Why should Immoral people change?

While having discussions here on ATS, I came up with this question and wanted to put it up to people in this section.

Immorality has caused and is causing a lot of damage, death and destruction, social wrongs, economic crises, environmental changes.

What will motivate immoral people to want to change towards better?

What can be a counter force to selfishness, greed, lust etc that works?

Originally posted by logical7
Immorality has caused and is causing a lot of damage, death and destruction, social wrongs, economic crises, environmental changes.

Can you define social wrongs for me? Give examples? What is a social "right" ?

I think the problem is the subjective nature of the concept of "morality/ amorality." What is unacceptable behavior for some, is acceptable for others. Morality is usually learned through cultural upbringing.

How can you make an immoral person change when not everybody even agrees on what's immoral?

Only an individual can decide if they want to change a behavior; not mob rule.

I think the best thing you can do is lead by example.

reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha

Can you define social wrongs for me? Give examples? What is a social "right" ?

you have pointed a big problem, no i will not define anything for you. What is "right" can be reached by thought experiments using the golden rule(do to others what you want to be done to you)

yes, in an immoral society, the approved immoralities appear ok but still people are breaking the golden rule, they just tolerate immoralities.
An extreme example can be, say a tribe practices child sacrifice, they let it happen till they get a child themselves but then it suddenly appears wrong but they are then forced and have to bear it.

The natural, immoral man cannot change for the better, unless God puts it into him to do so.

Many liberals as demonstrated in the first response play the ignorance game: "I don't know what moral is. There is no agreement to what that is and what is ghastly to you may be appropriate for me."

Incidentally, liberals have historically been the group who pointed out the ills of society and advocated for violent social upheaval so that justice could be established along with fraternity and socialism or communism to one extreme or another, and this is true for the last many centuries all the way up until May 1st (May Day) of this year.

This is what happens if you must bring the two thoughts together: Immorality is a part in a giant system that feeds itself and is predicated on each successive wheel finding success based off the success of the wheels coming prior to those successive wheels.

I can explain it more completely but I don't really want to right now because most of you look over everything I say and latch on to really some of the most stupid posts I've read on any forum ever, besides starring them into oblivion. Unless I am bothered into doing it if I see anyone even cares.

Do you want to see society move some substantial steps toward becoming a utopia or paradise? Then we will have to start addressing the many issues, among them immorality that have lead to the current condition, as it has direct implications for what comes after it.

What are you on about OP?

We are humans and not programmable robots. What is immoral for one is quite acceptable to the other. I have a sneaky feeling you find certain stuff immoral that I would not, just a gut feeling...

Very interesting OP, logical7.

I'll be sure to follow this one along..
S/F for your thought provoking idea. I don't have an answer for it, but I definitely want to see what others think.

You seem to be saying the bottom line is "Do Unto Others" (aka The Golden Rule). Does it work both ways, though?
Some might think that "an eye for an eye" is justice using that same rule - "Well, you acted this way to me, so I'm going to act that way to you." In other words "act like a jerk, get treated like a jerk."

I don't think it works properly in the negative that way. I know that many people DO feel revenge and like-for-like behavior is acceptable, though, and therein lies the problem. But the Golden Rule does NOT make it okay to payback immoral behavior with equally immoral behavior. In my opinion.

Other than that, that's all I have for now.

Many folks who want to make a moral change often find comfort in selfless service to others. I think this is one of the higher expressions of humankind; that and love, kindness, generosity, compassion and forgiveness of self and others.

reply to post by Witness123

Many liberals as demonstrated in the first response play the ignorance game: "I don't know what moral is. There is no agreement to what that is and what is ghastly to you may be appropriate for me."

Wow, Witness123. I do look over your posts, and sometimes I find myself in agreement with you. But when you start off with "Many liberals as demonstrated" you are already 'picking a fight,' and it leads me to believe you demonize all people who identify with them.

Not a fair start right out of the gate.

This isn't a partisan discussion, or a political one, in my opinion. It is a purely philosophical one.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Witness123

 

Many liberals as demonstrated in the first response play the ignorance game: "I don't know what moral is. There is no agreement to what that is and what is ghastly to you may be appropriate for me."

