Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by James1982

 

Before Europeans came to the Americas there were tribes and civilizations that went to war with each other, stealing land, taking slaves, etc etc. These were ALL Native Americans of North America and South America doing this.They raped, killed, and pillaged EACH OTHER.

Source please. And since no European was here to record these amazing events, please make it an American Indian source, preferably someone who was here at the time and witnessed all this gratuitous raping and pillaging and killing.

I propose we change the name of the country to the United States of Make Believe.

(Facepalm)


Ever taken a gander at the history of the ancient pueblo peoples and many of their decline? Its largely agreed this was due to an ethnic cleansing of the region due to warring tribes over stressing their land and needing to compete for resources

You know archaeology can tell us this right ?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by James1982

 

Before Europeans came to the Americas there were tribes and civilizations that went to war with each other, stealing land, taking slaves, etc etc. These were ALL Native Americans of North America and South America doing this.They raped, killed, and pillaged EACH OTHER.

I don't understand the relevance of you singing out Europeans treatment of the natives. What is it you are trying to say? Are you just going to make threads on EVERY single battle and population change throughout human history as part of a "History of violence" series of threads you are writing for ATS?

An analogy I can think of is, two kids fighting with each other. Nothing particularly wrong with that. Two adults fighting with each other a fair fight, okay. One adult goes to a kid and the fight ends in the kid dieing, something is wrong. Millions of times over, very wrong.

Your second question, Genocide seem to me to be classified correctly under "Social Issues". This is not about a 'single battle'. If you don't get the relevance by page 20, I'm sorry. I don't get the point of your question either.

So your saying native Americans are like kids compared to Europeans? And that's not slightly offensive to native Americans at all? LOL! I wish you guys knew how your came off.

If you are trying to say that because Europeans were more powerful they should have been "fair" and left the natives alone, that's just more silly talk. When in human history has a stronger people ever said "yeah, we could take them over and take their land, but we are just so powerful it wouldn't be fair"

You are holding Europeans to a high standard that you don't hold ANYBODY else to. No peoples or race that has ever existed on this planet is OK by your standards. These are HUMAN problems and issues, not European ones. Humans are screwed up, animals are screwed up, life is screwed up. What's funny is in nature the more intelligent an animal, the more sadistic is is. Dolphins are incredibly intelligent, and also indulge in gang rape of non-dolphin species, torturing and killing other baby sea creatures for fun, that type of thing. Apes do some sick stuff too.

When you say this:

"Your second question, Genocide seem to me to be classified correctly under "Social Issues". This is not about a 'single battle'. If you don't get the relevance by page 20, I'm sorry. I don't get the point of your question either."

What are you even talking about? I know it's not about a single battle. Are you serious? I was sarcastically asking you if you were going to write a long series of threads on ATS detailing every sort of atrocity that has ever happened in the human species history, because otherwise you are unfairly singling out Europeans for what they have done. If you are so interested in exposing history then why not expose the history of all cultures and races instead of coming down on Europeans. I don't know how you didn't understand that.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by James1982

 

The second you take ownership of something is the second you open yourself up to getting it stolen.

They were as intimate with the land as we are with our husbands and wives. They relied on the land for food, shelter, and all forms of survival. Everything they needed, they got from the land. The land was their god. And you think it's unreasonable that they look upon that land and call it their own? They had lived hundreds of years on that soil, their parents and grandparents and children and grandchildren were born and died on that soil...they gave their sweat, their blood, their tears to that land, and the land gave back to them in almost every way they asked.

They had far more right to that land, far more reason to appreciate it and mourn its loss, than the white men who came to take it because they didn't respect the people who were already standing on it. The white men wanted the land, but the Native Americans needed it. The white men kicked in their doors and commandeered their homes, destroyed their resources and disrespected their families. They killed and cursed, raped and pillaged. The first white men on American soil, the pioneers of the world that would eventually become the United States, didn't earn the American land. They stole it. They stole it the same way the outlaws stole the caravans of supplies on the dusty old trails in the west.

And the Native Americans remember that.

edit on 3-8-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Who is "they"?

You do know that native americans were not one big culture and civilization? That there were (and still are) tons and tons of different cultures, beliefs, customs, genetic makeup, etc? Your notion of Native Americans is a romantic hollywood one, not one based in reality.

And no, I don't think it's unreasonable that the natives would love the land and feel it belongs to them. It did. They owned that land. And they lost it. Just like has happened over and over and over again in history by every single race on the planet.

What do you call "earning" land?

