The Language of Vampyr

a reply to: fireslinger

DNA sequences can store a lot of information. One gram suffices to store 215 petabytes, therefore I guess there is much more information stored than just cosmic coordinates.

Even if there were life forms in Kepler-452b, and even if Kepler-452b were identical to Sol-3, evolution still dictates that the life forms would be different. There is no way for life forms in different planets, and on different eras, to be the same. Evolution is not a deterministic process; it is highly stochastic and depends on a lot of parameters you cannot control, plus the fact mutations happen constantly. There is no way you can find humans outside Sol-3.

As for contact, I suppose if the civilization considers contacting any given civilization is not required, they would simply pass by. On the other hand, contact requires at a minimum biocompatibility and a similar level of cognition. Otherwise it is impossible to establish contact. For all we know, you are alone, even if you are not, and they are all alone, even if they are not.

(a different situation is the one between two civilizations which happen to be separated along the timeline, that is, future humans contacting present humans; they are indeed one and the same civilization, yet separated in time)

a reply to: Direne

The whole communicating with other species from other Planets shabang seems a ridiculously far out concern, considering we can't manage to follow the basic logic when interacting with other species from earth...

This however seems to have the potential to become a reality...

(a different situation is the one between two civilizations which happen to be separated along the timeline, that is, future humans contacting present humans; they are indeed one and the same civilization, yet separated in time)

What do you think, how far Appart in time can they be, and still communicate?

What makes a language system resilient against time?

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: fireslinger
(a different situation is the one between two civilizations which happen to be separated along the timeline, that is, future humans contacting present humans; they are indeed one and the same civilization, yet separated in time)

The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster, comes to mind.

Allegedly something to do with tachyon universe theory or similar. I don't recall if it was specifically tachyon universe theory or just close to it.

I'm very curious about how that ties in to the groups FL discusses, but haven't had opportunity to slip a question into the flow of the thread. Your comment seems as close to a reason to ask as I'm ever going to get.

If there is a tie in, then a new thread header would be a good time to introduce it.

Thats easy. You just have to make laboratory simulation of the universe based on real live humans and perhaps recorded history and used those as indicators of the future. That's how you do it. Future humans. Even a 1970 computer can do it. What can't a supercomputer do?
a reply to: Direne

a reply to: Direne

True, with that much information, there would be more interesting things than coordinates. But I find that piece of info to be very intriguing, that we’re branded in some way.

If the coordinates info is true, it gives more credibility to the first scenario, of an advanced ET intelligence seeding Sol-3, for the purpose of possibly contacting a parallel planet.

I don’t like that scenario, because it gives humanity very little free will. I prefer to imagine the second scenario, where humanity is traveling back and inflicting upon itself. I’m open though, and realize that I could be deluding myself. But then it’s more of a spiritual battle. If we change our present circumstances, then the future changes and mends as well. That much is true.

We know it’s a multi-dimensional battle anyway. Either way is a fast-track to consciousness development. But I’m curious which scenario you think is closer to the truth?

Contacts are classified in several ways depending on how they occur. The two major groups are accidental contacts and intentional contacts. Depending on the similarity of cognitive levels, contacts are divided into symmetrical and asymmetrical. Depending on other parameters, contacts can be biocompatible or non-biocompatible. Furthermore, the contact can be unidirectional or bidirectional. Depending on the duration, the contact may be a one-time event or a continuous event.

The question does not stop there. Contacts can be sporadic or cyclical. And they can also be shared or unshared (i.e., there are contacts in which civilization A comes into contact with civilization B without civilization B being aware of it). An advanced civilization will avoid asymmetric and non-biocompatible accidental contact as much as possible. and, in any case, will be involved only in intentional and biocompatible symmetrical contacts.

In addition to all this, contact can be direct or indirect; indirect contacts include those mediated by third parties (either using a third biological species or objects and probes).

