Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes

Originally posted by wildtimes
Ho boy. Another who doesn't read my posts enough to "get me."
I found the video on youtube right after I watched andy06's clip of Stacy Doolley. It just popped up on the sidebar of "related" type vids. I clicked it, based on the title, and I watched it. Period. Then I posted it and asked "is this legit?"

Originally posted by wildtimes
I haven't done that. I said, "Here is a video I found that confuses me, and I'd like to know what Muslim ATS members make of it, please. Is it real? Is it sensationalized? RIGHT FROM THE START I doubted its veracity. How was I to know the interviewees were "not experts"? I ran across the video, watched it, and had questions. LIKE MANY OTHERS HERE WHO ACTUALLY WATCHED IT.

My apologies if I misunderstood you or the beginning of this thread. As I said, I can only really address the "you" that is posted here on the forums, I do not know you. From the original post (still available for posterity), I got:
"This is a documentary I watched. It has experts who explain how Islam is evil. The film covers X, Y and Z. Islam is (negative points mentioned), muslims are (other negative points mentioned). They are evil. Please watch and discuss. Muslim members, I challenge you to debunk this".
I very well may have confused your own opinion with your summary of the video, and thought that you already agree verbatim with the contents of the video. I'm sorry if I was mistaken.

I'm glad to see we are now mostly on the same page! Lets continue the discussion from where we seem to split.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Um.... No. EVERYONE does not want peace. And those who do NOT want peace are the problem. Those who want to bring on "Armageddon" and who labor under the wrong impression that suicide bombing is a way to get to heaven ... DO NOT want peace. They want to destroy enough of humanity to "force" the 'second coming' and the stupid 'prophecies.'

Apologies. I meant again, the common people, and not those who have such an agenda, although I'd personally stress that forcing prophecies and suicide-bombing to heaven are more tools used by the higher ups to trick the uneducated into doing what they want.

Originally posted by wildtimes
No, I don't "style myself" as a Social Worker. I hold a Master's Degree in Social Work, and I know my job, and although here it's for FREE, I do it anyway. MSW. Not self-styled.

I meant no disrespect to you chosen field, perhaps my word-choice was poor. I simply meant that a degree and title is only as important as the importance we give it, and we are what we do. But that is totally tangential to the conversation at hand, so feel free to ignore it.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Now, as far as this specific thread goes, how are you pursuing this goal of peace?

By educating myself and allowing other Westerners who have questions to see both sides of the equation and figure out what in the hell is going on around us. By encouraging dialogue, compassion, cultural competency, tolerance, and altruism.

Again, I'd like to think, as far as the content of the video you initially linked goes, that education has occurred, albeit perhaps littered among pages of infighting. After that, while it may not have been your fault, instead of dialogue and compassion being fostered, we just had a whole lot of bickering. What anyone who read the thread saw would have been both sides of the equation arguing and competing to see who was better.

I am sorry for being dense, but as to a solid purpose of this thread as it is now (as opposed to how it may have started), I am still in the dark. But as far as it goes personally, with me understanding your motivations and where you are coming from, I'm glad this confusion has been cleared up.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

First the atheist communists when US was more religious and now the extremely religious jihadists! when its more secular.

WHOA. Stop. Right there. ATHEIST DOES NOT EQUAL "communist." OMG.

So maybe we have finally identified the "stereotyping" that leads to your confusion.
Your thread regarding 'why should immoral people change?' already covered this topic - and it was CLEARLY pointed out that ATHEISTS have MORALS.

COMMUNISM is something else entirely, and you are WRONG to link them. WRONG.
Show me a video saying that atheists are immoral communists, and I will pick it apart just as you all have done with the vid in the OP.

FOUL! yellow flag on the field.
Shame on you!! Take a time out.

YA ALLAH!!!

Btw that means OMG! and i mean it.
How about the other way round? Are communist atheists? Yes, right?
Can i call them godless communist or atheist communists
I am talking about communist, maybe the context would have hinted that, when did USA fight atheists? they did fight communists. Right?

