Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by logical7
grammatical errors? ...
Bring them here and i'l show you how they disappear with a little application of knowledge.

I notice that you didn't argue about the fact the Qu'ran has scientific and historical errors.
Have you finally accepted the truth of that fact?

As for the errors in syntax and grammer ... I refer you to the following scholars -
T.H. Huxley and the Science and Hebrew Tradition; Maxime Rodinson; Suyuti a Muslim philologist; Ali Dashti; Ignatz Goldziher; N.J. Dawood; Richard Bell; W.M. Watt; Arthur Jeffery; Charles Adams; Alfred Guillaume; T. Noldeke; William Henry Burr; Al-Suyuti (on abrogation); .... etc etc. That'll get you started. There are WAY too many to list here. The Qu'ran gets confused over and over as to who is supposedly talking ... god, muhammad, angels .... it's a mush. Those that made it up kept tripping over themselves. If it had come from God, those errors wouldn't be there.

You don't want to do it because vilifying Islam ...

Logical .. buddy .. I don't have to 'vilify Islam' .. Islam does that all on it's own.

reply to post by FlyersFan

The Qu'ran gets confused over and over as to who is supposedly talking ... god, muhammad, angels .... it's a mush. Those that made it up kept tripping over themselves.

you wouldn't say that if you knew classical arabic.
The change in person is a rhetorical device in arabic literature aimed at keeping the listeners attention completely focused.
Regarding the names you gave, i can give you names of scholars, muslims and non muslims who have studies Quran and accepted it as an uncomparable literature.
An article for you to read if you care to and then respond.www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/the-inimitable-quran/

i am including scientific errors, bring them here and watch them being explained only if you want to give an equal chance to the other side, otherwise its just better and easy to live in a self woven cocoon of opinions!

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

The Qu'ran gets confused over and over as to who is supposedly talking ... god, muhammad, angels .... it's a mush. Those that made it up kept tripping over themselves.

you wouldn't say that if you knew classical arabic.

Those scholars I quoted do indeed understand the Arabic. They give very good examples as to why the author of the Qur'an was human and obviously got confused. God wouldn't make such errors. Hey .. you want to buy into it ... go ahead.

But again on the topic of 'immoral' people changing ... since you haven't got something that comes direct from God then you haven't got leverage to tell people they have to change to adhere to it. Ya' know?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Since I don't really go with "revealed religion" - but I will listen to "seers"

seers were famous among pre-islamic pagan arabia, a time called as age of ignorance.
Good luck to get knowledge from them

You call it a time of ignorance .... that's funny considering that a lot of what Muhammad and the Qu'ran and Islam tries to sell is ignorance. The devil lives in a mans nose? Really?

Comeon Logical .. be logical ... even you must see the silly parts that are in Islam and that are supposedly wisdom from On High.

1st its not in Qur'an.
Its a hadith and its open to interpretation.
Muhammad pbuh also said that the devil flows in the body as blood flows.
Now science does not accept the existence of devils or angels but if they exist then who can say what they are etc.
You do believe in devils right? Jesus pbuh cast them out as written in NT.
Now how the devils in NT made a herd of pigs commit suicide? They must have affected their brain and hijacked and overpowered their survival instinct.
Upper part of nose is very close to fore brain.
I believe devils are jinns who are just energy which got consciousness just like us being matter having consciousness.
An energy can flow through human body or get localised somewhere.
The devil took Jesus pbuh on the temple so you do agree that what devil is and what powers it can have cannot be really know. right?

reply to post by FlyersFan

since you haven't got something that comes direct from God then you haven't got leverage to tell people they have to change to adhere to it. Ya' know?

that is still being debated. I know its from God but FF you have nothing from God, you deny OT and even parts of NT that are anti feminist. How can you deny a part of a scripture you believe as God's Word? You think secularism is what God wants? Where an immorality can be ok if 51 percent people say its ok??
Your morality says sex outside marriage is wrong yet you live at a place where it is expected and encouraged and ones who don't do it are actually seen as odd!
Your morality says exploitation is wrong yet your whole economy depends on exploiting labourers in 3rd world countries for cheaper production of goods.
Your morality says wasting is bad yet so much food and resources are wasted around you.

So do you admit that you live at an immoral place according to your own standard of morals?

Originally posted by logical7
I know its from God but FF you have nothing from God,

No. You THINK what you have is from God. But it obviously is not.

Where an immorality can be ok if 51 percent people say its ok??

Islam ... immoral and yet almost 100% go along with it ... either because they bought into it or out of fear if they try to leave or because Islamic countries don't allow any facts in that prove Islam wrong.

So do you admit that you live at an immoral place according to your own standard of morals?

There is immorality everywhere. (according to my standards) That's just the way it is.
I can't force people to adhere to my version of morality.
I can't prove my version is correct.
Just as you shouldn't be trying to make people adhere to yours.
You can't prove your version is correct.

reply to post by FlyersFan

N.J. Dawood;

Dawood, an Iraqi Jewish Scholar in his translation of the Qur'an comments on the sum effect of these and numerous other literary qualities of the Quran, describes it as a 'literary masterpiece': "The Koran is the earliest and by far the finest work of Classical Arabic prose... It is acknowledged that the Koran is not only one of the most influential books of prophetic literature but also a literary masterpiece in its own right... translations have, in my opinion, practically failed to convey both the meaning and the rhetorical grandeur of the original."

reply to post by FlyersFan

In my opinion, immoral people exist as teachers, to be an example of how not be.

Originally posted by Anuweh
In my opinion, immoral people exist as teachers, to be an example of how not be.

yes they can be used as lessons but
they cannot claim to be teachers themselves to justify their immorality.
Btw welcome to ATS

reply to post by logical7


in my opinion, crisis precipitates change