Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes

It's one or the other - "people know their religion" so they can identify a false Imam statement - OR "people don't know Islam and are ignorant" so they CAN'T identify a false Imam statement.

you are assuming that all people are ignorant and all(majority) imams are bad.
Only when both things occur together will a situation develop and that too if people have a reason to listen to the imam, a reason like foreign invasion.

In cultural wrongs, its just education thats required.

Item Four:
MAKE SURE that ALL MUSLIMS and ALL PEOPLE in the world have access to education, so they can ALL READ.

The West did away with illiteracy centuries ago. Maybe Muslims should try it, rather than keeping their women ignorant and not letting them go to school. Maybe India should provide education for ALL the Muslims living there - which population I have previously shown you MOSTLY are uneducated.

Why don't you start there, in Muslim-minority India, and fight for the education of your fellow Muslim countrymen and countryWOMEN? You can sit here all day and defend Islam - but how is THAT fixing the problems?

You're great at making excuses, but you would do better to educate your NEIGHBORS about it - and then encourage them to educate THEIR neighbors - and from there build what we call a 'grass-roots' (from the ground up) movement to fight for the education of ALL MUSLIMS.

But no. You just keep blaming the "ignorant" and "the West." Your country, and all of the Middle-Eastern backward-thinking countries, "should" start looking to EDUCATE, rather than subjugate, terrorize, control and suppress organized action to move Islam into the modern, real world.

reply to post by wildtimes

So. Item One: ESTABLISH A CENTRALIZED OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE and require LICENSURE of Imams, based on "best practice." Item Two: ESTABLISH A METHOD OF DISTINCTION for non-Muslims to know which followers are using those "best practices". Item Three: UPDATE THE QUR'AN AND HADITHS - Either use only the "most recent" of the "revelations." -- Or get rid of everything in the Qur'an and Hadith that are KNOWN to be violent, aggressive, intolerant, and totalitarian. That means WIPING OUT ALL incorrect Islamic 'verses'. Because, as long as ANYONE can use the Quran to back up ANYTHING they want to do - and ANYONE can claim to be an Imam -- it's a mess. And what about the women? Why do they not go to "sermons"? Why are they not Imams?

There are centralised authorities in various countries that educate and watch over imams

non muslims are free to learn and find out what real islam is.

No muslim will ever agree on your suggestion of changing Qur'an.

Women go to sermons, its just not compulsory for them.

women are imams.

reply to post by logical7

Why are some Muslims resorting to violence??
If you think they just want to be violent then you are far from the truth.
Why would even a taliban fighter want to leave his family and go to war?

Oh, is this a pop-quiz?

Wait, I know this one. Learned it from YOU:

BECAUSE they think it is their ISLAMIC duty to go to battle and fight.

By the way, you mentioned in passing that "killing and raping non-combatants" is wrong. But you also say you would "kill" for Islam, even "die" for Islam. And - do you think raping "combatants" is FINE in batte-torn, warring areas?

RAPE IS ALWAYS WRONG, logical7. Combatants or not. And Islam has a PROVEN track record of condoning it - long ago, when Muhammed went on his crusade - and now, still.

reply to post by logical7

There are centralised authorities in various countries that educate and watch over imams

Then why do you keep insisting that "there is no centralized authority" and that "anyone" can become an Imam?
WHICH countries, please?

non muslims are free to learn and find out what real islam is.

Irrelevant. But we are trying. Right here.
HOW are we supposed to know which of you is a "real" Muslim? I've asked you that many times now. Still no answer.

No muslim will ever agree on your suggestion of changing Qur'an.

And therefore, it will NEVER grow up and be part of the 1st world collectively. Nor will it EVER be trusted.

Women go to sermons, its just not compulsory for them.

Why not? So they are hopefully willing to remain "subservient" to the men who DO go? Are women ENCOURAGED to go?

women are imams.

Where? Who are they? I want to see what they have to say.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Rosinitiate, KyrieEleison, and LastStarfighter.

 

Gentlemen (and Ladies, if appropriate),

I hope you don't mind a quick review. Wildtimes started a thread with videos containing information from the Koran, Haddiths, history and current events. I (and she, I believe) would like to know if these facts are correct.

