Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by James1982

Ok, so the country "as a whole" isn't absolved of these crimes. Ok.... so what does that mean? Specifically? Does that mean that every single person with American citizenship is guilty? Or do you mean more specifically white Americans are still guilty?

Who is "we" that celebrate Columbus day? I don't know a single person in my entire family, circle of friends, coworkers, or anybody else that celebrates Columbus day. Who's fault is it that Columbus day is a national holiday? Did we have some sort of say in this? I don't remember being asked to vote on whether or not we as a nation were to celebrate Columbus day... yeah... I'm definitely not taking any responsibility for that one.

Nobody alive today had anything to do with slavery, black or white. So what are we going to do to "restore the wrongs" (as you put it, whatever that means....)

You say "we as a nation:" well among the nation are Native Americans and blacks, are you saying native Americans and blacks need to work to "restore the wrongs" of history? No? Then only white people? Why?

In a very real sins of the father's sense you are also a victim of what was done to the Indian peoples because that was only the beginning. What was done to them is being increasingly done to you and every other American whether they descended from the original Indian hunters or immigrated here many years later.

Yes, its hard to see how each lie, each battle, each war, each massacre and each piece of legislation written since the Mayflower landed has led us to the point we are at today, which most people will agree is becoming a not so good place to be, where rights are trampled and people are killed extra-judicially.

It has been said many times that Americans are the most lied to people on the face of the planet and that didn't just happen since Obama was elected, its been going on since the first ship dropped anchor.

So while you and others are saying you weren't here when all the Indian killing was going on and therefore should be held blameless for it, you also weren't here when what we call our own treaty with the government (the Constitution) was written and signed. You weren't asked for your opinion on it and you weren't asked to sign it, but most Americans today consider that piece of paper to be sacred. I am not one of those, but I am still bound by the rules passed under its auspices and so are you, whether or not you like those laws, or whether they meet constitutional muster in any American's opinion.

Unfortunately, because of code words placed in that treaty like "supremacy clause" and "proper and necessary" and "general welfare" etc., etc. every law written since that beginning does pass legal muster. That would include the "Indian Removal Act" and the "Dawes Act". Even the Federal Reserve Act which put a privately owned banking cartel in charge of money creation and circulation passed muster with the SC. And even the "never to be used as identification" Social Security Act is deemed legal, which led to the fact that you can't hook up with cable or even go to see your doctor without brandishing that later to become "yes it really is your" identification number.

I could go on all day talking about how promises made to our ancestors were boldfaced lies. Does that make us guilty of something? No, it makes us as unimportant to today's government as the Indians and slaves of old were to it and you are every much as constrained under the 14th amendment as any rez resident is under the BIA. The difference is, they KNOW they're being constrained.

But the government would NEVER have lied to the Indians. And they would never have lied to you ABOUT the Indians. And they most definitely would never have lied to you about who and what you are in the overall scheme of things to come.

The naivete' of the American people is boundless and timeless.


ETA: Ooooh, I left out the "commerce clause" which is the granddaddy of constitutional constraints and impositions. ANYTHING passes muster under that one.

I could go on all day talking about how promises made to our ancestors were boldfaced lies. Does that make us guilty of something? No, it makes us as unimportant to today's government as the Indians and slaves of old were to it and you are every much as constrained under the 14th amendment as any rez resident is under the BIA. The difference is, they KNOW they're being constrained.

But the government would NEVER have lied to the Indians. And they would never have lied to you ABOUT the Indians. And they most definitely would never have lied to you about who and what you are in the overall scheme of things to come.

The naivete' of the American people is boundless and timeless.

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

Originally posted by Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Did the native Americans have the permission from the first settler to live on his land? No! They just moved in..
You can't compare the land to a purchased car.
Lots of land has been taken by force through out history and will always be taken.

The Natives were the "first settlers", which is why they are called "Natives".

And just because theft and violence is prevalent throughout history, across the world, doesn't make it right. The reason why this theft and genocide is so important to us, is because:

1) It happened here and is part of our history, and helped shape our current conditions today.

2) It was an injustice that wiped out entire (multiple) civilizations, leaving only minimal traces behind, and nothing has been done to heal this atrocity.

3) There is much to learn about and from these peoples and their cultures, which can only be done if we are honest about how our peoples and cultures treated them in the past.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

You really do know how to miss a point.