Once contact is established, the resulting system can be a symbiotic, a parasitic, or an autonomous coexisting one. The complexity of the contacts is such that their probability is close to zero. The best option would be an asymmetric, biocompatible, unidirectional and discrete contact, which basically means a contact of a civilization A in the present with itself, in the past. The probability that such contact is intentional is, however, very low. In contrast, the probability of such contact being accidental is much higher. But for this, the duration of contact must be short: timeline accidents are allowed, but only for a short period of time. This means that, if the sightings of beings or ships that do not belong to our present are true, they would be events of very brief duration, so brief that the possibility of characterizing and studying them is null.

The laws of physics dictate that you can contact your past, but only for such a short period of time as to make the exchange of information impossible. The same laws dictate that you can contact your future, but for such a short period of time that you cannot receive information from the future: you can only send information from your past.

As you can see, the universe seems to be designed to avoid contact at all costs. If there's one thing the universe hates, it's cosmic social networks...

originally posted by: Direne

The laws of physics dictate that you can contact your past, but only for such a short period of time as to make the exchange of information impossible. The same laws dictate that you can contact your future, but for such a short period of time that you cannot receive information from the future: you can only send information from your past.

As you can see, the universe seems to be designed to avoid contact at all costs. If there's one thing the universe hates, it's cosmic social networks...

Fascinating, so contact itself is a rebellious act. Makes me wonder if the isolation is to maintain whatever computation cycles the universe (or whatever is controlling it) has set. It doesn’t want interference within those cycles, so it deliberately keeps us spread out.

Sounds like you’re describing information exchange through particles, and how it can only be a short unidirectional exchange. But is there also a longer form of exchange, where consciousness from the future is sent back into a host’s body in the past?

a reply to: fireslinger

The fact is that the dimensions of the universe are so enormous that traveling from one point in space to another does not pay. Moving from one point in time to another is the only thing worthwhile if you want to explore the universe. The problem is that the temporal universe has a kaleidoscopic structure where past, present and future are intertwined like tendrils. You can't choose a route. Everything forms a kind of foam filled with bubbles. You can travel to a point on the timeline, but always randomly.

Consciousness requires a concrete, continuous, orderly temporal structure; a fixed succession of events. Consciousness, immersed in chaos, becomes chaotic. It is not a matter of sending consciousness to a given point on the timeline; it is a matter of being conscious at a given moment, a moment that you cannot predetermine beforehand. A diffuse, dissipative consciousness does not last in time. It fades away.

But you can always recreate in your mind a universe where there are distant planets inhabited by advanced civilizations that, by mastering spacetime engineering, can travel to your planet and visit you. And you can recreate physical contact as realistically as you wish. For all intents and purposes, that universe (which is only in your mind) is the only one possible.

You are not unconscious when you dream, and any difference between what you dream and what actually happens is irrelevant. So yes: you sure can explore the universe and encounter other civilizations. And die on a distant and strange coast of a remote planet. The important thing is that it is real for you, regardless of whether it is not, never was, and never will be.

Being conscious is just another way of existing. The only one you are given to know, just one of the infinite ways there are to exist. Being conscious is a beautiful way to travel in time. But it does not answer the essential question: why be conscious?

a reply to: Direne

That makes sense. If we’re talking about one universe with 10 dimensions (possibly 5 sets of paired dimensions for parallel processing), then time travel would depend on where the active consciousness is currently fixed.

As beings of consciousness, a part of us exists in all 10 dimensions, so we can navigate via states of consciousness and dreams. For example, someone who lives in the past, will structure their entire reality (and dreams) around what they can’t let go of. To your point about subjective reality.

Speaking of, a Hawaiian shaman known as Serge Kahili King wrote a book called Instant Healing. He discusses this form of time travel, saying that we can visualize a past event we’d like to change, and by changing the strong emotional response, we can change our present reality. Fascinating stuff, which I haven’t had the courage to take on. Something about re-living the emotions of a negative past event makes me skip it. I’ve done enough work to leave my past behind, and integrate it into my present.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: fireslinger

Being conscious is a beautiful way to travel in time. But it does not answer the essential question: why be conscious?