I wonder how you assumed what you assumed?

reply to post by wildtimes

By a person who knows what the hell they are talking about. Do not EVEN try to pretend that it's all a lie and a fairy tale! It is based on reality. And REALITY is what we have to deal with. Shame on you again if you dismiss literature as "fiction." Those types of books are FAR more "revealing" of real-world issues

i just read on wikipedia and guess in what section are his books put in, no points if you said "FICTION"!!

Yes that book shows the tribal differences and ill treatement of Hazaras by Pashtuns but thats it, the story is a fiction and events in it are fiction based, the author has not been to Afghanistan after the age of 11 and has not seen taliban except what MSM tells about them.
I love his books btw! Still i will rather not take everything it says as true. I have watched videos and read articles that make me skeptical of what the MSM says about enemies of the West and the ground reality in war zones.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

I understand that you are a "frethinker" with no strong allegiance to any particular, conventional religion. May I give you a travel warning?

The annual “freedom of thought” report from the International Humanist and Ethical Union, an advocacy umbrella group that represents and seeks to protect non-religious people, details laws and practices around the world that punish or restrict atheism. The group presented the report to the United Nations today.

The report tracks, among other things, which countries have laws explicitly targeting atheists. There are not many, but the states that forbid non-religiousness – typically as part of “anti-blasphemy” legislation – include seven nations where atheism is punishable by death. All seven establish Islam as the state religion.

Though that list includes some dictatorships, the country that appears to most frequently condemn atheists to death for their beliefs is actually a democracy, if a frail one: Pakistan. Others include Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, the West African state of Mauritania, and the Maldives, an island nation in the Indian Ocean.

www.ask.com...

But you'll probably be Ok. As has been pointed out several times in this thread, Islam is very tolerant towards non-believers. As you're being led to your execution, you can point to the posts here as reasons why your life should be spared.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

It appears I've caused you some frustration, and I want to honestly apologize for that. Frustration can lead to anger and I don't think anyone really wants that.

I think the OP has been debunked and wildtimes herself accepted it.
The thread is now just wandering except you trying to still somehow prove that islam is violent by asking leading questions or assuming the refusal of posters to indulge you as a proof that your assumtions are true, just like you did about the video in OP. Asking muslims to respond to video without ever asking a straight question.

When somebody does answer you. You ask the same question in another twisted way till you get the answer you want and when you don't get it you call muslim posters evasive?

so basically we are evasive and "afraid" because we don't give you answers that you want.

Charles, muslims are not going to agree to something thats not true no matter how well you put it to lead and bait them.
You are free to make sentences/questions that indulge/confirm your own opinions and feel pleased with yourself.

I will accept that criticism. Now, let's fix it and get back on track.

You pick any issue I've raised, which you believe has been thoroughly answered. Let's do this for as many issues as you want, but one at a time, please. I'm sure I'll agree with you on something and we can build a base of understanding from there. OK?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

"5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."

not everyone in either of the Abrahamic religions would be true to its teachings, its a test about who really believes in God and does good and who makes the religion/sect just a way to boost ego and think he/she is righteous and others doomed.

I read the articles and i know who actually rules Iran and what really happens in Iran but why are you mentioning it?

Throughout history, many people have claimed to be prophets. Indeed, there are many self-proclaimed prophets even today, and there will be more tomorrow. Suppose a prophet arises at some point in the future, one who claims to have a new revelation from God.[22] Both Muslims and Christians would reject him. But suppose this prophet says to Muslims, “Brothers, you have believed in the teachings of Muhammad, but I’m here to tell you that Islam was started by God to deceive people. The pagans in Arabia were doing awful things, such as killing their daughters and marrying hundreds of women. God decided to punish them by leading them astray and making all of you believe something that isn’t true. But I’m here to tell you the truth! I am God’s greatest prophet, sent to rescue you from evil!” Would Muslims believe him? Most certainly wouldn’t. But why would Muslims reject this new prophet? They would reject him because they would refuse to believe that God knowingly deceived millions of people. Yet this is exactly what Muslims believe when it comes to the death of Jesus. So if Muslims believe in a God who deceives people, even those who follow his prophets, how can Muslims be confident that they have been given the truth?

