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Originally posted by Akragon
I you believe IF the US pulls out of all Islamic countries and left them to their own issues.... there would be peace in those countries?
Originally posted by wildtimes
If every Westerner pulled out of those strife-ridden war zones today -.... - they'd destroy each other anyway.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7
I you believe IF the US pulls out of all Islamic countries and left them to their own issues.... there would be peace in those countries?
It seems to me that if there is religious rule, and separate beliefs on the religion, there will still be conflict...
edit on 12-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)
Muslims were living good enough even with their differences before US occupation and they can without it.
If we have "real" representation of EVERYONE, things might work, but we don't, we never have, and most likely never will.
Exactly. If every Westerner pulled out of those strife-ridden war zones today - EVERY soldier, educator, doctor, nurse, ambassador, ambassador's aides and staffs, ALL of the embassies closed, all the corporations hiring locals, and the UN disbanded altogether.....and those countries were left to their own devices - they'd destroy each other anyway.
Originally posted by mindlessbrainpower89
reply to post by logical7
yes we all know christianity is so peaceful except that the western leaders attacking the muslim countries are actually christians but lets not consider that because they are not doing it because of their beliefs, they are waging a "war on terror"!!
The innocents dying in carpet bombings and drone attacks must thank them for hunting down terrorists and just die with gratitude on their faces knowing that they are just acceptable collateral damages.
Quit it with these moronic generalizations. Be more specific. Yes, I understand there are some unintelligent Christians who just follow everything the media says but, rest the blame on those individuals who do so, not the ENTIRE religion or on an ENTIRE country. Let me say this too. Everyone here is susceptible to what ever their news tells them. Therefore, this is none of anyones fault this argument rages on. The only thing that is contributing to war is misrepresentation, ignorance, mass deception, and the NWO. Oh, and all the secret societies.edit on 12-6-2013 by mindlessbrainpower89 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by logical7
Muslims were living good enough even with their differences before US occupation and they can without it.
The recent declaration of a fatwa (a binding religious decree) by the Sunni Egyptian cleric, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, against the Shia militant movement, Hezbollah, and Iran as enemies of Islam who are “more infidel than Jews and Christians” is a dangerous turn portending endless war among Muslims on sectarian lines.
Qaradawi’s poisonous rhetoric, which is influencing tens of millions of Sunnis globally via the Qatari television channel, Al Jazeera, is exacerbating the fratricide in Syria, where violence between Sunnis and Shiites is bringing back memories of historic battles and grudges between the two main sects of Islam.
Nevertheless, Muslims killing Muslims has amounted to over 10m. In other words, over the past 60 years 90% of the Muslims killed have been killed by their own people this surely is not Islam! Why are Muslim sects so hateful of one another? What right has the Taliban to think that its ideology has t o be accepted by all others? Do they think that just by forcing women to wear black from head to toe is following Islam? Is it the dress or the mind that has to be Islamic? What the Islamic world cannot deny is that it may follow Islam but Muslims are united in hate. As aspect that is making Islam what it is, is its close association to politics which goes hand in hand with the desire for power o f a cult/tribe.
Let us review the Muslim conquest. In 624, Mohammed led a raid for booty and plunder against a Meccan caravan, killing 70 Meccans for mere material gain. Between 630 A.D. and the death of Mohammed in 632 A.D., Muslims -- on at least one occasion led by Mohammed -- had conquered the bulk of western Arabia and southern Palestine through approximately a dozen separate invasions and bloody conquests. These conquests were in large part "Holy wars," putting the lie to another statement in the U.S. News article that proclaimed the Crusades "The First Holy War," as if the Christians had invented the concept of a holy war. After Mohammed's death in 632, the new Muslim caliph, Abu Bakr, launched Islam into almost 1,500 years of continual imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war, a role Islam continues to this very day.....
The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."
that was comforting!!!
I want to ask, would you accept it as fate/karma if your country get attacked and ruined just like the countries it(government) ruined?
Originally posted by wildtimes
Would you accept it as fate/karma if women finally were in charge so we could STOP all the senseless killing and demolition?
Tell me, what is so wrong with being a zionist? I support them. I guess I am wrong too?
Islam has to have a boogeyman to hate and fight against.