After reading the thread I saw three objections to the video being offered. I listed them thus:
1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.


Dude I just did contradict the videos by saying not all people of any religion are not all a certain way. Pay attention--you agree right? This contradicts the video.
Rosinitiate presents this argument:

Muslims want to take over earth terra with Islam.

Christians would like the same with Christianity.

And Jews would see the same with Judaism.

Which, of course, is the same as Objection #2, above. The video disagrees, claiming that Islam is the only religion teaching the death or subjugation of non-believers. That position is supported, in the video, by quotes from the religious books of Islam and its history.

LastStarfighter offers this:

So you beleive every single muslim is like that? Do you think all white protestants like you are all good as well?

Which has nothing to do with the video at all. Further, I never claimed anything remotely like that.

Finally, KyrieElison suggests this as an argument (?):

I suppose you did not read the entire thread. Why re-invent the wheel?

I don't see you objecting to anyone else. Get that done first, then come to me with your version of events.

Yes of course, I've read the entire thread; I'm not objecting to you or anyone else, just arguments; and why does my version of events have anything to do with anything? We're supposed to be talking about the videos and the ideas expressed therein.

Is there no one who can contradict the videos? Or at least discuss them instead of wasting space on irrelevancies?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by LastStarfighter

 

Do you think all white protestants like you are all good as well?

Erm, I don't think charles is a "protestant".
But, I may be mistaken.

Just as I may be mistaken about Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and others.
At this point, I find ALL of the Abrahamic religions to be suspect.
ALL of their "books" to be suspect as well.

The reason I am here is to try to discern what is Real, and what is False, and WHO are Genuine, and WHO are Frauds.



You take a deFacto standpoint that your problems are from the religions of the world. If you were subjective it would help find truth.

Please don't attack me for having those doubts, and asking these questions.
My goal - my ONLY GOAL - is world peace.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by Rosinitiate, KyrieEleison, and LastStarfighter.

 

Gentlemen (and Ladies, if appropriate),

I hope you don't mind a quick review. Wildtimes started a thread with videos containing information from the Koran, Haddiths, history and current events. I (and she, I believe) would like to know if these facts are correct.

After reading the thread I saw three objections to the video being offered. I listed them thus:
1.) They're all paid shills, trying to make money,
2.) Other religions are just as bad, and
3.) There are just a few bad apples.

Rosinitiate presents this argument:

Muslims want to take over earth terra with Islam.

Christians would like the same with Christianity.

And Jews would see the same with Judaism.

Which, of course, is the same as Objection #2, above. The video disagrees, claiming that Islam is the only religion teaching the death or subjugation of non-believers. That position is supported, in the video, by quotes from the religious books of Islam and its history.

LastStarfighter offers this:

So you beleive every single muslim is like that? Do you think all white protestants like you are all good as well?

Which has nothing to do with the video at all. Further, I never claimed anything remotely like that.

Finally, KyrieElison suggests this as an argument (?):

I suppose you did not read the entire thread. Why re-invent the wheel?

I don't see you objecting to anyone else. Get that done first, then come to me with your version of events.

Yes of course, I've read the entire thread; I'm not objecting to you or anyone else, just arguments; and why does my version of events have anything to do with anything? We're supposed to be talking about the videos and the ideas expressed therein.

Is there no one who can contradict the videos? Or at least discuss them instead of wasting space on irrelevancies?

With respect,
Charles1952

I was contradicting by simply stating the fact that not all people of any race or religion have clone minds. They are not all the same. As you are not the same as all other protestants.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

 

Why is it the same way people like you don't like Islam, don't like Jews, Christians or any other religious faiths?

Erm, because religion is responsible for millions of deaths, and billions of tales of suffering? And...
*slaps forehead twice, waking up the common sense*.....

Many atheist and non-religious people are responsible for millions of deaths too! Good job at slapping your forehead.

wait......

OH!! I know this one.....erm, because ...... ALL OF THEM are based on HEARSAY, ancient mistranslated documents that are mostly disintegrated and only represent a FRAGMENT of what once existed and are missing integral components that were written in dead languages by scribes listening to wandering shepherds DECADES after the supposed 'prophets' and 'messiahs' lived?

