Why should Immoral people change?

reply to post by logical7

If i appear illogical then correct me as i maybe wrong or try and ask me before judging as i may have an answer.

You asked this of Akragon, so I won't presume to answer for him....
BUT, in my own voice - you have insisted that you are right and failed to adequately address the issues brought to you as rebuttal to your ideas of 'the West' and 'religion' and 'education' in general.

Are you going to provide sources for your 'allegations' about Paine, suicide, destruction of faith, etc.?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

What does that have to do with ANYTHING we are discussing?
We've already established that you blame 'the West', as well as Jews, Hindus, and 'colonists' for your plight.
You've refused to share your 'demographic' and 'educational' status -
and you've failed to refute that you are 'Wahhabi',

so, it's not hard to deduce that since you refuse to answer those questions, you are effectively admitting them as true.

i don't blame anyone unless they were responsible, i answered questions and mentioned the West, jews and hindus where they were involved. I hate anyone playing the victim and so wouldnt do it. I also hate oversimplification and blaming just muslims even for their own genocide! You didnt do it to that extreme but you did blame islam of situation in ME and that is completely wrong, try reading alternative history and non MSM news sources and get the bigger picture.

i have also not refuted that i am a terrorist, effectively making it true for you. Thanks

btw, i am a muslim and Qur'an forbids breaking up into sects, so i am a muslim and thats it.

You know almost nothing about different schools of jurisprudence in islam etc, so don't judge people from your MSM/internet crash course in Islam.

reply to post by logical7

btw, i am a muslim and Qur'an forbids breaking up into sects, so i am a muslim and thats it.

You know almost nothing about different schools of jurisprudence in islam etc, so don't judge people from your MSM/internet crash course in Islam.

I can't imagine how you could be more condescending than that.
Islam has a BUNCH of different sects.
Have a look at this wiki link and tell me that it's a lie.
Islamic schools and branches

> 4 Sunni Islam
4.1 Schools of jurisprudence
4.2 Schools of Theology
4.2.1 Textualist approach
4.2.2 Kalām
4.3 Movements
> 5 Shia Islam
5.1 Twelver
5.2 Ismailism
5.3 Zaidiyyah
5.4 Alawi
5.5 Alevi
> 6 Sufism
6.1 Bektashi
6.2 Chishti
6.3 Naqshbandi
6.4 Nimatullahi
6.5 Oveyssi (or Uwaiysi)
6.6 Qadiri
6.7 Suhrawardiyya
6.8 Muridiyya
6.9 Tijaniyya
6.10 Shadiliyya
> 7 Kharijite Islam
7.1 Ibadi
> 8 Ahmadiyya
8.1 Ahmadiyya Community
8.2 Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement
> 9 Quranism
9.1 Ahle Qur'an
9.2 Tolu-e-Islam
9.3 Submitters
> 10 Black Muslims
10.1 Moorish Science
10.2 Nation of Islam
10.3 Five Percenter
> 11 Smaller branches
11.1 Ahl-e Haqq
11.2 Mahdavism
11.3 Messiah Foundation International
11.4 Zikri
> 12 Related concepts
12.1 Islamism
12.2 Liberals
> 13 Related faiths

And here we have the 'schools of jurisprudence':

Madhhab is an Islamic term that refers to a school of thought or religious jurisprudence within Sunni Islam. Several of the Sahaba had a unique school of jurisprudence, but these schools were gradually consolidated or discarded so that there are currently four recognized schools. The differences between these schools of thought manifest in some practical and philosophical differences. Sunnis generally do not identify themselves with a particular school of thought, simply calling themselves "Sunnis," but the populations in certain regions will often - whether intentionally or unintentionally - follow the views of one school while respecting others.
Hanafi
The Hanafi school was founded by Abu Hanifa an-Nu‘man. It is followed by Muslims in the Levant, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Western Lower Egypt, Iraq, Turkey, the Balkans and by most of Russia's Muslim community. There are movements within this school such as Deobandis, and the Tablighi Jamaat , which are all concentrated in South Asia and in most parts of India.
Maliki
The Maliki school was founded by Malik ibn Anas. It is followed by Muslims in North Africa, West Africa, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, in parts of Saudi Arabia and in Upper Egypt. The Murabitun World Movement follows this school as well. In the past, it was also followed in parts of Europe under Islamic rule, particularly Islamic Spain and the Emirate of Sicily.
Shafi`i
The Shafi`i school was founded by Muhammad ibn Idris ash-Shafi`i. It is followed by Muslims in Eastern Lower Egypt, Somalia, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Philippines, Yemen, Kurdistan, Kerala (Mappilas) and is officially followed by the governments of Brunei and Malaysia.
Hanbali
The Hanbali school was founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal. It is followed by Muslims in Qatar, most of Saudi Arabia and minority communities in Syria and Iraq. The majority of the Salafist movement follows this school.
Ẓāhirī
The Ẓāhirī school was founded by Dawud al-Zahiri. It is followed by minority communites in Morocco and Pakistan. In the past, it also was also followed by the majority of Muslims in Mesopotamia, Portugal, the Balearic Islands, North Africa and parts of Spain.