And sorry, but from all evidence available to us, (have you read "The Kite Runner"?) they can't, with OR without it.
Afghanistan, Land of Valor, Land
of Sorrow Contributed by Prof. Dr. Nazeer Ahmed, PhD If there was an angel sitting on top the Hindu Kush mountains looking down on Afghanistan, he would shed a tear for each of the last three thousand years and each tear would be an ocean large enough to cause flooding in both the Kabul River and the Amu Darya. Afghanistan is a land of sorrow, invaded time and again over the centuries, ravaged by mighty conquerors and ruthless destroyers. Necessity has made the people of the land valiant warriors, resisting the writ of foreigners. Today, they stand at a point in history when the destructive force of technological warfare unleashed by nations thousands of miles away threatens to overwhelm them and drag Pakistan into the consequent whirlpool.
King Amanullah was a far sighted monarch. He desired to take Afghanistan out of the middle ages and into the modern age. An open admirer of Ataturk, he travelled to Istanbul to observe and learn from the Turkish experience. Ataturk had banned the wearing of the beards and the fez, forbidden women to wear the hijab, discarded the Arabic script and had adopted the Roman script for the Turkish language. Amanullah contemplated similar reforms for Afghanistan. Ataturk advised him against it saying that the experience of
each country was different and what works in one culture may not work in another. Amanullah did introduce a few reforms. He built schools, universities, roads, hospitals and encouraged intellectuals to participate in the modernization of Afghanistan. The noted journalist Mahmud Tarzi was among those who answered the call and started journalism in Kabul. In 1929 King Amanullah was overthrown by a warlord Bacha Saqaw in a coupe which many Afghans suspect was engineered by the British who would not tolerate a modernized Afghanistan next door to a colonized British India. This was a tragedy for Afghanistan from which it never recovered. It took the Afghans away from gradual, sustained reforms towards escalating chaos, alternating between extremist religion and anarchic communism. Bacha was the son of a water carrier. Upon usurping the throne, he took the title of Habibulla Kalakani. He was an illiterate and incompetent man who surrounded himself with similarly illiterate men. He nullified the reforms instituted by Amanullah and installed a
fundamentalist regime.
What exactly are you hoping to achieve here?
You started out the thread with your original post, which (as far as I can see from what you have written there) presented a documentary you must've seen, which (in your original post,) you presented as an expert (with a short summary of these experts) evaluation of islam, as well as the conclusions of the documentary, and the ideas and opinions you drew from it on Islam. You ended with a challenge to any and all to debunk what you called a "lucid explanation" of "real islam".
I'd like to think in the following pages, you got your response to that at least. Your experts were shown not to be experts at all, and the documentary was shown to be simply a propaganda piece endemic and exemplary of the larger "us vs them" mentality.
Afterwards, the thread evolved, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just confused as to what it evolved into.
Yeah, sure, let's.
Lets go through a checklist, shall we?
Correct. Right. Yes.
You agree and I agree and I'm pretty sure most of us agree that no one people are inherently more prone to violence than any other people, right?
Yes. Right. Correct.
You agree and I agree and I'm pretty sure most of us agree that a vast majority of devout muslims do not hold the views and desires expressed in that video. Right?
Correct. Yes.
You agree and I agree and I'm pretty sure most of us agree that the vast majority of devout christians or non-muslims in general do not desire the downfall of muslims. Right?
I'll go as far as to say that as far as the common people are concerned, the whole "West vs Islam" dichotomy is false, a division drummed up to perpetuate hatred and personal gain. Right?
No question about it.
We can also agree, I think that most scriptures and religions can be twisted and distorted as a means of violence, and that many groups throughout history on all sides HAVE, unfortunately done so.
but I'm sure you'll agree that if the common people of one side (or both sides) DO have such views about the other side, it is more based off self-minded leadership, feeding off people's xenophobia due to politics and greed and desire for power, and certainly not the spiritual (or lack of spiritual) leanings of either side. Right?
That is my goal, and has been from the day I joined, and long long before that.
Hopefully we all reach some common understanding in these points? Yes?
If yes, then I'm sure you'll agree that "But these muslims here did this thing!" and "But these christians here caused that thing!" competitions are meaningless. Useless. Heck, they're nothing but divisive.
You say you wants peace and an end to violence. That is very commendable.