Hearsay, according to you. Maybe you ought to look at the evidence religious communities have brought forth through science and other ways.

Because NONE of it can be proven?

^^^^^^^^^^

Ummmmm.........OOhhh! oh oh...because I'm TIRED of children being indoctrinated into hateful, vengeful, finger-pointers who think they are "special" and everyone else not only can, but will go to "hell"?
*bites lip*
Did I pass the quiz??

You passed the quiz as a typical stereotypical person.

What did we do to those people who are atheist or who are like them?

Erm, well, do you count 'polytheists' and 'agnostics' and 'pagans' in "people like them"?
Okay, yeah, me too.
"What did 'you' DO?"
You slaughtered them and forced them to convert on pain of death, rape, slavery, subjugation, poverty, and torture? Is that right??

I think you are thinking of the Catholic Church and Constantine.

Why does it even matter to people like you posting provocative pictures as your profile avatar?

*clears throat*
Oh, wait.

*checking*
Oh!! Are you new?
*double checking*

*slaps forehead again*

Yes!! You ARE brand new!! Welcome to ATS.

Any more questions, just let me know!

How's DC holding up, bro?
Oh.

Not so good? Yeah, that's what I thought, too.

Actually, it is holding up pretty well and I have one more statement to make. I understand there are many radical Muslims, it's just I don't want to see Muslims who are PEACEFUL here in the US get attacked just because of what is going on in Great Britain. I assure you, if something happens like that here in the United States where Muslims are not protesting for a LEGITIMATE purpose than I believe this is when it will be time for all PEACEFUL Muslims, Christians, and Jews, as well as the rest of America to stand up against them. In the meantime, we should support Great Britain if they need any help in this case. At the same time make sure we don't go on a witch hunt for Muslims in general.

By the way, am I too harsh for anyone here on ATS? I ask because, I know people in general on here get harsh with others ALL of the time.

P.S. I am not going to tell anyone my denomination on here. Especially knowing how judgemental people are on here about others just being religious. Not to mention, people don't have to be politically correct or typo free to be smart.

I don't know if a new approach will be of any benefit. Lord knows we've tried about everything else and gotten nowhere. This isn't the way I wanted to go, but no one seems to be responding to the significant points, just nit-picking minor details. So let's try this:

ISLAM ON THE GROUND

Forget, for just a minute, what the Quoran has to say. You can even set aside that it exists. Look for a moment at what Muslims are actually doing, for whatever reason.

We know that Christians and Jews are being pushed out of Muslim countries. The "massive" figure of 25,000 Jews in Iran that people like to use to show how tolerant Muslims are? The latest Iranian government survey (2011) shows there are fewer than 9,000. Two thirds have vanished in the last decade.

We know Coptic Christians are being sliced and diced. Christians in Africa are having churches burned down and worshippers killed. Boko Haram and Al-Shabab are shooting left and right. Persecution of non-Muslims is going up.

Just the Sunnis alone commit more terrorist acts than all other groups in the world combined, and are responsible for more than 2/3 of the deaths caused by those attacks. I don't have figures for what the Shias are adding to the count.

Speaking of Shias and Sunnis, I understand there are about 200 different Islamic sects. They can't all be true Islam, but leave that aside for a minute. Let's compare that to Catholics, another one billion plus member religion. How many sects do Catholics have? None. And how many thousands of terrorist attacks are Catholics launching in the name of their religion? I'd be surprised if there were 20.

So, two world wide religions of over a billion adherents. Both have long histories. One has 200 sects, the other has none. One launches a dozen terrorist a day, the other doesn't even launch one a day. And of the terrorist attacks committed by one religion, many occur in countries that have done them no harm. It seems the only purpose in those attacks is to gain concessions, drive out or kill non-believers, and seize territory.

Now, do you see even a small part of the problem?

HAVE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR?

Originally posted by charles1952
I don't know if a new approach will be of any benefit. Lord knows we've tried about everything else and gotten nowhere. This isn't the way I wanted to go, but no one seems to be responding to the significant points, just nit-picking minor details. So let's try this:

ISLAM ON THE GROUND

Forget, for just a minute, what the Quoran has to say. You can even set aside that it exists. Look for a moment at what Muslims are actually doing, for whatever reason.