So, then....you're Hanafi?
Deobandis, or Tablighi Jamaat?

reply to post by logical7


Well you're about to have an enlightening moment here...

When you're debating with someone... don't give him ammunition against your arguments..

IF someone was holding a gun to your head that had no bullets, would you offer him some ammo?

how can you not see that secular law is better then religious rules?

IF there is a person who killed their child in any circumstance, we deal with it, that person is tried, convicted and sentenced to jail... That means there would be 20 million people convicted of infanticide if that happened in the west...

Now since this happens in your country... what do your people do about it?

And you do know that link was from ABC news... which is MSM ... right?

reply to post by wildtimes

Are you going to provide sources for your 'allegations' about Paine, suicide, destruction of faith, etc.?

sure.
www.conservapedia.com/Atheism

After the publication of Paine's "Age of Reason" suicides increased.[203]

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Are you going to provide sources for your 'allegations' about Paine, suicide, destruction of faith, etc.?

sure.
www.conservapedia.com/Atheism

After the publication of Paine's "Age of Reason" suicides increased.[203]

You do know the writer of that article was speaking about 1894... right?

:shk:

reply to post by logical7

www.conservapedia.com/Atheism

"conservapedia"? Really?

Paine was not an "atheist". This is ridiculous. If you were a Westerner, you'd be a Glenn Beck fan, I bet.
What a shame.
Looked at the entire "link", and it's a bunch of right-wing LIES.
OMG.
wow

reply to post by wildtimes

So, then....you're Hanafi? Deobandis, or Tablighi Jamaat?

very honestly wildtimes i don't know, i agree with more than one school and if you know about them they all are correct, the founders of those major schools insisted that all others are correct.
They knew their religion and Qur'an

“And hold fast, all of you together, to
the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Quran),
and be not divided among
yourselves, and remember Allah's
Favour on you, for you were enemies
one to another but He joined your hearts together, so that, by His Grace,
you became brethren (in Islamic
Faith), and you were on the brink of
a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it.
Thus Allah makes His Ayat (proofs,
evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that
you may be guided.”

as a muslim my first source is Qur'an and maybe you will agree to my insisting that muslims should follow Islam more. Sects are formed due to egos causing disagreements, i want people to be united under the belief of One Creator and nobody superior to another by color, race, money etc.

reply to post by logical7

maybe you will agree to my insisting that muslims should follow Islam more. Sects are formed due to egos causing disagreements, i want people to be united under the belief of One Creator and nobody superior to another by color, race, money etc.

Okay, yes, I will agree to that.

You dismissing Paine as an Atheist (he was a Deist) "causing suicides" however, is really stretching it....and way beneath you according to what I had observed about you formerly.

reply to post by logical7

i agree with more than one school and if you know about them they all are correct, the founders of those major schools insisted that all others are correct.

Wait.

What?
No, they do not think that all others are "correct" - anymore than all the 40,000+ 'Christian' sects believe that they are "all correct."

The Sunni vs Shia thing is a huge problem. You canNOT deny that.
The Wahhabi thing is a disaster as well.

They are NOT all correct, if you are trying to say that Islam is all about peace and tolerance. It's VERY obvious that they are NOT 'all correct'.

reply to post by Akragon

When you're debating with someone... don't give him ammunition against your arguments.

i believe in saying what is right even if its ammo against my idea, if my idea/arguement is weak it should die.

If it survives it comes up stronger.

how can you not see that secular law

is better then religious rules? IF there is a person who killed their

child in any circumstance, we deal with

it, that person is tried, convicted and

sentenced to jail... That means there

would be 20 million people convicted

of infanticide if that happened in the west... Now since this happens in your

country... what do your people do

about it?

India is having secular law.



I appreciate west's equality and upholding rights in the justice system.



we are also drifting from the point, tell me is the belief in reincarnation responsible to give a push for infanticide? Will you blame it for the 10 million deaths?

You are right about karma, i am just showing how people can use a part of belief to justify their acts while the whole belief actually discourages and forbids it.

Same is with Islam.

Sadly the misunderstanding is so hammered in people, especially in west, that what i say appears shocking/ridiculous.

And you do know that link was from

ABC news... which is MSM ... right?

yes but i know it happens and MSM was quoting an official person. If you doubt, you should search for yourself.

A simple fact will clear it, government of India has made it a crime to reveal sex of the foetus to prevent abortions of female ones. The statistics of male female ratio is also a proof. In Haryana the ratio is lowest, 877 females per 1000 males, where are more than 120 girls per 1000 disappearing?