My point is that this is the country I live in and I care about its people. I also care about what my country does to other people under the guise of "democracy" and "liberty".

And you .... what do you care about?

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

I could go on all day talking about how promises made to our ancestors were boldfaced lies. Does that make us guilty of something? No, it makes us as unimportant to today's government as the Indians and slaves of old were to it and you are every much as constrained under the 14th amendment as any rez resident is under the BIA. The difference is, they KNOW they're being constrained.

But the government would NEVER have lied to the Indians. And they would never have lied to you ABOUT the Indians. And they most definitely would never have lied to you about who and what you are in the overall scheme of things to come.

The naivete' of the American people is boundless and timeless.

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

This folks is what we call A Straw Man Argument.

Is that really what you got from what he wrote?

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

You really do know how to miss a point.

My point is that this is the country I live in and I care about its people. I also care about what my country does to other people under the guise of "democracy" and "liberty".

And you .... what do you care about?

I care about people misrepresenting facts in thread titles, and demonizing millions. I care about a thread that is nothing but blame whitey. I think we are under a very bad deception and it could very well turn and rip us to shreds because people's minds have been so poisoned that by killing us all off because we are the cancer they will be doing God's work.

How about that? Do you want to play a part in that bloodbath by pushing this "America is the worst" crap?

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

You really do know how to miss a point.

My point is that this is the country I live in and I care about its people. I also care about what my country does to other people under the guise of "democracy" and "liberty".

And you .... what do you care about?

I care about people misrepresenting facts in thread titles, and demonizing millions. I care about a thread that is nothing but blame whitey. I think we are under a very bad deception and it could very well turn and rip us to shreds because people's minds have been so poisoned that by killing us all off because we are the cancer they will be doing God's work.

How about that? Do you want to play a part in that bloodbath by pushing this "America is the worst" crap?

This is another straw man argument. The supposed "bloodbath" that you project will take place cannot be blamed on the person stating the facts about an atrocity, but on the people who committed the atrocity and the sympathizers that followed in their wake who tried to 'sweep the dirt under the rug'.

"The truth can never hurt a cause that is just." - Gandhi

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

This folks is what we call A Straw Man Argument.

Is that really what you got from what he wrote?

No, that is not a strawman. Did that post I responded to just completely blame America? And by America the post is about those who settled the country and that is generally accepted as white people. That post seemed to indicate that we are still at it and complicit with our own downfall. People have been blind in every nation to the schemes of evil men and women, mostly men, but behind every evil man there is most likely a real B****.

So, again, what are we supposed to do about this? The OP had a distinctly blame America tone and I think it's disgusting. History is replete with jackwads destroying others who were jackwads who destroyed others. It's called evil and it's called survival at times.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy


This is another straw man argument. The supposed "bloodbath" that you project will take place cannot be blamed on the person stating the facts about an atrocity, but on the people who committed the atrocity and the sympathizers that followed in their wake who tried to 'sweep the dirt under the rug'.

"The truth can never hurt a cause that is just." - Gandhi

No, it's called an argument and it's in response to your argument which we call a debate. I am completely on subject. Why don't you respond to my point as that is what one does in a debate.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

You really do know how to miss a point.

My point is that this is the country I live in and I care about its people. I also care about what my country does to other people under the guise of "democracy" and "liberty".

And you .... what do you care about?

I care about people misrepresenting facts in thread titles, and demonizing millions. I care about a thread that is nothing but blame whitey. I think we are under a very bad deception and it could very well turn and rip us to shreds because people's minds have been so poisoned that by killing us all off because we are the cancer they will be doing God's work.

How about that? Do you want to play a part in that bloodbath by pushing this "America is the worst" crap?

And this, folks, is how headline news has scrambled the brains of millions of Americans who can't get past the headline or be bothered to read the content of the stories and then do their own due diligence to determine if there's any truth to the stories.

The vast majority of the US populace has morphed into the cartoon network, writ large.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

So, your point is that because really bad people are doing really bad things and those really bad people are only Americans that yes, America is the worst country in the world?

This folks is what we call A Straw Man Argument.

Is that really what you got from what he wrote?

No, that is not a strawman. Did that post I responded to just completely blame America? And by America the post is about those who settled the country and that is generally accepted as white people. That post seemed to indicate that we are still at it and complicit with our own downfall. People have been blind in every nation to the schemes of evil men and women, mostly men, but behind every evil man there is most likely a real B****.