We know that Christians and Jews are being pushed out of Muslim countries. The "massive" figure of 25,000 Jews in Iran that people like to use to show how tolerant Muslims are? The latest Iranian government survey (2011) shows there are fewer than 9,000. Two thirds have vanished in the last decade.

We know Coptic Christians are being sliced and diced. Christians in Africa are having churches burned down and worshippers killed. Boko Haram and Al-Shabab are shooting left and right. Persecution of non-Muslims is going up.

Just the Sunnis alone commit more terrorist acts than all other groups in the world combined, and are responsible for more than 2/3 of the deaths caused by those attacks. I don't have figures for what the Shias are adding to the count.

Speaking of Shias and Sunnis, I understand there are about 200 different Islamic sects. They can't all be true Islam, but leave that aside for a minute. Let's compare that to Catholics, another one billion plus member religion. How many sects do Catholics have? None. And how many thousands of terrorist attacks are Catholics launching in the name of their religion? I'd be surprised if there were 20.

So, two world wide religions of over a billion adherents. Both have long histories. One has 200 sects, the other has none. One launches a dozen terrorist a day, the other doesn't even launch one a day. And of the terrorist attacks committed by one religion, many occur in countries that have done them no harm. It seems the only purpose in those attacks is to gain concessions, drive out or kill non-believers, and seize territory.

Now, do you see even a small part of the problem?

HAVE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR?

You have made yourself quite clear. I actually fully understand where you are coming from. That is why I believe we still should have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention, we need to stand beside Israel and protect them. That is just my opinion though.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Why are some Muslims resorting to violence??
If you think they just want to be violent then you are far from the truth.
Why would even a taliban fighter want to leave his family and go to war?

Oh, is this a pop-quiz?

Wait, I know this one. Learned it from YOU:

BECAUSE they think it is their ISLAMIC duty to go to battle and fight.

By the way, you mentioned in passing that "killing and raping non-combatants" is wrong. But you also say you would "kill" for Islam, even "die" for Islam. And - do you think raping "combatants" is FINE in batte-torn, warring areas?

RAPE IS ALWAYS WRONG, logical7. Combatants or not. And Islam has a PROVEN track record of condoning it - long ago, when Muhammed went on his crusade - and now, still.

edit on 10-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Its an Islamic duty to go to battle and fight WHEN ATTACKED!!

When i wrote that killing and raping non combatants is wrong i did get a thought that "hope nobody comes and asks me if i approve raping combatants"
i didnt expect it from you.

My religion teaches me to honour women and i know that rape is always wrong.
I don't know what sources you use, Muhammad pbuh never condoned rape but ofcourse it doesnt take much to keep slipping in some ignorant views about Islam assuming them to be educated.

You are not helping in anyway towards the idealistic aims of peace you promote by replies to me, do you think i don't know my own religion's history? Or how prophet Muhammad pbuh was?

I have no reason to believe the history written by an agenda driven church, groups, governments right from the advent of islam till now.
I cannot believe anything completely from your history when your history says "columbus discovered america"
Really? What were indians who were already living their? Red monkeys?
For you, even terrorism starts at 9/11 which was actually an inside job.

You invaded Afganistan to help the women ya right!
France invaded Mali to save people? more true would be to save puppet government and protect future interest into the untapped natural resources.
The crusaders went to liberate holy land or to massacre 30,000 muslims and jews.

You can believe whatever you are told, there is information out there that will give confirmation for either stand, if you want the truth you'l have to dig deeper.

reply to post by logical7


uh.....
You are including me in the "you" and "your" thing?
"I" did nothing of the sort. "I" have nothing to do with organized religion. So, is this a blanket accusation of 'the West' and all of its citizens? REALLY?!!

I have no reason to believe the history written by an agenda driven church, groups, governments right from the advent of islam till now.
I cannot believe anything completely from your history when your history says "columbus discovered america"
Really? What were indians who were already living their? Red monkeys?
For you, even terrorism starts at 9/11 which was actually an inside job.

