Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by wildtimes

Karma needs an intelligent active, aware Source.
No, consequences result from actions.

maybe you didnt get me, yes consequences result from actions but not always as one can escape them but karma continues to affect in new life too right?
If i kill someone and then die,who is remembering it to punish me in next rebirth? And whatever that program is knows killing is wrong so it knows morality.
So if anyone is following relative morality but its not standard morality that karma wants then that person would have somehow harmed others and bear the karma of it in next life till he/she learns the standard one.
So there is a standard morality expected in reincarnation theory and it must have been designed by the Source and the karma dispensed by it too. For that the source should be All Aware and have memory and intelligence.

reply to post by logical7

who is remembering it to punish me in next rebirth? And whatever that program is knows killing is wrong so it knows morality.

Your Own Soul is remembering. Your SOUL knows killing is wrong.....
it does NOT take a 'father figure' or 'overseer' threatening you to burning in hell to see that!!

reply to post by wildtimes

If angels are guardians/protectors, who wants us to be guarded and against what?

The angels, and harm.

why? Just like we feel like guarding lower animals?
If angels do it by choice then wouldnt be there angels that are cruel. It would be interesting to know if angels have organisations like Prevention of Cruelty Against Humans
If they dont have a choice and they protect us from harm by ourselves and others then they have been created that way. But why create a weak creation that requires protection? Maybe because only we have a choice to be as immoral as animals to as good as angels. We have to see which end we are drifting.

reply to post by logical7

why? Just like we feel like guarding lower animals?

Yes, just like that. But I know you don't give a crap about 'lower animals'.

If angels do it by choice then wouldnt be there angels that are cruel.

No. They would not be 'angels' if they were cruel to ANYONE.

It would be interesting to know if angels have organisations like Prevention of Cruelty Against Humans

Yes, it would.

reply to post by sacgamer25

In your opinion do most women want to find a man who is strong enough to provide for his family, wise enough to make the right choices, and has enough faith to put love first?

Yes.

If a woman found such a man would she accept him as the leader of the house and be happy to love him?

Yes.

But THOSE MEN are hard to find.

reply to post by logical7


Here is what the bible says.

Remember this entire passage is a curse!!

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,

and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.


Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. God cursed us, Jesus taught us how to break the curse, but husbands fail to listen. Husbands serve your wife the way the Christ served the church.

In your opinion do most women want to find a man who is strong enough to provide for his family, wise enough to make the right choices, and has enough faith to put love first? Wild "Yes"

If you want a woman who will want you to rule her house serve her first in love and she will gladly love you in return. If you are not this man then become him, if you cannot become him you really don’t belong talking to anyone about marriage.

If a woman found such a man would she accept him as the leader of the house and be happy to love him? Wild "Yes"

If you want to find love you need to first find it in a woman. To find it there you must serve her, because by her nature she loves you. It is you that is lost for woman was born to love men. Most women.

Do you see if a man becomes the type of man that most women want, and this has very little to do with physical or sexual attraction, she will naturally let him be in charge. He has earned that he deserves her trust by demonstrating his ability to guide the family in a loving direction. Why would she get in the way of her husband leading her down the path of love?

Women naturally love but there is no greater love shared between two than a wife's love for her husband, when she truly feels loved. Except maybe her love for her children and for God.

If a women covers her head because of her love for God that is beautiful, but if she feels forced by religion than she should feel free to love God how she chooses. If she is right she will find love. If she finds love, then God has considered her clean, and so should everyone else.

If the woman does not find love, maybe it is right for her to cover her head, but again this also would be her choice.

I hope you can truly "see", what I am trying to show you.

Thank you Wild, Just trying to help.

reply to post by wildtimes


Unfortunately no one is teaching their little boys to become men like this. It's such a shame because it takes so little to break the chain. How many more generations until we realize that marriage and family have to become priority if we are ever going to find love?

If you take a look at my response to logical7 you will "see" why I asked.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Unfortunately no one is teaching their little boys to become men like this.

"No one?" Really? c'mon sac, you know better than that....
I taught my son to become a 'man like that'. He's out on his own now, and considers himself 'the man of the house'. He lives on the ground floor...landlady and her toddler live on the second floor.....another tenant on the 3rd floor. He manages to help get them all 'where they need to be' (he has a car) physically, and make sure rent money is accumulated. He's a kind, understanding, and generous person.
Please.
Don't say "no one" is teaching their boys. It's not true.

My eye is starting to twitch....means I need to get off of here....

reply to post by wildtimes


Ok, not many. Yes there are some who understand. Sorry

reply to post by wildtimes

How are you certain that your beliefs are true? You have no proof. I am certain that I am uncertain, and I live a good life anyway. You are 'certain' that you are 'right', and yet you both promote and condemn clearly inhumane behaviors. I condemn ALL INHUMANE BEHAVIOR, out of respect for the living. No God required.

i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

Being certain about being uncertain is not something to be proud of! Its something that should be changed, its a natural instinct to investigate and know.