Wow, Witness123. I do look over your posts, and sometimes I find myself in agreement with you. But when you start off with "Many liberals as demonstrated" you are already 'picking a fight,' and it leads me to believe you demonize all people who identify with them.

Not a fair start right out of the gate.

This isn't a partisan discussion, or a political one, in my opinion. It is a purely philosophical one.

I don't mean to indicate people who vote for democrats or whatever! All I'm saying is the party of people who identify with some sort of subjective view of things and who argue for loose moral standards.

There is no sense to this amoral philosophy they advocate and to think it is Christians who argue with them! It is Christians themselves who are the amoralists!

reply to post by Witness123


Hmmmm...
okay, think I got what you mean. Go on, then, I'm listening...
I disagree with "liberal" meaning amoral or immoral, but I'll try to keep your definition in mind. You're talking about the "anything goes" thinking. Right?

reply to post by logical7


Explanation: Flagged!

Peace be upon you!

Oh ye of little faith!

Turn to Allah now and pray for guidance PLEASE!

WHY???

The immoral are Allahs devils sent to test the faithfulls faith.

You clearly have misplaced or lost your faith in the day of ressurection.

Jihad is PERSONAL ok!

It is a stuggle against the will of Allah! :shk:

If you find youself in Jihad ... YOU MUST TURN BACK AND FACE GOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH!

Personal Disclosure: And toss that stupid set of books away from you!

Mohammad, PBUH, didn't need it, read it or even write it ... SO WHY SHOULD YOU?

Please go pray ok!

Originally posted by logical7
While having discussions here on ATS, I came up with this question and wanted to put it up to people in this section.

Immorality has caused and is causing a lot of damage, death and destruction, social wrongs, economic crises, environmental changes.

What will motivate immoral people to want to change towards better?

What can be a counter force to selfishness, greed, lust etc that works?

I really don't think anything will motivate them. Immoral behavior has been around since Cain murdered Abel.

We're humans who have been affected by the nature to sin and do evil things to one another for any variety of reasons.

reply to post by logical7

What will motivate immoral people to want to change towards better?
What can be a counter force to selfishness, greed, lust etc that works?

An immoral person who keeps getting things his way will see no reason to change. Immorality becomes a way of life. He will not take the time to self reflect and question his ways.

If he feels its rewarding to be selfishness and greedy and lustful... then he will continue to do so.

reply to post by logical7

Originally posted by logical7
Immorality has caused and is causing a lot of damage, death and destruction, social wrongs, economic crises, environmental changes.

Actually, without knowing specifically what you mean by immorality, it's hard to answer your question.

Wars are immoral to me. They cause damage, death and destruction.
The fact that 1% of the people own 99% of the wealth in our country is immoral to me. That causes social wrongs and an economic crisis.
Polluting the air is immoral to me. That causes environmental changes.

Are these the moral actions and circumstances you're talking about? If not, can you be more specific about what immoral acts you're talking about?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Are these the moral actions and circumstances you're talking about?

Your statements of what is immoral resonate entirely with mine.

I hope the OP will address the question now that it's been put to him more than once.

I think hes basically saying... why can't we all just get along?

reply to post by Akragon


Well, he's offline now, but I'm fairly sure - because the discussion that prompted this thread was with me - that he's referring to the origins of morality.

He has asserted that without fear of God, a person can not be moral.

I disagree with him. I'll be very interested to see how the rest of ATS addresses his stance.

ETA:
(logical7, I trust you will correct me if I'm mistaken, my friend.)

It's pretty simple actually, people should stop being immoral because it's the right thing to do.

I'm guessing you are fishing for a particular answer? If god were needed for morality, you'd never see religious people killing one another and you'd only see atheists acting immoral. In my experience, the opposite is usually true. In fact, god has been one of the main justifications for people acting immoral throughout history.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

Well, he's offline now, but I'm fairly sure - because the discussion that prompted this thread was with me - that he's referring to the origins of morality.

He has asserted that without fear of God, a person can not be moral.

I disagree with him. I'll be very interested to see how the rest of ATS addresses his stance.

ETA:
(logical7, I trust you will correct me if I'm mistaken, my friend.)

edit on 5-5-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

sounds very OT to me...

Why do we need to fear God... isn't it said entity that gives life?