Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Side note to WIldtime - IMHO It's entirely possible for Jesus to have risen from the dead in a glorified body ... I say that because God can do whatever He wants AND we understand VERY LITTLE about our existence and about reality.

Very true.

Yes, it is possible, and yes we know VERY LITTLE. I think, though, just the fact that he survived would be miracle enough. I don't see the evidence that he rose in a glorified body after being totally dead, because he still had holes and bruises, was hungry, etc. Seems more rational that he 'miraculously' "recovered" - as does happen from time to time with ordinary people.

But we don't know, really. Either way, he certainly made a splash!

Originally posted by wildtimes
That is team-work. We don't always agree, but we do discuss things.

There ya go. Team work. He is not over me. I am not over him. Equal say. And this works very well.

As for the motorcycle thing ..... I said no because of the cost of the bike and the insurance ... but also because it's very dangerous and we can't take any chances on him being in an accident. I can't work anymore due to serious health issues so we have to be very careful with my husbands health. We can't afford for anything to happen to him. A motorcycle is taking too much of a chance ... ya' know??

Originally posted by wildtimes
Either way, he certainly made a splash!

Major understatement, eh? Two billion people on the planet at the moment are Christians and most of them believe Jesus is god incarnate. Yep .. that's a major splash on world history.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yes wild in my house I would have to live with the kitten and she would have to live with the motorcycle. Neither a motorcycle nor a kitten is against love. So it's acceptable. But you are right, no way is that motorcycle coming in the house. LOL

reply to post by wildtimes

It takes intelligence to create intelligence.
This makes no sense toward the discussion.

It is important to the topic and my stand that Morality comes from God as He designed it and deviation from that set standard is immorality and it will violate the golden rule and directly or indirectly harm others/self.
You cannot keep denying something that your own thinking is leading you to.
I'l make this a separate post just to understand why you deny a Conscious, All Aware, Intelligent Source/God. If your reason is that its because Abrahamic religions have that idea and so you want to distance yourself from it then you should think again. I hope my guess is wrong and you have valid, thought out reasons to what you believe and what you deny.

reply to post by logical7


You're doing that thing again - pretending you don't already know what I think and believe.

It is important to the topic and my stand that Morality comes from God as He designed it and deviation from that set standard is immorality and it will violate the golden rule and directly or indirectly harm others/self.

That's your OPINION. SCIENCE is showing that Bonobos and Chimps exhibit compassion and helpfulness, sympathy, etc. Elephants GRIEVE with TEARS.

You cannot keep denying something that your own thinking is leading you to.

My own thinking is not "leading me to" believe that morals come from the Godhead. Morals are inborn in normal people.

It might also be coded int our DNA, or evolution as a social species. One does not have to "believe" that we were created TO WORSHIP GOD, nor that this "God" is paying any attention at all for people to have MORALS.

Sheesh logical! You're getting more and more uncivil as we go along here. Very defensive and apparently intentionally "forgetting" what I have already told you. I haven't changed my mind, and you really do not know how much I have studied these things and thought about them....for longer than you've been alive.

reply to post by wildtimes

That's your OPINION. SCIENCE is showing that Bonobos and Chimps exhibit compassion and helpfulness, sympathy, etc. Elephants GRIEVE with TEARS.

science is finding it now, the compassion in animals is existing from as long as they exist pointing towards the possibility that it was coded as you agree. Compassion does not have an observable, tangible benifit so quickly, say within the lifetime of an organism and it directly conflicts survival of the fittest, why a mother deer will try to gore a carnivore to protect a young one going against its own survival instinct? Can it think that its required to continue the specie or its just a coded instinct? I hope you'l say its coded, it cannot evolve. Who coded it?

One does not have to "believe" that we were created TO WORSHIP GOD, nor that this "God" is paying any attention at all for people to have MORALS.

YES,
i dont need to know who invented/discovered Calculus to use it.
but whats the truth?

Did God made/decided morals and code them in living beings?
I am saying that i want morals of a uncorruputed child in everyone but as people grow their is a struggle between satisfy the "I" and doing whats right. It can't be done till the "I" is strong. To make "I" weak the "I" should know that there is a Big "G". Making the "I" weak by any other way will work too but not as good, these are the ways you think are best.

reply to post by wildtimes

Sheesh logical! You're getting more and more uncivil as we go along here. Very defensive and apparently intentionally "forgetting" what I have already told you. I haven't changed my mind, and you really do not know how much I have studied these things and thought about them....for longer than you've been alive.

am i uncivil to demand more intelligent replies rather than you just repeating your beliefs and opinions to my very specific questions?
Yes i don't know how much you have studied, i only know what you show in replies and i am not impressed wildtimes. I do not care if you disagree with me on every point, just give me a good arguement for it, that is not based on your uproven beliefs and i'l do the same. We can try to prove our beliefs with the arguements but not use them as facts to build an arguement.

reply to post by wildtimes

2)if my soul knows its wrong, who needs to learn it?? If my soul already knows what standard morality is, it is always ready to join the source just waiting to escape the prison.