Muslims boast about their reverence for God and their respect for the prophets. Yet, upon closer examination, we see that Islam accuses God of one of the greatest religious deceptions ever.
This should cause us to pause and think for a moment. Why would a religion that prides itself on its view of God proclaim that God starts false religions?
Why would people who claim to respect Jesus suggest that he was a tremendous failure?
It appears that Islam is so incredibly desperate to destroy Christianity, that it doesn’t mind destroying itself. In other words, Islam can only explain away Jesus’ death and resurrection by making God out to be a deceiver, which destroys the Islamic conception of God.
This desperation only makes sense if Christianity is true, and if Islam was designed by Satan to keep people from being saved.

Muslims can object to this all they want. They can continue to proclaim their devotion to God and their respect for his prophets. But there’s something strange about the way they explain Christianity.
There’s something very odd about a God who leads the world astray. If Islam is true, God and Jesus are failures. But if Christianity is true, God and Jesus were victorious at the cross, for the door to salvation was opened to all, in spite of those who tried to keep the door shut.

Jesus warned his followers that false prophets would come.

He also commanded us not to believe them. One of the ways we can spot false prophets is by carefully discerning when their teachings lead to unacceptable beliefs about God. God is Truth, and he is Love. Islam, when carefully examined, would have us believe otherwise.

PLease feel free to use Logic snicker to explain this all.

reply to post by yuppa

Dear yuppa,

That's a fascinating approach. Well done, special marks for logic, creativity, and appropriateness.

As an exercise for me, I will try to take what I imagine to be the Muslim side of this argument.

Allah sent Jesus to establish Islam in a major world center. Jesus gave Allah's message, but it was immediately distorted by his followers into an incorrect form known as Christianity. this religion was based upon lies made up and put in the "Bible" by wicked people. After giving the Christians centuries to redeem themselves and return to the true religion, Allah gave up and tried again with Islam in the Middle-East.

The Christians have continued with their error, being the descendants of liars, distorters, and the ignorant. It is up to Islam to bring as many of those poor people back to the true religion as possible. It is acceptable to use any method to do this, first because it is good to have more saved Muslims, and second, because if they refuse to turn to Islam they're obviously damned anyway, so who cares about them or their lives?

How did I do?

With respect,
Charles1952

That would be a argument they would use. Its a good flip side. And I actually got that from another source,Available on request if needed.

reply to post by yuppa

Dear yuppa,

You may recall C.S. Lewis and The Screwtape Letters written from the point of view of a senior demon who was giving advice to junior. He said it was the hardest thing he'd ever done. He said he could feel the ashes in his mouth and his soul closing up as he wrote it.

To a very slight degree I felt the same thing in writing my argument. I truly hope that Islam has a better explanation than mine, because mine was filled with illogic, hatred, and lack of respect for people. It was truly distasteful.

If you've found a better explanation in your researches, I'd be delighted to hear it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

 

Tell me, what is so wrong with being a zionist? I support them. I guess I am wrong too?

You are if you also promote bombing people and starting wars over it.

I support the NWO insofar as the idea is a peaceful planet with everyone on the same page and everyone having what they need. I do NOT support the ridiculous notion of them wanting to "depopulate" the world and make everyone their slaves. Preposterous. Scary, but, in my opinion...really preposterous.

Demonization of humanitarianism is what sticks in my craw.
We need to make the world a place where no matter WHERE a child is born, they will be fed, educated, sheltered, have adequate access to health care, clean water, clean air, clothing, and security. EVERYWHERE, for EVERYONE.