So, again, what are we supposed to do about this? The OP had a distinctly blame America tone and I think it's disgusting. History is replete with jackwads destroying others who were jackwads who destroyed others. It's called evil and it's called survival at times.

edit on 4-8-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

I think you are just projecting your own fears onto other people. I did not hear a "blame America or Whitey for every ill in the world" tone, I heard a "we must accept the facts as they are" tone. What are we supposed to do about this? We should start by admitting the facts, then we should work towards healing relations. That is how all acts of forgiveness works, is it not?

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy


I think you are just projecting your own fears onto other people. I did not hear a "blame America or Whitey for every ill in the world" tone, I heard a "we must accept the facts as they are" tone. What are we supposed to do about this? We should start by admitting the facts, then we should work towards healing relations. That is how all acts of forgiveness works, is it not?

My concerns are born out of knowing how history is used to poison people's minds and justify many future abuses. You act as if American's have never discussed the past wrongs. In this very thread people have stated how sorry they were those things happened, but who exactly in America is responsible for it? Is it those whose decedents all came over with Columbus? Is it the English, French, and Spanish? Is it those who had the majority of power hundreds of years ago? I cannot understand what it is we are supposed to do. This to me is nothing more than trying to make people feel badly about a history they did not commit and to walk around saying mea culpa all the time. What exactly is your remedy since apologies and admission of what happened is not good enough apparently? Is anyone asking the "natives" to apologize for their genocidal wars or is that only for the British and such?

Maybe I should make a thread that American men are the worst rapists in the world. Maybe I should make a thread that American woman are the biggest B****** in the world. Then I can list all their atrocities and how many lives they have ruined and how all American men need to feel bad and how all American women need to feel bad because well..... because

Originally posted by alldaylong

If your Grandfather stole a car in 1935, it was then passed onto your father, and he then passed it onto you and you are driving around in it still, then it still makes it a stolen vehicle. Land was stolen from The Native Americans and non-Native Americans still live on and use it today.
It doesn't matter when it was stolen, the fact is it was still gained by foul means.

Here is a case that can be used as an example:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Okay, sign over your property to me if that's the way you feel. Even if you bought it, you bought stolen land and you knew that. Whether a war is right or wrong, the winner 'takes the spoils'. Is it right? No, but it isn't your fault. You weren't there. Exactly how do you propose we figure out who owned what when? Gonna be a lot of misplaced people until you figure that one out.

You know what is really bothering me is that this thread has that feeling of no matter what you say or do, you are going to have your nose rubbed in old poop. Let's step away from the native issue while using this example of what is bothering me.

Have you ever been in a relationship and you did something wrong? You work it out and make up, and then anytime something happens your loving and supposedly forgiving partner brings up what you did for the umpteenth time?! Eventually you lose that contrite spirit because frankly at this point you are being abused over and over for something you repented of. Eventually that poisons the relationship and most separate.

Those who blame America and you need to own up for your past is exactly like that situation. We cannot change our past and quite frankly WE DID NOT DO IT! When I lived in Germany, they had to have dedicated TV time about the bad actions of Germans during the Holocaust. It was a daily barrage of blame blame blame, own it own own it, and these people were not for the most part even alive when it happened! It was not discussed much, but you could feel the anger building. Just what should the German people today do about Hitler? Do tell! Healing cannot happen under this sort of system, and per usual, and this blame will not let us build a bridge of love and unity forgiving our past, bury the hatchet as they say, and work towards a loving relationship NOW.

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by alldaylong

If your Grandfather stole a car in 1935, it was then passed onto your father, and he then passed it onto you and you are driving around in it still, then it still makes it a stolen vehicle. Land was stolen from The Native Americans and non-Native Americans still live on and use it today.
It doesn't matter when it was stolen, the fact is it was still gained by foul means.

Here is a case that can be used as an example:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Whether a war is right or wrong, the winner 'takes the spoils'.

Would you please educate me and give the date that the US Government declared "War" against the Native American Tribes?

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by alldaylong

If your Grandfather stole a car in 1935, it was then passed onto your father, and he then passed it onto you and you are driving around in it still, then it still makes it a stolen vehicle. Land was stolen from The Native Americans and non-Native Americans still live on and use it today.
It doesn't matter when it was stolen, the fact is it was still gained by foul means.

