if you werent an American, by being one, your ignorance is expected.

That's right, because Americans are evil. If you are from a certain sect of people, you are less intelligent, and your argument is of lesser value.

Thank you for showing me what kind of intelligence level you're working on.

This is yet another example of someone jumping on the "Its cool to hate America" bandwagon.

Much like children in elementary school who gang up on a single child and bully him, just because he happens to be a little different.

I find it ironic that you call anyone ignorant, yet you use simple nationality to determine intelligence.

I agree with the post you quoted.

I don't agree, however, that Jews rule the world and Americans are evil.

Step up to the plate of cognitive thought before you go calling others ignorant.

This advice from an American, right here, representin'.

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by XxNightAngelusxX
I've already replied and made my peace, but I'd also like to add that these America is evil! threads are based on ignorance, hate, and to finally put a term I created to use, a classic case of the Secular Blame Reaction Effect.

A psychological disposition, very basic and almost primal, in which someone blames most or all problems on a particular sect of group of people (religions, races, genders, cultures, countries, etc).

Something many ATSers seem to be suffering from nowadays.

And many people in general.

Basically, its a fashion statement, and unfortunately, its fashionable to hate Americans nowadays. So, people like the OP jump on the bandwagon, spread hateful disinformation, and sit back as people argue and debate over it almost as though its something worth talking about. Its a plea for attention.

And, like the attention seeking OP wanted, this thread is blowing up.

Pathetic.

FROM WOUNDED KNEE TO LIBYA:

A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS

academic.evergreen.edu...

The list is too long to copy. Read it and weep.

America barely made a dent.

That makes it all hunky-dory then?