Because every human race and culture throughout history has defined "earning" land as being able to take it and defend it. That's how you own land. You take it and defend it. You either take it from the wild animals, you take it from the harshness of the environment, or you take it from other people. This is nothing new, this existed before Europeans even existed as a race, and will continue on for the foreseeable future.

Hell this isn't even a human issue, it's a life issue. Other animals own land and territory. They steal land and territory from other competing members of their species. They kill each other and other species in order to maintain and defend this land and territory. I'm not condoning it, simply bringing some reality into the conversation that seems to be lacking.

Originally posted by FidelityMusic
Correction, the Europeans committed the worst genocide in world history. I don't know where you get calling the Europeans "Americans," or even confusing them.

I have tried pointing out the same thing in a thread titled Are Native Americans Considered Foreign in America?

There are graphs and statistics in the thread for those who want to look further into this phenomenon that is occurring in America.

Based on a IAT study I participated in that is nationwide

This test measures the association between the social group 'Native American' and the attribute 'American'. Inherent in the name of the group itself lies the information that Native Americans are the original inhabitants of the continent of North America. The history of the group in the United States is unique in that a native population has rarely experienced its fate in modern history. In testing this association we are prepared for the ironic possibility that Native Americans may not be as strongly associated with their own land as are the European-ancestry groups who displaced Native Americans from much of their original territory.

To those who said what happened was not genocide due to the disease that spread, I say shame on you for faulty logic.

Who brought the diseases to the Americas?

You know “denial” is more than a river in Africa

What confuses me further was that after America was settled it would not be much longer till those same European Immigrants would treat their own fellow Europeans like trash as they latter arrived off the boats…… Try to justify that!

It makes no sense

Originally posted by paganini

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by James1982

 

Before Europeans came to the Americas there were tribes and civilizations that went to war with each other, stealing land, taking slaves, etc etc. These were ALL Native Americans of North America and South America doing this.They raped, killed, and pillaged EACH OTHER.

Source please. And since no European was here to record these amazing events, please make it an American Indian source, preferably someone who was here at the time and witnessed all this gratuitous raping and pillaging and killing.

I propose we change the name of the country to the United States of Make Believe.

(Facepalm)


Ever taken a gander at the history of the ancient pueblo peoples and many of their decline? Its largely agreed this was due to an ethnic cleansing of the region due to warring tribes over stressing their land and needing to compete for resources

You know archaeology can tell us this right ?

That sounds made up. Native Americans were god's chosen perfect people and never did anything bad like that. They fart rainbows, piss sunshine, and never even poop.

Originally posted by James1982

 

spirited makes an excellent point. You are vilifying Europeans for simply conducting themselves as all human races have conducted themselves throughout time.

At first glance it may seem that he makes an excellent point. And I expressly did not condemn his suggestion. Further, it is worth of examination, I agree (but not in this thread).

But I do not believe Europeans (who then became Americans) simply conducted themselves as all humans have (I left out the 'race' part on purpose).

To commit murder I believe you need
a) to be a certain type of person, or
b) be part of a "collective" that deems it appropriate to murder people.

Otherwise people will be unable to commit such acts.

And what do you mean by villifying? I did not write about them "in an abusively disparaging manner". I stated that commited genocide. Even if you excuse the genocide with "all human races have" done this, it still is genocide.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


What makes you the expert on murder?

Originally posted by James1982

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by James1982

 

Before Europeans came to the Americas there were tribes and civilizations that went to war with each other, stealing land, taking slaves, etc etc. These were ALL Native Americans of North America and South America doing this.They raped, killed, and pillaged EACH OTHER.

Source please. And since no European was here to record these amazing events, please make it an American Indian source, preferably someone who was here at the time and witnessed all this gratuitous raping and pillaging and killing.

I propose we change the name of the country to the United States of Make Believe.

Source? LOL! Really? You need a source to prove that tribes in the Americas went to war against each other?

SERIOUSLY?

LOL!

You cannot be for real.

Are you implying Native Americans are genetically superior to the rest of the planet's people that they would be above war, theft, and murder? Really?

This has been taken to a whole new level of ridiculousness now. What's next, you want a source that proves native americans had sex with each other? You want a source to prove Native Americans breathe air and drink water?

Get a grip on yourself man, you look desperate.

Well, I knew you couldn't provide a source for all this bloodthirstiness other than its what you heard from someone who heard it from someone who heard it, so it doesn't matter where it originated, it must be true.

When the white man discovered this country Indians were running it. No taxes no debt, women did all the work. White man thought he could improve on a system like this.

- Cherokee proverb

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman


To commit murder I believe you need
a) to be a certain type of person, or
b) be part of a "collective" that deems it appropriate to murder people.

