Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by yuppa

Muslims boast about their reverence for God and their respect for the prophets. Yet, upon closer examination, we see that Islam accuses God of one of the greatest religious deceptions ever. This should cause us to pause and think for a moment. Why would a religion that prides itself on its view of God proclaim that God starts false religions?

God does not start false religion, men do. Do you think the apostles didnt knew that Jesus pbuh did not die? The only sources you have are written and edited by the church that wanted a certain belief to become universal

Why would people who claim to respect Jesus suggest that he was a
tremendous failure?

who suggests that he was a failure? He is to come back and finish his work.
He came to the "lost sheep of israel" and most rejected him and tried to kill him.

PLease feel free to use Logic snicker to
explain this all.

its very simple, all your arguements start from the assumption that christianity is true. If you start from an assumption and run around and reach the same assumption you cannot call that as an irrefutable "conclusion."

lets see now if what i am about to say makes more sense.

I just start thinking and realise that all these amazing things trees, flowers, galaxies and humans must have a Creator.
I also see incredible harmony in nature and space making me logically conclude that it can be only because there is ONE Creator.

So the realisation of One Creator does not require any Holy book etc.

If a book says that Creator has a son who always existed then it starts to insult common sense.
A son by definition should come later.
If thats the case then the son is a creation.
Anything/anyone that has been created/had a beginning cannot be god.

If both the Father and son existed always, you cannot call them Father and son, maybe twins or triplet if you include the spirit.

Jesus pbuh worshipped The Father. He cannot worship someone who is an equal. Jesus pbuh also said that his Father is greater than him, greater than all, in islam we agree and Allah hu Akbar means exactly that.

So if i still want to consider trinity, Father has to have a bigger share in it than the son, so Father's Will matters more than son's and he has to submit to Father's Will like he did "not my will but Your Will be done"

anyone who believes that and acts like that is a muslim, submitting his will to God.

reply to post by logical7

Do you think the apostles didnt knew that Jesus pbuh did not die?

There is no proof of this claim...

Do you think the apostles would lie about him dying on the "stake"?

And if he didn't die, why is there nothing written about his life after his escaping death?

Perhaps he decided not to teach anymore and keep quiet?

This also brings me back to the question I've asked you over and over... How is your book more accurate then books that are far older?

reply to post by Akragon


Debating with a muslim is like playing chess with a pigeon.
I can't say anything more than this.

reply to post by Akragon

And if he didn't die, why is there nothing written about his life after his escaping death?

Same reason why there is nothing written about Enoch after he was taken up to heaven. He wasn't there on earth anymore for people to write about.

The idea that God can "take up" people to heaven isn't even a Koranic innovation. Its right there in the Bible itself!

reply to post by logical7

i think you should ask anything that you want to know and i will try to answer you.
I can understand the fear that people may have about islam, it seems that many actually want the fear to be true and that does not make sense.

You've got wildtimes' question about what she needs to know, and Akragon exploring the logic of your position. Would it be better if I held off until you've dealt with those?

(By the way, I've watched Akragon, worked with him, and disagreed with him. If your reasoning has flaws in it, he will find them and expose them without mercy. You'd better have your game on.)

Originally posted by logical7
God does not start false religion, men do.

Muhammad, being a man, certainly did start a false religion. Luckily we Christians have Jesus Who is God Incarnate. So our faith was started by God Himself.

Do you think the apostles didnt knew that Jesus pbuh did not die?

Oh just stop it. You are paraphrasing from the Qu'ran that was invented 600+ years after Jesus walked on Earth. It has NO information or revelations about Jesus that are even remotely true. It totally contradicts the first hand documentation of the actual events in Jesus life.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Luckily we Christians have Jesus Who is God Incarnate. So our faith was started by God Himself.

Luckily, we Muslims know that Jesus never said he was God incarnate....
and luckily for Muslims, the Bible itself testifies that Jesus was a man who submitted to God. i.e - he was a Muslim in the truest sense.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Akragon

 

And if he didn't die, why is there nothing written about his life after his escaping death?

Same reason why there is nothing written about Enoch after he was taken up to heaven. He wasn't there on earth anymore for people to write about.

The idea that God can "take up" people to heaven isn't even a Koranic innovation. Its right there in the Bible itself!

Fair enough...

So heaven is a physical place in Islam?

Meaning its empty... because theres only a few people who have been "taken up" with God...

reply to post by wildtimes

Wait. What??? WHO wants it to be 'true' other than the warmongers and Christian Dominionists?? No Western people that I KNOW want it to be true. We want to be reassured.

it appears that way when any of the muslim posters try to reassure the other posters, their replies make it appear that they don't believe it and keep pushing as if they actually want a scary answer. I did mention that to Charles and he acknowledged it and i appreciate that

I know THAT I need to know about
Islam. I honestly want to KNOW "What I need
to know" (The basics? The diet? The
rules? The expectations? The agenda?
What? What IS IT I NEED TO KNOW? )

what you need to know depends on how curious you are.
The 1st thing you do need to know that Islam is not what you have been shown by MSM or some other posters.
Very simply, a devout christian cannot be objective about islam nor can an ex-muslim.
So choose your sources carefully.