What inhumane behaviours have i promoted?!!

reply to post by wildtimes

There you go again, pretending I haven't answered this before. I have studied as many "other ideas" as I have found so far...and the only thing I thought was 'universal' were the BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS set forth by the U.N. I didn't know that there were people who don't believe in those rights. THAT was my ignorance, because they seem to me SELF- EVIDENT.

studying many "other ideas" when the cup is already full is not going to be beneficial. It may provide psychological satisfaction of being learned and open minded but no progress of the soul.

UN is not a reprenstative of all people in the world, it fails miserably to uphold human dignity, it wants to legalise prostitution! Its UN who either approved or was silent when wars and genocides were committed. An organisation where some nations have veto power can be no upholder of human rights of everyone! No matter how sweet n rosy their charters look on paper.

They seem self evident beacause they promote the same relative morality in which you grew up and live.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If a woman found such a man would she accept him as the leader of the house and be happy to love him?

- Happy to love him? Yes.
- Leader of the house? There is no 'leader of the house'. Married people are a team. All decisions are discussed and made togther.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
If the women does not find love, maybe it is right for her to cover her head, but again this also would be her choice.

I don't understand this statement. Would you explain? Thanks.

reply to post by wildtimes

This is irrelevant. I expect people to have integrity, and if they believe something, they should act accordingly. Believing Mohammed flew to heaven on a horse is just as preposterous as the 'resurrection' story.

you expect integrity from only muslims? Or everyone including reincarnationist killing their baby girls?!!
I agree that actions and belief should match but if your belief is certainly uncertain, wouldnt your actions be the same?

You say, Angels exist, the winged creature may exist yet an Angel can't take a human on that creature to show the full reality? Really?
That belief is anyways not that relevant to muslim belief, its just a thing used by outsider as a weak arguement. The six articles of faith are, One God, Prophets, Books, Angels, Jugdement day, Predestiny.

Yes. I accept full responsibility for
living my life to the very best of my
ability. I don't need to accept beliefs
"just to be on the safe side." That's
fear, not accountability.

i have not accepted a belief just to be on the safe side, its just an observation i shared.

I am not asking just about this life, i am asking about what happens after death, you are accepting wherever the uncertainty will take you? If its reincarnation thats the reality then that or heaven/hell? Well nobody will mind heaven, so if your uncertainity leads you to hell, you'l accept it without complain?
I am just asking, i don't know who will end up where including me.
Just want to know if you can bet your eternity on your belief.

Its not fear, its common sense, i am not a gambler. I will not give my life and afterlife to a coin flip belief especially when the belief will happen(reincarnation) even when i dont believe in it (if its true).
I am not going to put a book marker in a half read book hoping to finish it in next birth! I am going assume and do everything needed to meet the Source when i die. To want to meet the Source i should love It more that the world. I should be grateful for the chance i got and feel it everytime even when i drink a glass of water that has been made available for me. Then i woùld have a mindset to really meet my Creator.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You just proved my point. YOU think that morality is one thing .. Christians think morality is something else .. Buddhist something else ... Jews something else. No one can agree on what 'morality' is. Therefore, to tell others to change and be 'moral' like you are ... that's silly. Because your 'morality' may not be what God wants.

you ignored my point, it was that Jesus pbuh may not be what you believe him to be by your own standard of refusing to take NT even as a moral guide forget about it giving knowledge of God

That's just being a gentlemen. You
know very well that in Islam women
are treated as second class citizens in
important matters .. decision making
matters .. money matters ... legal
matters ... forced to dress a certain way ... forced not to be able to be
independent ... in places forced not to
be able to drive or get an education
because it's 'immoral' for women to be
like that ...

thats your perception, not the reality, muslim women are not forced anymore than western women feel forced to confirm to fashion trends or culture, you will frown if you watch a hijabi woman in your neighbourhood and people in muslim countries would disapprove of a woman in western clothes in their neighbourhood.

Is being a gentleman a monopoly of a certain civilization? Muslim men can be more gentle than you think, just because a man wears a turban and a beard does not make him unloving and uncaring to his wife and kids.
A wife does not shake hands or hugs other men and her husband follows the same standard.
Its just a different way where sexuality is extremely restricted to within the marriage making a man go home for his needs and a wife relaxed that he is not staring at other women's body parts. A sisterhood of every woman covering and reaping the benefit of having their husband desire only them.
I am not removing the responsibility from men. I am saying that their are multiple protections (including responsibility from men) in place aimed at maintaining the integrity of family which is a unit for the society. If husband,wife or kids think of home as the last place they would like to go then the society is moving towards trouble.

Misogynistic men who are afraid of
women who are smarter or who can
be independent.
With freedom, those men would lose
their footstools. Their egos couldn't
take it.