"People make mistakes, use poor judgment, and need to learn. We have inbuilt feelings like 'guilt', 'shame', 'remorse,' 'regret' and self- recrimination. Religion often makes those feelings WORSE and then reinforces them with messages of unworthiness and failure. It's a vicious, self-perpetuating cycle."

that is not even anywhere close as an answer to my question!
Are you saying people don't listen to their soul who knows the right morals? So what entity is in control if not the soul?

reply to post by logical7


Are you implying that your soul is not your own? That it belongs to someone or something else? If so, the phrase "selling your soul to the devil" comes to mind.

reply to post by wildtimes

If my soul needs to learn like you said long back and if it can get tainted with immorality by my concious immoral decisions then something outside needs to record it to give customized karma lessons in this life or inrebirths,

"I don't agree. It's a built-in thing, and anyone raised by loving, careful parents will internalize those lessons. But they will STILL make mistakes out of passion, carelessness, or poor judgment. This world goes too fast for everyone to make careful, perfect decisions on their feet every moment of every situation. That's why PARENTING is so hard. Again, you won't understand that until you become a parent."

ah again that "you not a parent yet so you don't know as well as i do" card wildtimes!!

Don't split my reply and answer to parts that are supposed to be one whole arguement!

I am asking who keeps account of karma and dispenses it if soul can be corrupted.
Let me provide an explanation, "maybe soul is composed of an uncorrupted part that knows morals and a part that has free will and ability to learn and either obey the other part or not but ultimately the free part will realise that the other part was always right and till then the rebirth cycle continues. Once both parts are in harmony and resonance, the soul can joint the source"
there you go! My idea of God removed from your reincarnation theory.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

Are you implying that your soul is not your own? That it belongs to someone or something else? If so, the phrase "selling your soul to the devil" comes to mind.

NO
i was just making an example to get an answer.

This is what i think,
"I am the soul, i have a body." not the other way round.

Selling the soul to the devil means to not care or actively do things to destroy the soul at the demand of devil in return for benefits to the body in this lifetime.

reply to post by logical7


I'm pretty sure wild already answered your question about who keeps track of karma earlier in this thread.

Your own soul keeps track of it, and once you die you are given what you gave based on your own actions. I've only been half keeping up with the thread lately and I still remembered that part.

Also, how is someone going through rebirth not considered reincarnation? In fact, you just explained reincarnation to a tee! Good job, maybe you are learning something.

reply to post by logical7


Wouldn't praying be considered actively asking for things to benefit the body in this life? You can't honestly tell me you've never prayed to have a safe trip or not to die on said trip, can you? Oh, and praying before you eat is done because of the benefits that food gives to your body.

But I digress, I don't want to steer this conversation in a different direction than what it's currently on.

reply to post by logical7

ah again that "you not a parent yet so you don't know as well as i do" card wildtimes!!

And it's true, like it or not. Until you experience the profound, willing-to-die, do-anything feelings of a parent, you will not understand what "God as Father" is supposed to be reflective of. It just is what it is.
Sorry you don't believe me, but one day you'll find out, if you become a caring, loving parent.

reply to post by logical7

give me a good arguement for it, that is not based on your uproven beliefs and i'l do the same

I have.
It's your turn to 'prove' your beliefs (which you can't). My arguments are sound.

reply to post by logical7

I am asking who keeps account of karma and dispenses it if soul can be corrupted.
Let me provide an explanation, "maybe soul is composed of an uncorrupted part that knows morals and a part that has free will and ability to learn and either obey the other part or not but ultimately the free part will realise that the other part was always right and till then the rebirth cycle continues. Once both parts are in harmony and resonance, the soul can joint the source"
there you go! My idea of God removed from your reincarnation theory.

What?!
That's exactly what I've been saying, and it doesn't remove "God" from anything!

reply to post by wildtimes


I sense a retraction coming in the future.

reply to post by wildtimes

thats a very fairy tale belief but ok lets work with it.

Like "religion" isn't?

yes and i'l appreciate if you don't criticize religion for this things when you yourself have fairy tale beliefs.

Angels are not human beings. They never WERE human beings. WHY must you anthropomorphize EVERYTHING?

i never said angels are human beings.
You selected option "B" that angels do good by "choice" because they are morally evolved, so were they at a previous time less moral or immoral and moral mix like humans?
Or
you should have chosen "A" that they are intelligent beings but they can only be good and so don't have a choice.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i am certain because i have testimonials from expert witnesses like Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh and documents/scripture that make sense and answer all my questions.

NEITHER of those guys wrote ANYTHING down, EVER, so no, you don't have "testimonials" from them.
Which makes those documents arguable. And they are argued over every day all around the world.

i have recorded audio testimonial in the form of Qur'an that is still being transmitted the same way, but its actually not a testimonial, Muhammad pbuh was just the mouthpiece for Qur'an, Its God's Words just conveyed by him.

You believe in angels so do you believe the archangel Gabriel mentioned in scriptures is true? Can a angel communicate and teach humans scriptures, so that they advice and guide all people to be good?