Don't even take what i or any other muslim poster says without checking it yourself.

HOW MANY is "a tiny fraction" who
want to take over the world? Where
are they? How much clout or oversight
do they have? What should I expect in
the future?"

there are various countries, groups etc that want to "take over the world" China is trying it by trade and commerce, USA by its superior military etc.
Muslims believe that Islam will reach every place and become the dominant religion but it will by its values and teachings not by force.

There are people with wishful thinking that want Islam to "take over the world" but its just their ego talking while they think that they are righteous. You will find that type in many religions so they are not exclusive to islam.
How many? I don't know, but they don't have any clout.

Many muslims who feel victimised and oppressed think that way to feel better and thats about it, they are harmless and themselves suffering and such ideas give them a bit comfort.

Also muslims who do think that way see dominance of Islam as a bringer of peace and harmony, so basically they want peace, just they think it will be by spread of islam as they know that islam can do it and they are muslims.

Christians who want peace think it will happen by spread of christianity.

Atheists think peace will come when there is no religion left!

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

Do you think the apostles didnt knew that Jesus pbuh did not die?

There is no proof of this claim...

Do you think the apostles would lie about him dying on the "stake"?

And if he didn't die, why is there nothing written about his life after his escaping death?

Perhaps he decided not to teach anymore and keep quiet?

This also brings me back to the question I've asked you over and over... How is your book more accurate then books that are far older?

how do you know that whats written in any gospel is what really happened? Or those gospels were written by the person its claimed to be written by?

Don't you believe that he was raised up?

Qur'an is a revealation, Jesus pbuh recieved a revealation called the Gospel.

if i write a gospel of Akragon and people make copies, edit it and add their ideas and after 2000years, someone says "was Akragon lying when he said some statement?"
how much responsibility will you accept for that book and what it says? None. right?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Luckily, we Muslims know that Jesus never said he was God incarnate....

Unfortunately there are some who have been shown the exact quotes in scripture (the first hand historical documents) that show Jesus did indeed claim to be God incarnate ... but those people refuse to acknowledge this fact because it would mean that they'd have to admit that their religion (Islam) is totally bunk.

the Bible itself testifies that Jesus was a man who submitted to God. i.e - he was a Muslim in the truest sense.

Delusional. Jesus wasn't Muslim. That's absurd. Islam tries to reach back into history and claim the big guys as their own even though Islam wasn't invented by Muhammad until hundreds and hundreds of years later. It's silly.

Originally posted by logical7
Atheists think peace will come when there is no religion left!

Athiests think there will be peace when people of religion live and let live.
And they've got a very good point.

Originally posted by logical7
how do you know that whats written in any gospel is what really happened?

How do you know it didn't? Jesus in the gospels has miracles to back up what He preached. Muhammad has nothing more than dead bodies surrounding him to back up his false claims of 'revelation. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Qur'an is a revealation,

No. It CLAIMS to be revelation, but it is just a bunch of made up stuff .. bits and pieces of other religions that were POORLY transcribed by Muhammad. It's full of scientific and historical errors, and I highly doubt that God would have made such errors. But a man making up a false religion would have.

reply to post by Akragon

So heaven is a physical place in Islam? Meaning its empty... because theres only a few people who have been "taken up" with God...

its not empty! Do you think humans are the only created beings? What about angels? Heavens are a busy place, a lot of angels moving about to carry their appointed tasks etc.

Jesus pbuh was raised up physically and will come back to complete his work and kill the anti-christ.

Heaven does not always mean the Heaven and Hell one.
There are 7 heaven or layers, you may call them dimensions and Jesus pbuh is beyond/above this space time thing.

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

I think there's a misunderstanding here.

how do you know that whats written in any gospel is what really happened? Or those gospels were written by the person its claimed to be written by?

How do you know that's true of the Quran? There was only one person involved in writing the Quran, there were several involved in writing the Bible. There were multiple witness to what Jesus did, there are none to Muhammad's revelation. How do we know it was a revelation? Because Muhammad said it was. Why should we believe Muhammad? Because he got a Revelation.

It reminds me of Brawndo in Idiocracy.

Jesus pbuh recieved a revealation called the Gospel.