Is it not misogynistic to force woman to cut her hair short and dress like men to get accepted in the competitive world of men, either that of force them to use their beauty and sexuality to sell themselves as desirable employees or sell some products? But its all good when done under the tag of "woman empowerment"!
Sharia does not let men exploit women's natural compassion, innocence and sexuality.
Why do men travelling in business class get a beautiful, sweet voice, typically dressed airhostess? Whose egos are being fed? And then that poor woman is "let go" when she has kids or reach a certain age as she no more has what the men wanted to see. Great isnt it
Why do you think 70% of converts to Islam in USA are young women? Men should have been attracted to this misogynist ideology, no?

Originally posted by logical7
it was that Jesus pbuh may not be what you believe him to be by your own standard of refusing to take NT even as a moral guide forget about it giving knowledge of God

The New Testament is MY moral guide ... but I have no right to push it on you and tell you that you are being immoral because you don't follow it. Just as YOU have no right to tell others that they are supposedly immoral for not following the archaic Muslim traditions and that they should change.

thats your perception, not the reality,

No. That's the reality.

muslim women are not forced anymore than western women feel forced to confirm to fashion trends or culture,

Tell that to the women of Saudi Arabia and Iran and Afghanistan who are beaten by those who think they are morally superior .. beaten because hey dont' cover their head or because they dare to wear sandals that show their toes.

A wife does not shake hands or hugs other men and her husband follows the same standard.

And that's YOUR version of moral. It's not immoral for a woman to shake hands with a man. And to tell others that they have to conform to your version of morality .. thats wrong.

Is it not misogynistic to force woman to cut her hair short and dress like men to get accepted in the competitive world of men,

Lemme know when you find such a place forcing women to do that. I know of no such place that forces women to act like that. However, I do know of many places that force women to cover themselves from head to toe and to be dumbed down footstools for men - under the threat of being beaten or thrown in prison. All in the name or 'morality'.

Why do you think 70% of converts to Islam in USA are young women?

Self loathing stupidity [hey .. you asked]

Originally posted by logical7
i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

... and yet Muhammad contradicted the New Testament and what Jesus said.
So how exactly are you so certain when you are using two opposing sources
to base your 'morality' on??

reply to post by FlyersFan

Well .. you'll definately get that. I'll give you this much ... you are more pleasant about getting hit over the head with facts by a woman than some of your compatriots are.

They get downright nasty (and irrational).

thanks, i think women are intelligent,co-operative and naturally spiritual and men can learn a lot if they listen to women. I don't agree that you are hitting me on head with "facts" they are your opinions and perceptions.

They
claim it's moral to not let women drive
or not let women dress in jeans and
sandals or it's not moral for children to play with Barbies or squirt guns ....
Pretty dang absurd, isn't it?

yes its absurd.
But its also wrong to claim immoral things as ok and you will agree that sexual relations outside marriage are damaging to the spirituality of a person, the same for greed and lust for indulging any other desires.
A belief in God automatically starts influencing morality of the believer if they honestly acknowledge a higher power and not just make it(religion) a tool to further their own egos and desires. Do you agree?

reply to post by FlyersFan

The New Testament is MY moral guide ... but I have no right to push it on you and tell you that you are being immoral because you don't follow it. Just as YOU have no right to tell others that they are supposedly immoral for not following the archaic Muslim traditions and that they should change.

NT is my moral guide too and the Qur'an they are teaching the same morality.
The stopping of immorality is a duty of people who know better. I am all for USA attacking Saudi Arabia to let people free from tyrrany disguised as Sharia which is ruining image of Sharia for you.
The simple thing is any kind of immorality either harms someone directly(crimes), indirectly(poverty,hunger due to a greedy social and economic system) or oppresses individual freedom(moral police in Iran)
are you saying we should let others being harmed just to let individuals use their freedom to commit immoralities?

Lemme know when you find such a place forcing women to do that. I
know of no such place that forces
women to act like that.

see around you, subtle forcing is no better and actually worst, tell me why would a woman want to display masculine characteristics especially when she climbs up in power positions.

Why do you think 70% of converts to
Islam in USA are young women?

Self loathing stupidity [hey .. you
asked]

good i did, got to know your opinion, whats the word to describe a woman who thinks other women are dumb and stupid because they make a different choice?!
You could have a coffee with saudi imams, you have a lot of similar opinions about women who don't agree with your views!
Do you also want to put convert muslim women in therapy or something? A tiny bit better than moral police beating the stupid ones who like western clothes.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

... and yet Muhammad contradicted the New Testament and what Jesus said.
So how exactly are you so certain when you are using two opposing sources
to base your 'morality' on??

morality is the same, its a certain part of belief that is different.
Jesus pbuh came to restore a balance between following law and having mercy and compassion, he found the latter missing and taught that, Prophet Muhammad pbuh came to pagan lawless arabs so taught laws and compassion.