By the way, it was I who starred your two posts above.

edit on 12-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

I don't promote bombing people and starting wars over it but, I do support them defending themselves if they need to. Don't get me wrong, it is kind of hard not to kill others when these people who attack Israel time to time, hide behind innocent civilians like the cowards they are. "Let me go bomb Israel then hide in a community along with innocent civilians." Uh, SMH, I don't think anyone feels good about killing innocent civilians.

As far as supporting the NWO, I wouldn't if I were you. If you knew about their entire agenda, it would make you sick to your stomach..... I wrote this like 14 hours ago and know I don't even know what I was gonna say. I guess this will do it.

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by mindlessbrainpower89
reply to post by logical7

 

yes we all know christianity is so peaceful except that the western leaders attacking the muslim countries are actually christians but lets not consider that because they are not doing it because of their beliefs, they are waging a "war on terror"!!
The innocents dying in carpet bombings and drone attacks must thank them for hunting down terrorists and just die with gratitude on their faces knowing that they are just acceptable collateral damages.

Quit it with these moronic generalizations. Be more specific. Yes, I understand there are some unintelligent Christians who just follow everything the media says but, rest the blame on those individuals who do so, not the ENTIRE religion or on an ENTIRE country. Let me say this too. Everyone here is susceptible to what ever their news tells them. Therefore, this is none of anyones fault this argument rages on. The only thing that is contributing to war is misrepresentation, ignorance, mass deception, and the NWO. Oh, and all the secret societies.

edit on 12-6-2013 by mindlessbrainpower89 because: (no reason given)

this was my reply to another poster, maybe you "misintepretated" it as my stand. Its not. Its more of a mock or sarcasm to get the message across as to how generalisation (as you right said) appears moronic!

Well then good job!

reply to post by babloyi

I am sorry for being dense, but as to a solid purpose of this thread as it is now (as opposed to how it may have started), I am still in the dark. But as far as it goes personally, with me understanding your motivations and where you are coming from, I'm glad this confusion has been cleared up.

I hope it has, and I was pondering this thread and its contents during another sleepless hour during the 4th hour overnight. Again, sleepless.

I accept your "apologies" for not understanding me - they are unnecessary as long as we continue listening to each other with honest sincerity toward mutual understanding. If I make points that are unclear, it is incumbent ON ME to straighten out the issue - not on the listener to decode my intentions. Clarification is ALWAYS productive.

Now, as for the purpose of the thread - I used the title of the documentary for the OP title, and now I'm glad I did that.

Because it reflects my absolute premise:

"Someone Please Tell us non-Muslims in the West What We Need to Know about Islam."

That seems perfectly rational and open-minded to me. Therefore, when I was browsing youtube and spotted a "documentary" proffering the information we desperately need, I WATCHED IT.

Then, after viewing it, I was set back a few steps from where I HAD been after corresponding on ATS with you and other Muslims. I will assume you are not "too dense" to understand that reasoning. So, I brought it here, ASKED YOU to view it and then TELL ME IF IT WAS TRUE.

What is wrong with that? I don't know what else to do than to ASK REAL MUSLIMS.
So, insofar as the thread is revealing WHAT THE WEST NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT ISLAM, and based on the fact that counting myself, at LEAST 30 members have the same questions and uncertainties, it is a valuable tool in which the Muslims are INVITED to address our very real and reasonable fears.

Regardless of the bickering (when has there ever NOT been bickering on this forum regarding ANY religion?) we have collectively established that:

1 ) There are Westerners who want to know more about Islam.

2 ) Many Westerners are afraid, for very valid reasons.

3) "Ignorance of Islam" is being used as a tool to beat us about the head and shoulders with accusations of "hatred."

4 ) Investigation, curiosity, and seeking after knowledge do not equal "HATRED" or "BIGOTRY".

5 ) Many valid QUESTIONS remain unanswered.