How utterly ridiculous.

I can't believe anything completely from your history, either!

I'm done here. Carry on. Good luck, and Godspeed, logical7.
It's been a real pleasure corresponding with you.
I really have nothing more to say.

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

That's really too bad, you don't know what an opportunity you've missed by turning off wildtimes. Oh, well, I'll hang around for a while. Why don't you look up the thread a few posts and comment on what I wrote there. Happy to listen to your response.

Charles1952

reply to post by LastStarfighter

As you are not the same as all other protestants.

Really?

He's Catholic. But, you would have had to read the thread to figure that out.....so......no biggie.
:shk:

Wow. LOTS of 'post and participation fails' on this thread.
Oh welll.
It's useless anyway.
Carry on, everyone. I give up.

Do whatever you want. I've done my best. I might be back with a new thread in the future, but...this one I am abandoning. It's just gotten out of hand, and ridiculous.

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

It was a noble effort and I salute you for undertaking it. You've shown a desire for peace and understanding, unfortunately it was not reciprocated. That's a frightening omen, but you did what you could.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes


Check this out Wildtimes. If you have the time.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the type of thing Sharia law encourages when it promotes Jihad on the streets of Great Britain.

reply to post by mindlessbrainpower89

Actually, it is holding up pretty well and I have one more statement to make. I understand there are many radical Muslims, it's just I don't want to see Muslims who are PEACEFUL here in the US get attacked just because of what is going on in Great Britain. I assure you, if something happens like that here in the United States where Muslims are not protesting for a LEGITIMATE purpose than I believe this is when it will be time for all PEACEFUL Muslims, Christians, and Jews, as well as the rest of America to stand up against them. In the meantime, we should support Great Britain if they need any help in this case. At the same time make sure we don't go on a witch hunt for Muslims in general.

Well, since you're way late to the party and attacking the hostess without even having READ the thread, introduced yourself, or taking the time to READ my posts and other threads, let alone the link in my signature (your invitation), missed the whole first semester of this class AND are a freshman, I'll forgive you not realizing that THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR 2 YEARS NOW, smart guy.

By the way, am I too harsh for anyone here on ATS? I ask because, I know people in general on here get harsh with others ALL of the time.

You are too harsh with people you don't know one tiny bit, yes!!! We are here to discuss things. You haven't shown any reason for anyone to want to engage with you so far.

You assuming you know ANYTHING about ANY OF US after only 6 days and popping in here to tell us that we are ignorant, stereotypical people with a stupid agenda who haven't done our research is not winning you any points either.

P.S. I am not going to tell anyone my denomination on here. Especially knowing how judgemental people are on here about others just being religious. Not to mention, people don't have to be politically correct or typo free to be smart.

I don't care about your denomination. You don't know much about "how other people are" on here. You haven't been around long enough. Unless you got banned and are now "back", or have been lurking for ever and not participating - which I highly doubt, or you'd know me by now. Obviously, you don't.

Fail.

Not to mention, people don't have to have a "chaste and modest" avatar to be smart, either. You are "judging me" by my "provocative avatar" (Oh My God I Can See That Woman's Face, Neck, and Shoulders! My Eyes, My Eyes! I Should Pluck Them Out!) AND calling me names AND telling me my mind and my life.
I don't think I care to hear what you have to say anyway.
:shk:

reply to post by andy06shake


Thanks andy! Glad they brought swift justice down without murder on EITHER side.
This time.

reply to post by charles1952


Dear Charles,

I was just reviewing this thread, and saw your wonderful post here again....and read it through for the 5th or 6th time.
If I didn't respond to it before, I apologize. If I did, I have no qualms about responding to it again as a wrap up for this thread.

I am so grateful that you have helped me to try to open this discussion and keep the thread on-topic, and I appreciate your support for peace, communication, and real-world problem-solving skills.

Evidently logical7 is not really interested in spreading "true Islam" to Muslims - he's just interested in telling 'the West' how wrong we are.

I hope you got applause for your contributions here. (You have from me, in any case, numerous times!) I'll be surprised if any of the Muslim members actually step up to make suggestions besides "accept Islam!"

With highest esteem,
~wild