Why should Immoral people change?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

True, they aren't always 'good' situations to land in.
That's one of the reasons I think that as a collective, we need to see to the needs of EVERYONE, so that no matter WHERE we are born, we don't have to fear malnutrition, abuse, oppression, diseases, etc.

Still, I don't think ANY of us get it "right" in one go-round.
Impossible. In my thinking, anyway.

of course we don't get it right the first time... After thousands, perhaps even millions of incarnations through out time all of our learning has culminated to this incarnation... Jesus might have made it through the first time... but we only know what is written about him... and chances are considering his heart, he likely wanted to return a few times to wake people up to reality.

I've found that Christians seem to think reincarnation is this wonderful merry go round thing... where we die and are reborn with no purpose... but that idea is just wrong... IF one is reincarnated, it means either said person failed to learn what they needed to, or just didn't learn enough to progress...

I want to progress this time, this world is painful, and agonizing.... Luckily I know how to make the best of it... and if I have learned anything thus far... it is how to break that Karmic wheel...

Guess who taught me...

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

A simple fact will clear it, government of India has made it a crime to reveal sex of the foetus to prevent abortions of female ones.

Preventing 'abortions' based on gender is a far cry from 'drowning baby girls in milk.'
You're right, though, it's off topic.

So......"why should immoral people change?"

I'm glad, though, that you're coming around to seeing how your views are seen as 'shocking/ridiculous'. Because where we come from, they are shocking and ridiculous.

they need to fear hell when a thought to kill an infant passes through their head!

You are taking my statement out of context, you are shocked because you don't know Islam as much as i do.
You find ways to defend reincarnation but reasons to attack islam, why?
Can you for a day defend islam and if not then ask some deep question to yourself.

reply to post by Akragon

I want to progress this time, this world is painful, and agonizing.... Luckily I know how to make the best of it... and if I have learned anything thus far... it is how to break that Karmic wheel...

I hope you are right.

Yes, it is agonizingly painful.
And I, too, don't relish returning (anymore - I used to, but now, "no thanks, I'm done here").
I don't think it works that way though. Yeah, we can lose the karma stuff eventually....have you read the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'? It gives a really good explanation/nterpretation of the death process, reincarnation/karma, etc.

reply to post by wildtimes


Yup... heres my thread on it

The book of the dead

reply to post by logical7

Can you for a day defend islam

Only insofar as the Baha'i beliefs go.

and if not then ask some deep question to yourself.

What I see going on in your part of the world and in the Middle East does NOTHING to encourage 'defending Islam.' I know what Muslims here living in the West say, and I understand what you say, but once again, we are delving into the real-world facts of the ongoing slaughters, bombings, rocket-launches, and so on and so forth.....

When they (you) ALL stop with the in-fighting, and lay down your arms, your militant beliefs, your hatred and prejudice (against one another AND against the 'West', 'Jews', 'Hindus', 'colonists') then I will be more respectful and open about Islam.

Right now, though?
No. My deep question to myself is 'why are religions so violent and why do they hate each other so much?'/

reply to post by wildtimes

Like the multiple outrageously improbable OT stories, or the 'resurrection' or 'flying to heaven on a horse'.

reincarnation is equally outrageous, resurrection for Jesus pbuh can be simply suspended animation. There can be unknown creations, you believe in angels right?
This is what i find inconsistent with you belief.
Karma needs an intelligent active, aware Source.
If angels are guardians/protectors, who wants us to be guarded and against what?
How can reincarnation possible but resurrection outrageous?
How you are living your life on a belief that you are not certain of? What happens if you are wrong and you had refused to search other ideas because they clash with your way of upbringing which you till lately believed to be universal. Because you see what people do rather than what the belief says?
Do you think you will accept full responsibility of whatever comes?

reply to post by logical7

How you are living your life on a belief that you are not certain of? What happens if you are wrong and you had refused to search other ideas because they clash with your way of upbringing which you till lately believed to be universal.

Im actually wondering if you've asked yourself these same questions before imposing them on others...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

How you are living your life on a belief that you are not certain of? What happens if you are wrong and you had refused to search other ideas because they clash with your way of upbringing which you till lately believed to be universal.