6 ) For all you participating but refusing to watch the video (which clarifies the QUESTIONS, thank you very much) and instead focusing on either discrediting the speakers (how were we supposed to know if we didn't ask?) or labelling the extremist/uneducated Muslims as "not really Islam" and those of us asking questions as "haters" and "bigots" --- there have ALSO been answers from a Muslim apostate who WAS TRAINED by these extremist factions, and HE SAYS the video DOES represent SOME MUSLIMS.

Babloyi, I have no wish to make you consider me a foe.

I know THAT I need to know about Islam.

I honestly want to KNOW "What I need to know" (The basics? The diet? The rules? The expectations? The agenda? What? What IS IT I NEED TO KNOW? )

and then find out THOSE THINGS.

I don't know how in the hell you all think we are to absorb all we need to know if you are going to portray us as ignorant haters just causing sensationalized unnecessary fear and refuse to even address our concerns. Can you just answer the questions?

HOW MANY is "a tiny fraction" who want to take over the world? Where are they? How much clout or oversight do they have? What should I expect in the future?

If my "purpose" is still unclear, and you are going to call me an ignorant promoter of hatred, lies, and slander, then that is NOT helping.

Obviously people are still reading the thread - which means:

A) the answers have NOT been adequately given, neither by the video OR by the Muslim contributors, save one, who tells us that the agenda in the video IS VERY REAL for SOME MUSLIMS; or

B) the members reading just want to be entertained by the drama of the disagreement and hostility.

The video was NOT an "attack" on you or logical or sk0rp or mideast or muang or ANY particular Muslim member.

It was simply one in a number of threads that I have posted IN ORDER TO LEARN MORE about VARIOUS RELIGIONS.

HAVE I MADE MYSELF CRYSTAL CLEAR?

I AM NOT A HATER - I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Yes, I mentioned her already - in the parentheses right after I suggested women being in power -
she and Connie Rice and others like Michelle Bachmann are DANGEROUS.

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

If you knew about their entire agenda, it would make you sick to your stomach..... I wrote this like 14 hours ago and know I don't even know what I was gonna say. I guess this will do it.

Yes, I am aware of all the "Agenda 21" hysteria. I don't know what to believe about THAT, either, despite much research.
You know their "entire agenda?" Really? Are you one of the very few elite who are aware of the "real plan"?

MOST OF US know about the nefarious "secret society" plans, BUT NO ONE has PROVEN it. As FF said, 'the West' already has boots on the ground all over the world in their military bases and garrisons. Presumably this is to ensure PEACE in the case of unrest and disruption.

OBVIOUSLY many, many, many "commoners" are unhappy with the status quo as the rulers have established it; and those dicatatorial despots are now getting "pushback" from the very people they depend on for all of the labor and GDP that is making THEM richer and more powerful.

It's not the first time in history this has happened - not by a LONG shot. If the elites want to depopulate the world, why don't they just DO IT already?

WHAT UPSETS ME is the stuff that has been exposed by Bradley Manning - a hero - and Jeremy Scahill - another hero - and others like them. JUST AS UPSETTING is finding out that Obama is COMPLICIT in these activities that are exacerbating the situation rather than promoting PEACEFUL TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY and TOLERANCE.

reply to post by wildtimes

Woah, woah, woah...I don't think I ever called you a hater, nor did I ever mention considering you a "foe". I really hold no antagonist feelings towards you (or really, anyone here). I harbour no ill-will towards you, and there is no insidious attack against you on my part, so your lashing out (at least towards me) seems a bit odd.

You say the video was not an attack on muslims, but really, it WAS. It used hate and bigotry and divisiveness to point out the inferiority of muslims, showing how they're some sort of inhumane robots because they follow a contrived and twisted narrative of Islam, which the video provided. You can imagine how that would make someone feel- I mean, from your responses it seems you got a smattering of that at you from some of the members who responded to you here. So you can understand that all the yells of "Islamophobia!" "Bigotry!", etc. weren't just empty words. I'm sure you could get "some good points" from "The Birth of a Nation", that doesn't mean it isn't a vile piece of hatred and bigotry (that just happened to be very well executed). If someone linked you a video that used the actions of Israel against Palestinians as a jumping off point for a hate-rant against Judaism, wouldn't you call it out for what it was? If someone linked you a video that used crime in african american groups as a jumping off point for a hate-rant against blacks, featuring a panel of klansmen "experts", wouldn't you call it out for what it was?