Here is a case that can be used as an example:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Whether a war is right or wrong, the winner 'takes the spoils'.

Would you please educate me and give the date that the US Government declared "War" against the Native American Tribes?

So, because a declaration was or was not officially made it was not plan to get rid of them? So, over a million dead Iraqis were not killed in a war right? I mean Congress did not declare war on them. Vietnam was not a war because it was not declared a war, right? This is fallacious and I know you can do better. The history against them is pretty clear. They were not treated fairly. Treaties were broken, and many died. I am sure they don't really give a damn what we called it.

Originally posted by alldaylong

Would you please educate me and give the date that the US Government declared "War" against the Native American Tribes?

Perhaps I used the term 'war' too loosely. My definition of war is when large groups of people are killed, be it by civilians or government troops. We can be all lawyerly and play word games if you wish. (the definition of is lol). Perhaps it was more of a 'police action'?

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by alldaylong

If your Grandfather stole a car in 1935, it was then passed onto your father, and he then passed it onto you and you are driving around in it still, then it still makes it a stolen vehicle. Land was stolen from The Native Americans and non-Native Americans still live on and use it today.
It doesn't matter when it was stolen, the fact is it was still gained by foul means.

Here is a case that can be used as an example:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Whether a war is right or wrong, the winner 'takes the spoils'.

Would you please educate me and give the date that the US Government declared "War" against the Native American Tribes?

So, because a declaration was or was not officially made it was not plan to get rid of them? So, over a million dead Iraqis were not killed in a war right? I mean Congress did not declare war on them. Vietnam was not a war because it was not declared a war, right? This is fallacious and I know you can do better. The history against them is pretty clear. They were not treated fairly. Treaties were broken, and many died. I am sure they don't really give a damn what we called it.

edit on 4-8-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

The US Congress "Authorized" war against both Vietnam and Iraq
For your further education:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity


My concerns are born out of knowing how history is used to poison people's minds and justify many future abuses. You act as if American's have never discussed the past wrongs. In this very thread people have stated how sorry they were those things happened, but who exactly in America is responsible for it? Is it those whose decedents all came over with Columbus? Is it the English, French, and Spanish? Is it those who had the majority of power hundreds of years ago? I cannot understand what it is we are supposed to do. This to me is nothing more than trying to make people feel badly about a history they did not commit and to walk around saying mea culpa all the time. What exactly is your remedy since apologies and admission of what happened is not good enough apparently? Is anyone asking the "natives" to apologize for their genocidal wars or is that only for the British and such?

Past wrongs? How about current wrongs. For the Lakota ~ who are every bit as much American as you, and who are living on land that was "given" to them by the federal government to "make up for" past atrocities, all the while being held under strict government control.

(3) Poverty

Annual median income is $2,600 – $3,500. Poverty affects 97% of Lakotans. Many families can’t afford essentials most people take for granted. In winter, many use ovens for heat. Simple luxuries are unheard of. Life is hard, merciless, punishing, and unrelenting.

(4) Unemployment

It’s 80% or higher. Government corruption, cronyism, and indifference destroy normal living opportunities.

(5) Housing

In winter, elderly people die from hypothermia. They freeze to death for lack of heat. One-third of homes lack clean water and sewage. About 40% have no electricity. About 60% of families have no telephone.

Another 60% of homes are infected with potentially fatal black molds. On average, 17 people reside in each household. Many have two to three rooms. Some homes built for six to eight people have up to 30 in them.

www.veteranstoday.com...

Do you agree that any American citizen should live in these conditions TODAY? Read the whole article for pete's sake, this isn't about feeling a little bit sorry for past atrocities, its about right now.

And if you're thinking about suggesting that they should just leave home for greener pastures like the ones you're living on, that's just another one of those "indian giver" stories that aren't gifts to anyone but the takers. Who would reap the benefits if they just left their homes?

reply to post by frazzle

Past wrongs? How about current wrongs.

Hallelujah.

This thread is going round in circles and achieving absolutely nothing.
It's nothing but playing the 'blame game'.

Whilst it's important to have an understanding of why and how things happened surely people's time would be better spent trying to actually sort out the mess and help construct positive policies that will enable Native Americans to take control of their own lives and develop as they see fit.

This thread is 25+ pages of finger pointing and passing the buck.

What needs to be done in the here and now?