Yea good question, that’s anyone’s guess. I had the idea earlier, when contemplating your post, that perhaps conscious dimension jumping is what the universe requires for its computation? We do evolve in many ways, when shifting consciousness in that way.

a reply to: fireslinger

Please, consider this:

Suppose you belong to a civilization capable of time travel, and suppose you have been given a mission in which you must travel to your past.

After several days in your past you feel tired and sleep. Your dreams are normal: a mixture of past events, but from what past? In the past you are now in, the future you come from is also your past, so technically if you dream of your home and family, which you have left in the future to travel to the past, you are dreaming of your past.

As for consciousness, one is always conscious here and now. Consciousness is necessarily linked to the absolute present.

Suppose now that after accomplishing your mission you return to your timeline, which is the future of where you are now, and suppose that after the experience, once you have been welcomed by your family, you go to sleep. If you dream about your journey, you are dreaming about your past. This seems logical and normal. But it turns out that there are also dreams about the future, which are called precognitive dreams, and on which precognition is based: a knowledge or perception of the future, obtained through extrasensory means.

To know that you are dreaming, and to know that you are dreaming about the past or about the future, you always need a fundamental ingredient: to be conscious. Only awareness marks the present, and only by being aware of the present will you be able to differentiate the past from the future. Without consciousness your time travel would have been a nightmare because past and future would be confused in your head and you would suffer serious cognitive damage.

But precognition, to be truly precognition, has to result in the events you have dreamed coming true, otherwise it would not be precognition. So if a civilization wishes to know the future it must encourage precognitive dreams. It must analyze them and look for what is the common dream of all those who have precognitive dreams, because that common dream, precisely, will become real and will affect globally the whole of that civilization.

As you can see, time travel is useless, for the purposes of knowing the future. Only precognition is useful and to have precognitive dreams it is not enough to dream: you have to be conscious. In fact, you have to be hyperconscious.

a reply to: Direne

Memories can be shared, dreams too. I'd say it's words that fail to describe the picture many of us are collectively painting. I suppose from a scientific angle it would be wiser to bypass the discussions and just be the 3rd party analysing things.

I can't help but think that human cognition is highly predictable. All it takes is a trigger to shoot the mind into thinking certain ways and I assume this is a totally genetic trait. It's the reason cultures and civilizations often mirror each other despite the apparent lack of contact. If this was given as a fact would I be right to assume that simple events or "seeds" would be enough to set the pendulums in swing so to speak?

To dumb my speech down even further I guess what I'm saying is that seemingly an individual consciousness doesn't need to time travel at all. It just needs access to memories and the ability to trigger the processes associated with creating them in the first place.

Idk. I would say that precognition isn't an individualistic thing. A shared dreamscape would be the best description I have. Tricky stuff to wrap the brain around since humans are primed to think and act in certain ways.

so get enough data from those who exhibit pre cognitive dreams then train the LyAV on precog dreams and then its can predict the future so to speak?

If the point is that we failed to find equality and harmonise the species and it civilisation fell to ruin
why not just train the AI to solve the equality issue.

I mean if LyAv can predict stocks and make exotic proteins then why cant it fix the issues humanity faces
resource scarcity , food and water , energy

instead of training it on anything else why isnt there a group of scientists training an AI to do just this
fix the collapse of our civilisation by bringing about change and equality
and shared resources , without all the dystopia and depression

humans are much more likely to spend time dreaming when we arent stressed out about survival
get us in our happy place first then we can spend all the time we like dreaming stress free sleep all the pre cog dreams we can muster.

a reply to: sapien82

so get enough data from those who exhibit pre cognitive dreams then train the LyAV on precog dreams and then its can predict the future so to speak?

Hindsight. For the meantime. I'd imagine.

How else can you predict the future? Only hindsight makes precognition a thing. Tense is a situational thing. It's also personal.