Now while I can't say that about the video, I can believe you when you say that YOUR THREAD wasn't an attack on muslims here, especially considering your clarification. You say there are a number of questions here unanswered, but again, I'm not finding any. Can you point them out? I'm pretty sure the questions pertaining to the particular video have been answered (individually, generally and even using outside sources), Kgnow's statements (not really questions) have been addressed.
All I see now is pages and pages of people who weren't really asking questions, they had already made up their minds, and their "questions" were like: "Islam is evil, isn't it?" and "Muslims who follow islam are evil, here is a thing I read somewhere (anti-muslim site), prove me wrong!" (and I'm not saying they're by you). When I address their points, they backpedal, or ignore my response, or switch lanes and bring up ANOTHER thing "Islam is evil, muslims are evil, this other website says this this this, now prove THAT wrong", and it goes on and on, which can't really be addressed at all, except to say "No, it isn't evil no more than any other ideology or creed or grouping (religious, political, favourite bandish) that defines a group of people enough to differentiate them from another group of people could be considered evil".

It is true, many non-muslims in the west ARE afraid, very often because of hate-videos like the documentary. They definitely don't help.

You say you want to know about Islam. What do you want to know? So far in this thread I've been more reactive (answering people's questions and addressing their points) rather than proactive (initiating points of my own independent of others), but...what is it you want to know?
I suppose I could provide you some links. Here, I guess?
www.islamawakened.com...

And if you want an over-the-top cheesy, feel-good "counter" to the hatred of the documentary video, I suppose you could watch this (much much shorter than yours, though):
www.islamawakened.com...

Something specific you wanted?

reply to post by babloyi


Thanks for the links.

Sorry for 'bundling you' with the people who HAVE accused me of being a bigoted hater - in this thread and in Kgnow's new off-shoot thread also. I retract that insinuation. No, you have always been open and honest and willing to communicate, and I appreciate that.

I apologize. (Kind of a taste of how you all feel, I bet - when the Extremist views are questioned or you are attacked for being an "evil Muslim". Lesson to be learned there. Thanks.)

All I want is real information so I can make some educated judgments and decisions about things as they unravel before my eyes.

Peace to you, and thanks for reaching out. I want to build a bridge.

reply to post by charles1952

You pick any issue I've raised, which you believe has been thoroughly answered. Let's do this for as many issues as you want, but one at a time, please. I'm sure I'll agree with you on something and we can build a base of understanding from there. OK?

i think you should ask anything that you want to know and i will try to answer you.
I can understand the fear that people may have about islam, it seems that many actually want the fear to be true and that does not make sense.

double post

reply to post by yuppa


I would like that link, yup. ( )
Please.

reply to post by logical7

i think you should ask anything that you want to know and i will try to answer you.
I can understand the fear that people may have about islam, it seems that many actually want the fear to be true and that does not make sense.

Wait. What???
WHO wants it to be 'true' other than the warmongers and Christian Dominionists??

No Western people that I KNOW want it to be true.
We want to be reassured.

So....I asked babloyi, and I'll ask you, too (even though you were addressing Charles):
"I know THAT I need to know about Islam.

I honestly want to KNOW "What I need to know" (The basics? The diet? The rules? The expectations? The agenda? What? What IS IT I NEED TO KNOW? )

and then find out THOSE THINGS.

Can you just answer the questions?

HOW MANY is "a tiny fraction" who want to take over the world? Where are they? How much clout or oversight do they have? What should I expect in the future?"