Im actually wondering if you've asked yourself these same questions before imposing them on others...

I have been wondering that too.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

How you are living your life on a belief that you are not certain of? What happens if you are wrong and you had refused to search other ideas because they clash with your way of upbringing which you till lately believed to be universal.

Im actually wondering if you've asked yourself these same questions before imposing them on others...

well yes i have and i stand to lose nothing if i am wrong. I am in the safest boat
i believe in one God, i try my best to be truthful and honest, i try to treat my loved ones and everyone in general nicely. In short i try to be a muslim. I do it because God has made us to worship Him in all these ways.
I believe in Heaven,Hell and Judgement Day and try to keep my account clear of any wrong done against anyone or against God.

If not anything, i am on the same track as you, i don't want a rebirth, i don't even believe its true. I have more motivation to do the right things the first time and not come back

5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muúammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha

 

Can you define social wrongs for me? Give examples? What is a social "right" ?

you have pointed a big problem, no i will not define anything for you. What is "right" can be reached by thought experiments using the golden rule(do to others what you want to be done to you)

yes, in an immoral society, the approved immoralities appear ok but still people are breaking the golden rule, they just tolerate immoralities.
An extreme example can be, say a tribe practices child sacrifice, they let it happen till they get a child themselves but then it suddenly appears wrong but they are then forced and have to bear it.

Some people like to be subjected to pain, according to what you have provided as explanation, it still does not answer the question put by NB...

Å99

reply to post by wildtimes

I think Paine made sense. And what or
whomever gave us 'common sense'
didn't want for people to be duped
into things that are untrue.

Paine made some sense. Yes the Creator wants us to use reason.

Quran 16:90 Behold, God enjoins justice, and the doing of good and generosity towards (one's) fellow-men, and He forbids all that is shameful and all that runs counter to reason, as well as envy; (and) He exhorts you (repeatedly) so that you might bear (all this) in mind.

Quran verse 67:10 A sinner in Hell-fire will say: "Had
we but listened or used our
intelligence (or "reason" according
to M.Asad's translation), we should
not (now) be among the
Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

reason tells us there must be a Creator, reason also tells us that as we "do not know" but we must have a purpose as we have a Creator and that Creator should let us know what we are incapable to know otherwise because of our own limitations.
Qur'an 6:130
"O ye assembly
of Jinns and
men! came
there not unto
you messengers
from amongst you, setting
forth unto you
My signs, and
warning you of
the meeting of
this Day of yours?" They
will say: "We
bear witness
against
ourselves." It
was the life of this world that
deceived them.
So against
themselves will
they bear
witness that they rejected
Faith.

The creation itself is called signs/proof of God in Qur'an, which deists agree to and we are asked to watch dead dry land come alive and green after rain, can the God who made that possible cannot resurrect us?
Do you have a reasonable arguement against it?

Qur'an 75,
1. I swear by the Day of Resurrection;
2. And I swear by the self-reproaching person (a believer).
3. Does man (a disbeliever) think that We shall not assemble his bones?
4. Yes, We are Able to put together in perfect order the tips of his fingers.

Btw, Fingerprints are a recent discovery.

Qur'an asks the reader to examine itself critically and then make an opinion, not blindly believe.

But if it makes sense and yet a person chooses to ignore/deny it then its intellectual dishonesty and then the person is completely accountable for his/her choice.

Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
I think the problem is the subjective nature of the concept of "morality/ amorality."

Yep. What NarcolepticBuddha said

Originally posted by Hecate666
What is immoral for one is quite acceptable to the other.

Yep .. what Hectate666 said.


Muslims who practice Sharia law think it's immoral for a woman to not cover her head, or for her to leave the house without a male family member escort. Some even think it's immoral for a young girl to go to school so they shoot her in the head to try to kill her.

I think that those who practice Sharia law and extreme Islam like that are the ones who are immoral.

Hardcore Catholics think that it's immoral to use a condom or to take a birth control pill. They think it's against God's will (Onanism) and that people will go to hell if they act responsibly when it comes to the number of children they are having.

I think that those who pop out baby after baby in an already crowded world are the ones who are immoral.