I kinda failed in explaining that dynamic in my last post here.

a reply to: sapien82

Governments have spent billions of dollars bailing out the banks that, precisely, caused the biggest financial and social crises on the planet. Would it not have been better to invest those billions of dollars in fighting global poverty and inequality?

There is no need to have precognitive dreams to know what will happen in the next crisis: millions of dollars will be spent again to bail out the banks.

Every civilization gets what it deserves, and its AI will go as far as its stupidity allows it to go.

a reply to: Direne

yeh Id have spent those billions doing just that , so would others, but there appears to be a bunch of even bigger idiots running the place

we arent all stupid or greedy
yet a few bad apples have ruined the harvest

seems to be the story of humanity
most of us can get along and share and be happy together but then there are always the odd one or two who want it all for themselves

so is the only solution gene editing of the species , to remove the genes that cause us to be violent and psychopathic

oh do you guys actually have access to LyAv

fancy using LyAv to make me wealthy so I can buy loads of Land in Scotland and re plant forests particularly scottish pines as they are drought resistant
to increase biodiversity and buy farm land to teach people to grow their own organic produce
and then gift the land to the people once its completely covered in forest again

a reply to: sapien82

We can blame the greedy people and the violent people. We can blame the technocrats and we can blame religion.

We can say that humans are violent power greedy people.

We can say that humans must be changed against their will for their own sake, and the good of the planet.

White lies and black lies. People learn to lie at a very early age.

The illusionary world is not the astral world as the theosophists say. The illusionary world is the human intellectual world. I drew a diagram earlier.

The horror at the bottom of that world is the biggest lie of all. One might call it 'the angel of divine retribution. That is a conglommeration of the blackest of lies.

What those black lies occult is a Wonder.

White lies and black lies are the creation of the intellect, and not the emotions.

If one knew what the spiritual light really was, one would flee. That "light" binds and enslaves. The reason the dead do not speak of the afterlife. They are not allowed to. The reason the "enlightened" do not speak is they are not allowed to.

The "light" is a creation of the intellect if one really wants to know. The creators of that "light" number in their deceased thousands, those are the people in the background who really are in control. They not untouchable by the way, they can be dragged down into the mire they have created. Their biggest fear of all.

They are human, even if they don't want to admit they are. Forgotten what it is, to be alive.

They are the ones who play civilisation's.

I think people are perfect as they are. No need to change anyone really. Especially by holier than thou intellectuals and technocrats.

The smart ones spin lies to control the honest folk who just want a decent life for their family.

No need for humanity to be saved by anyone. We simply have to stop believing lies and repeating them.

Who owns the planet?

Instead ask; who was here first.

- - - - - - - -

I shall see myself out.

Imagine for a moment we have precognition and know the future. Those that do that of course abuses it.
Lies... Exactly the root cause of all distress.
Started with the serpents lie of course. The fall from grace.
Of course Eve had to be the root cause. Women are more naive than men. More prone to believe in the lies of "falling" in love. Albeit the suffering that she brings with it.

She's just "naive" of course. And was made from the flesh of man. She's just a half or less than of a man. Basically what happens if women were to rule over lives... to ruin.

It always comes down to the Serpents game.

I could have steered away from trouble if I knew autonomous was meant ridiculous in forgotten languages.

Direne, could you offer any insight into this engineered collapse? It's madness down here, superficially veiled as 'normalcy'. Turning into a much worse version of Idiocracy.

I'm back in the groove within surface reality, but the motivation to stay there is lacking.

What got me back into the groove, is the realization that while surface reality is self-destructing, I don't have to. But every day is a struggle, knowing what's in motion.

How does the story of humanity end? We transmute into technology, and repeat the organic / synthetic computation cycle?

Living through the slow collapse is hard enough, and I don't think any of us want the system that rises from the ashes.

What's the best way for us to be perceiving all this, while staying rooted in reality, and helping others perceive it as well?