Otherwise people will be unable to commit such acts.

And what do you mean by villifying? I did not write about them "in an abusively disparaging manner". I stated that commited genocide. Even if you excuse the genocide with "all human races have" done this, it still is genocide.

When you say

a) to be a certain type of person, or
b) be part of a "collective" that deems it appropriate to murder people

A) That type of person is called a "human"
B) That collective is called "The human race"

Since the earliest days of humanity we have been slaughtering and enslaving each other on a massive scale. I think you are being incredibly naive.

As far as vilifying them, maybe that was the wrong word. Singling them out would be more accurate. I have nothing against exposing atrocities of the past, I think everyone should know about them. But that doesn't seem to be the point of this thread, it seems to be to attack Europeans and expect guilt.

Having read the op's bit on the way that the early people of the country tried to eliminate the Native American population, there are a few points that were not mentioned.



To lump all of the decimation of the people who were here before the Europeans into one lump sum, is wrong. The Spanish were doing this alot longer than any of the other European powers. It was the Spanish conquest of latin and South America, that decimated the native peoples there.

But lets go forward and look at America. The thing that is not mentioned is that while the the US expansion and manifest destiny were a primary cause of the decimation of native peoples in North America, but there are other factors. Going back to the 7 years war, it was the first time where it saw that 2 native tribes, negotiated and got the European colonists involved in their warfare. After all the Algonquin and the Mohawk tribes were fighting, did not like each other and in the process sided with the European colonists to try to defeat the other.

Time and time after that, many of the Native Tribes, were trying to make alliances and ultimately get the US involved in their affairs against other tribes, to fight and or push away.

That can not be denied either. And the facts are that many of the Native Tribes do not like each other, back then and even today. It can be seen in the lawsuits and how they treat each other. Do you honestly think that the tribes with casions give wealth to those that do not, no they do not. They still try to cut the other down and/or out of the equation. In short terms Native American Tribes do not like the other tribes. And to this day they still hold each other responsible for the past, seeing revenge against grievences. Having worked with different native americans, and finding out the biggest social faux pas is to refer to them as the wrong tribe. (Liable to get you pimped slapped in a New York Minute.)

But beyond all of the history that has gone on before, the greatest tragedy of all, is not all of the wars, or the broken treaties that have been done, but ultimately, the greatest tragedy of all is the loss of culture and language. Ultimately that is the legacy of the US policies towards the native American tribes in the new world.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

 

And what are you hoping to gain, education wise, by dredging up all these sore spots? What was the lesson in creating this thread?

Everything else can be discussed but American misdeeds are off-limits. This is what I've learned from it. Very few have been willing to honestly address the question.

Originally posted by frazzle

Well, I knew you couldn't provide a source for all this bloodthirstiness other than its what you heard from someone who heard it from someone who heard it, so it doesn't matter where it originated, it must be true.

When the white man discovered this country Indians were running it. No taxes no debt, women did all the work. White man thought he could improve on a system like this.

- Cherokee proverb

Yeah, like most people, I've heard that quote about a hundred times.

I wonder why he was a Cherokee.... I mean, why would there be any different tribes? They were evidently peaceful people that never did anything bad, wouldn't they all be one tribe? Hrmm..

So you are seriously of the opinion that all of the various tribes and cultures of the americas both north and south lived in harmony and peace with each other? That the american continent was John Lennon's wet dream before the white man showed up?

I just want to know if that is SERIOUSLY what you believe. A yes or no answer would be good enough for me.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


dude not for nothing but Americans specially white people get reminded every day of the fkd up things other so called white people did,not for nothin' but as HUMAN beings we have killed and enslaved countless other beings ,get over it learn to live and let go if not the hate will envelop you,that help's no one.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

 

And what are you hoping to gain, education wise, by dredging up all these sore spots? What was the lesson in creating this thread?

Everything else can be discussed but American misdeeds are off-limits. This is what I've learned from it. Very few have been willing to honestly address the question.

In all the circles I'm in misdeeds of the COUNTRY of America are openly and widely known. From what I remember of my education it was taught quite extensively.

And I'm still trying to figure out what "The question" ACTUALLY is? That's what I was saying before, WHAT is the point of this thread? Lets honestly address this question, I'm all for it, but PLEASE ask that question so we can answer it. Because you still have yet to say what the point of this thread is. Ask this question that you so greatly want to honestly address.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


I just don't think the OP, or a few other people in this thread, have an accurate idea of the peoples of this continent before whitey showed up. They are people, just like everyone else. They had their differences and negative aspects just like every other people on this planet.