Debatable.
Most people here probably want peace.
Excellent.
I want peace.
Everyone wants peace!
Neither do I.
Now I'm sad to say, on a large scale, I have absolutely no control over this.
You style yourself as a "social worker", but I get the feeling neither do you.
Yes. And I happen to have been trained on a post-graduate level in how to do so.
We can each do our small part in our daily lives, and hope it builds up. I don't think anyone disagrees that we must all do our part. Yes?
I agree with you, and I'm doing what I can as well. I've worked with youth for 20 years.
In the real world, I personally put my efforts towards education, as I believe education of youth is the single most important factor in improving our future. It is also one of the slowest working, but, I do what I can.
Yes, they do. Unless they are hell-bent on bombing other people for any reason.
I'm not calling into question what you do in the real world, I'm sure you put in an equal amount of effort. I'm sure most people who have stopped to think about this do. They may not have jobs dedicated to it, but they each help in their small way.
Now, as far as this specific thread goes, how are you pursuing this goal of peace?
Is it even relevant in terms of a small thread in a subsection of an discussion board on the internet?
I'd say it could be, if someone learns something new that helps them in real life as well. Should that new thing they learn be "Here is a factoid someone on a forum posted that makes me suspicious of this other group I am not a part of!" or should it be "Hey, these other guys are people to, they have many of the same problems I do, maybe they're a bit more lucky or unlucky than me, perhaps I should give them the benefit of the doubt".
What is its purpose?
What I would like it to accomplish is to reassure non-Muslims that Muslims understand our fears, without dismissing them, and are willing to work meaningfully to address them. Violence comes from fear. Reducing those fears are necessary.
So I ask again, to you as the original author, even though the thread may have evolved since the original post, what is your desire in this thread? What is its purpose?
These things that you claim were "shown" were not shown, but only claimed. The criticism of the OP video was based on everything but the fears and facts expressed.
I'd like to think in the following pages, you got your response to that at least. Your experts were shown not to be experts at all, and the documentary was shown to be simply a propaganda piece endemic and exemplary of the larger "us vs them" mentality.
At birth, you're correct, but after a dozen years of social and religious training, you're statement is no longer true. And, I don't care about terrorist babies. I do care about terrorist teenagers.
■You agree and I agree and I'm pretty sure most of us agree that no one people are inherently more prone to violence than any other people, right?
They are not meaningless. They are facts which shouldn't be just brushed aside as "meaningless." The facts which show Muslims committing a hundred times the terrorist attacks of, say, Catholics.
If yes, then I'm sure you'll agree that "But these muslims here did this thing!" and "But these christians here caused that thing!" competitions are meaningless. Useless. Heck, they're nothing but divisive.
How do we know that? Do you accept the polls taken of Muslims which don't show that at all?
■You agree and I agree and I'm pretty sure most of us agree that a vast majority of devout muslims do not hold the views and desires expressed in that video. Right?
But there aren't many that are doing it in this century except the Muslims. Repeating "but you did it, too," doesn't lead to a profitable discussion.
■We can also agree, I think that most scriptures and religions can be twisted and distorted as a means of violence, and that many groups throughout history on all sides HAVE, unfortunately done so.
I don't agree that it is false. Islam's teachings are fundamentally opposed to America's Constitutional principles. An Islamic America is impossible. Oh, the name America could be kept, but it wouldn't bear the slightest relationship to the country as it was founded.
■I'll go as far as to say that as far as the common people are concerned, the whole "West vs Islam" dichotomy is false, a division drummed up to perpetuate hatred and personal gain. Right?
One of our fears, still unaddressed by anyone, is what does the world look like if the Islamic idea of "peace" is in existence a hundred years from now. I suspect Muslims would instantly reject the Western idea of peace.
You say you wants peace and an end to violence. That is very commendable. Most people here probably want peace. I want peace. Everyone wants peace!
First the atheist communists when US was more religious and now the extremely religious jihadists! when its more secular.
i have read it and i don't think you are serious to know world history if you consider a book of fiction as evidence for the situation in Afghanistan!
If first the fight was for God against the Godless wouldn't that make this as the opposite? or both these times God is on the side of USA as the presidents always say at the end of their address to nation?
"God bless America"!! like the other side are not humans and God's creation!