Things are being done to prevent it but again not the topic.

reply to post by logical7

A simple fact will clear it, government of India has made it a crime to reveal sex of the foetus to prevent abortions of female ones.

Preventing 'abortions' based on gender is a far cry from 'drowning baby girls in milk.'
You're right, though, it's off topic.

So......"why should immoral people change?"

I'm glad, though, that you're coming around to seeing how your views are seen as 'shocking/ridiculous'. Because where we come from, they are shocking and ridiculous.

reply to post by logical7

tell me is the belief in reincarnation responsible to give a push for infanticide? Will you blame it for the 10 million deaths?

I don't see how the belief in reincarnation could be responsible, unless the concept isn't understood in the first place...

Why would a parent force their child to be reincarnated... it is for people who haven't learned what they were put here to learn... Killing a child prevents that child from learning anything...

Again, reincarnation isn't something to look forward to... its not a good thing. Perhaps a little better then eternal hell fire, but its like starting your life over again... possibly in a worse position then you were in your previous life...

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

maybe you will agree to my insisting that muslims should follow Islam more. Sects are formed due to egos causing disagreements, i want people to be united under the belief of One Creator and nobody superior to another by color, race, money etc.

Okay, yes, I will agree to that.

You dismissing Paine as an Atheist (he was a Deist) "causing suicides" however, is really stretching it....and way beneath you according to what I had observed about you formerly.

i know Paine was a deist, i read his book partly, i did not blame him for suicides. I mentioned a minor side effect of his work as his ideas did shatter blind faith of some christians making them take an extreme step like suicide.
I mentioned it to let you know how it feels to hear allegations against someone you revere, that maybe untrue.
My point was faith is a comfort and should go with reason, the Creator who made reason and logic cannot be unreasonable or illogical.

reply to post by Akragon

Perhaps a little better then eternal hell fire, but its like starting your life over again..

I think it's more like 'continuing your life', and not really a bad thing.
A 'learning' sort of 'I passed grade 2!' thing....

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

Perhaps a little better then eternal hell fire, but its like starting your life over again..

I think it's more like 'continuing your life', and not really a bad thing.
A 'learning' sort of 'I passed grade 2!' thing....

Most consider it a good thing... but its usually because they've been taught most of their lives that Hell awaits a sinner...

It is not a good thing in my opinion... It means you failed in some way, and its only "starting your life over again" after you pass on in that next incarnation... All have a veil over their eyes at birth... only a few remember past lives... So its more like starting a new life, with certain conditions attached... which aren't always good

reply to post by logical7

i did not blame him for suicides.

YES! You DID!

I mentioned a minor side effect of his work as his ideas did shatter blind faith of some christians making them take an extreme step like suicide.

And that was productive to this conversation...how???

I mentioned it to let you know how it feels to hear allegations against someone you revere, that maybe untrue.

Oh. Okay.

Well, I don't 'revere' Thomas Paine the way Christians revere "Jesus" or Muslims revere "Muhammed." So that was a bit lame.

I think Paine made sense. And what or whomever gave us 'common sense' didn't want for people to be duped into things that are untrue. Like the multiple outrageously improbable OT stories, or the 'resurrection' or 'flying to heaven on a horse'.

And you should stop 'baiting' me. That's twice now you've admitted to just trying to annoy me. Third strike, you're out.

reply to post by Akragon


True, they aren't always 'good' situations to land in.
That's one of the reasons I think that as a collective, we need to see to the needs of EVERYONE, so that no matter WHERE we are born, we don't have to fear malnutrition, abuse, oppression, diseases, etc.

Still, I don't think ANY of us get it "right" in one go-round.
Impossible. In my thinking, anyway.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i agree with more than one school and if you know about them they all are correct, the founders of those major schools insisted that all others are correct.

Wait.

What?
No, they do not think that all others are "correct" - anymore than all the 40,000+ 'Christian' sects believe that they are "all correct."

The Sunni vs Shia thing is a huge problem. You canNOT deny that.
The Wahhabi thing is a disaster as well.

They are NOT all correct, if you are trying to say that Islam is all about peace and tolerance. It's VERY obvious that they are NOT 'all correct'.

Shia vs Sunni is a different issue.

Read what i said, following any Madahab(school) is fine/correct according to all the four scholars.

Anyone resorting to unrequired/oppressive violence is wrong.
Islam teaches this and majority muslims follow it.

reply to post by logical7

Shia vs Sunni is a different issue.

No, it's absolutely the 'issue'. I'm glad that you are apparently a pacifist and want everyone to follow the 'good things' about Islam, but the fact remains that LOTS of Muslims kill each other over this 'issue.'

I appreciate that you are not an extremist. I hear you saying that.

I also hear you acknowledging some of the benefits of 'western' and secular thinking.
That's cool.
Now we're getting somewhere more productive.