It's obvious they don't have an accurate view because they keep lumping all native peoples together like I said before. There is NO "they" with the native peoples. They were just as divided as any other place.

Just like how many people have a incorrect view of muslims. They lump all muslims together, not realizing there is HUGE division within islam between the sunni and shia followers.

Originally posted by James1982

 

A) That type of person is called a "human"
B) That collective is called "The human race"

Since the earliest days of humanity we have been slaughtering and enslaving each other on a massive scale. I think you are being incredibly naive.

As far as vilifying them, maybe that was the wrong word. Singling them out would be more accurate. I have nothing against exposing atrocities of the past, I think everyone should know about them. But that doesn't seem to be the point of this thread, it seems to be to attack Europeans and expect guilt.

To commit murder I believe you need
a) to be a certain type of person (we are not talking about monkeys). Not everybody will do that.
b) "collective" is not a race. Soccer fans in the stadium are a collective, members of a party etc.

You have not read any of my posts, I never talked about Europeans but Americans, in particular after 1776, and repeatedly stated that guilt or blame are not the issue.

"Since the earliest days of humanity we have been slaughtering and enslaving each other on a massive scale", sounds like a good excuse for a genocide. I hope you feel happy without any negative feelings.

Originally posted by James1982

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

 

And what are you hoping to gain, education wise, by dredging up all these sore spots? What was the lesson in creating this thread?

Everything else can be discussed but American misdeeds are off-limits. This is what I've learned from it. Very few have been willing to honestly address the question.

In all the circles I'm in misdeeds of the COUNTRY of America are openly and widely known. From what I remember of my education it was taught quite extensively.

And I'm still trying to figure out what "The question" ACTUALLY is? That's what I was saying before, WHAT is the point of this thread? Lets honestly address this question, I'm all for it, but PLEASE ask that question so we can answer it. Because you still have yet to say what the point of this thread is. Ask this question that you so greatly want to honestly address.

This is what I'm interested in. ThinkingHuman, you have already stated that this is not a "blame game", and you have implied that your intentions are educational, nothing else. So what are you trying to teach here? What lesson are you attempting to convey?

ETA:

Astounding how stupid the whole world is collectively. We are smart individually but like a Zombie collectively. Can anybody explain this?

This is the question you want addressed, is it not? Believe it or not, this is human behavior. No, no, sorry, not human. Animal behavior. We try to act all high and mighty, but in the end, we're all just animals ranging in the higher end of known organic intelligence. Which, admittedly, becomes quite the weapon when that intelligence is aimed maliciously and aggressively. But hey, natural selection. Survival of the fittest. It's a powerful mechanism, and quite frankly, no one is interested in dying...especially when they can step on someone else and take the loot for themselves.

This is one of the reasons I laugh at religion - try hard as we might, we cannot deny that we are animals...and animals we shall remain. There is a natural order of behavior which doesn't appeal to our refined tastes, but it is natural...and fighting it will only hinder our comprehension of our own nature.

Originally posted by duncan19

 

dude not for nothing but Americans specially white people get reminded every day of the fkd up things other so called white people did,not for nothin' but as HUMAN beings we have killed and enslaved countless other beings ,get over it learn to live and let go if not the hate will envelop you,that help's no one.

Doesn't seem to me this way here on ATS.

reply to post by frazzle


The Cherokee had a long standing dispute with the Iriquois that pre-dated European settlement.

Cherokee society was overseen by two groups; the 'white' group who were clan elders who looked after spiritual matters and the 'red' group who governed matters relating to war.
War was considered somewhat unclean and warriors returning from war required some sort of purification.
This structure more or less died out well before the 18th Century probably due to a revolt against the influence of the 'white' group.

Now if war was non-existent why did they require a group of people to oversee war related affairs and why did they develop these cleansing rituals if it never happened?

Your claim that warfare never existed prior to contact with Europeans is both naïve and quite at odds with the facts.

There is much to admire about Native American society and culture but to believe that they were free of the failings that have troubled every single human society and culture that has ever been to various degrees simply beggars belief.

My opinion, you did pretty good, the black dude did well too and the Kelly's Hero's guy gave compelling arguments.

As long as man exists he will kill and make war. I can't explain it, I just know it seems the right thing to do. Thats the good and bad in people, you cant have one without the other. War and peace.......... you Can have it both ways oddly enough. If I were a extraterrestrial, I'd avoid this place like the plague, or just flat out exterminate it and come back in a couple hundred years and repopulate it with the desired people or criters.

Humans............ oh yea, bad stuff......