So the Gospel is the revelation of Allah to Jesus? The Gospels are therefore the infallible word of God? If that's your position, prepare for incoming.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by FlyersFan

No. It CLAIMS to be revelation, but it is just a bunch of made up stuff .. bits and pieces of other religions that were POORLY transcribed by Muhammad. It's full of scientific and historical errors, and I highly doubt that God would have made such errors. But a man making up a false religion would have.

Qur'an is a work of arabic literature that is beyond comparision and those who have studied arabic and Qur'an acknowledge it.
Why should anyone believe your ill informed views?

Forster Fitzgerald
Arbuthnot, who was a notable British
Orientalist and translator, states: “…and that though several attempts
have been made to produce a work
equal to it as far as elegant writing is
concerned, none has as yet
succeeded.”

scientists have acknowledged that the scientific information in Qur'an could not be available in 7th century.
You can continue believing anti islamic sites with an obvious agenda as you yourself want that Islam should not be a true religion.

Originally posted by logical7
Qur'an is a work of arabic literature that is beyond comparision and those who have studied arabic and Qur'an acknowledge it.

The Qu'ran is a bunch of bits and pieces of other religions, POORLY transcribed from them. The Jewish faith, the Christian faith, Pagan practices, Zoroastrian beliefs, and some misogyny sprinkled on top.

Why should anyone believe your ill informed views?

I'm stating facts .. not 'views'
Why should anyone believe your statements that are just faith based and not fact based?

scientists have acknowledged that the scientific information in Qur'an could not be available in 7th century.

Those 'scientists' need to get a refund on their science degrees. The science in the Qu'ran is wrong. And the supposedly revolutionary science that is in there is nothing more than common knowledge of that time. The Summerians knew it all prior to the Qu'ran. There is nothing scientifically new in the Qu'ran. Nothing. And very little of the 'science' is accurate.

You can continue believing anti islamic sites with an obvious agenda as you yourself want that Islam should not be a true religion.

You can continue to believe the pro-Islamic sites with an obvious agenda as you yourself want that Islam be a true religion, when in fact all the evidence points to the indisputable truth being that Muhammad made up a bunch of stuff and claimed to have a revelation from God .. but he didn't.

People make up revelation claims all the time. That doesn't make it true.
And Muhammad did nothing to back up his claims. He performed no miracles.
And his so called revelations contradicted all the (proven) authentic previous revelations.

reply to post by charles1952

It reminds me of Brawndo in Idiocracy.

I KNOW!! Right? I can believe you've seen it.....yet, a moment ago I was going to say 'I can't believe you've seen it.'

ELECTROLYTES.

reply to post by logical7

Qur'an is a work of arabic literature that is beyond comparision and those who have studied arabic and Qur'an acknowledge it.

But, but...and.....and.......
the 'literature' of other faiths and 'other Muslims' don't have merit?

No, it's not "beyond comparison". It's not. It's easily 'compared' and 'contrasted' , whether you like it or not.

reply to post by charles1952

How do you know that's true of the Quran?

Qur'an is its own proof, there are mathametical miracles, unbelievable word repeatations etc
prophet Muhammad pbuh was illiterate and had just one chance to say it and his companions would memorise it.
Qur'an was revealed in 23years. Many miracles were not discovered till Qur'an was written down and the verses numbered.

So the Gospel is the revelation of Allah
to Jesus? The Gospels are therefore
the infallible word of God? If that's
your position, prepare for incoming.

do you think Jesus pbuh had a copy of NT under his arm while preaching?!!
He taught the Gospel he recieved as a revealation.

The gospels that are in NT are written later and have questionable authorship.

Just because they are called "gospels" does not make them "the Gospel" the gospels have some teachings of Jesus pbuh. Jesus pbuh could write. Right? Where is Gospel of Jesus? Why he didnt write it? if the fate of the whole world depends on it?

i am ready for any incoming!!

Originally posted by logical7
Qur'an is its own proof, there are mathametical miracles, unbelievable word repeatations etc

Um ... no. The Qu'ran is full of historical and scientific errors. It's full of contradictions.
It's full of poorly transcribed bits and pieces of other religions. And muhammad performed no
miracles .. he only claimed to have revelations from God ... with no proof.

The gospels that are in NT are written later and have questionable authorship.

The Quran was written later and has questionable authorship. - there, I fixed that for you.

The gospels were written by first hand witness to the life of Jesus and the apostles.
The authorship and time period isn't questionable.

Gospel of Matthew - apostle.
Gospel of Mark - One of the 72 Disciples
Gospel of Luke - got much of his info from Mary, Jesus Mother.
Gospel of John - the Beloved Disciple
Epistles of Peter - Chief Apostle.
Epistles of James and John - Apostles
Epistles of Jude - brother of James

That's pretty clear. First hand accounts.
Unlike the Qur'an that was invented 600+ years later.
BIG DIFFERENCE.