Some fundamentalist Christians think it's immoral for a black person and a white person to be married and/or to have children. (thats both black and white hardcore fundamentalists)

I think that those who interfere with others who are in love like that are the immoral ones.

Neo-Nazis and certain 'black power' groups think that the races shouldn't mix and that those who .. um .. canoodle ... outside their own race are immoral.

I think that those who think that way are immoral.

To to answer the question of the OP - 'Why Should Immoral People Change?"
The answer is ... it is too hard to define what 'immoral' is to be able to answer the question.
And no one has any business pushing their silly versions of 'morality' onto others.
Certain laws have to be followed that could be considered 'moral laws' ... such as
'do not steal' and 'do not murder' .. but those are common sense laws that are used
to keep society civilized and running smoothly.

Originally posted by Akragon
IF one is reincarnated, it means either said person failed to learn what they needed to, or just didn't learn enough to progress...

I hope to NEVER EVER be reincarnated into a physical body again.
I have some past life memories from WWII ... being a child who dies in the London Blitz.
So I do believe that it is possible that at least some of us are reincarnated.
But I really really really don't want to have to come back again ....

Originally posted by wildtimes
....have you read the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'? It gives a really good explanation/nterpretation of the death process, reincarnation/karma, etc.

Oh .. you just tickled my brain! I read that a long long time ago but I've forgotten a lot of it. I should go dust that off and take another look. Thanks for the reminder.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I think that those who practice Sharia law and extreme Islam like that are the ones who are immoral.

how you bundle Sharia and extremism together? Is the whole muslim world extreme because they want Sharia?
I support Sharia law but my idea and majority muslim idea about it is not that same Sharia of which you are scared.
Jesus pbuh followed his own Sharia (Judaic laws) and he would return and implement it. I can't imagine him proposing bills in parliament and hoping to get majority approval!

And no one has any business pushing their silly versions of 'morality' onto others.

you yourself are having a relative morality and can't know if its completely harmless to society and others because the effects are not so directly visible.
Jesus pbuh taught morality and its a good standard. The more people drift, the more immoral they are.
Jesus pbuh warned of an age when a womb that doesnt bear a child will be praised, and you call poping a lot of babies as immoral!
Thats because you are influenced by malthusian economic theory which is responsible for wars and stealing resources and depopulation etc. The idea that there is not enough.
Jesus pbuh taught the opposite by words and by feeding thousands with few loaves and fishes.

Originally posted by logical7
how you bundle Sharia and extremism together? Is the whole muslim world extreme because they want Sharia?

As far as I'm concerned .. anyone who wants Sharia is immoral.
Sharia is bad for women. (and downright misogynistic) Therefore, it's immoral.

I support Sharia law ...

Then, in my opinion, you are immoral. So when are YOU going to change??

Get it now? What YOU consider to be 'immoral' isn't what others consider to be 'immoral'. And what I consider to be 'immoral' isn't what you consider to be 'immoral'. So to answer the question of your thread is impossible because no one knows for sure exactly what all is moral and immoral. And there is no reason for anyone to 'change' to fit YOUR version of 'moral' .. anymore than there is a reason for you to change to fit MY version of 'moral'.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
how you bundle Sharia and extremism together? Is the whole muslim world extreme because they want Sharia?

As far as I'm concerned .. anyone who wants Sharia is immoral.
Sharia is bad for women. (and downright misogynistic) Therefore, it's immoral.

I support Sharia law ...

Then, in my opinion, you are immoral. So when are YOU going to change??

Get it now? What YOU consider to be 'immoral' isn't what others consider to be 'immoral'. And what I consider to be 'immoral' isn't what you consider to be 'immoral'. So to answer the question of your thread is impossible because no one knows for sure exactly what all is moral and immoral. And there is no reason for anyone to 'change' to fit YOUR version of 'moral' .. anymore than there is a reason for you to change to fit MY version of 'moral'.

yet God kept sending prophets including Jesus pbuh to bring back people to morality, so God does have a morality standard. That springs from the Golden rule.
We all should follow that. Do you agree? You believe in God right?

Originally posted by logical7
so God does have a morality standard.

GOD has one. He knows what it is. But people on earth can't agree on what it is. So it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell people to change and be 'moral' when in fact we do not have an agreed set of 'moral' standards and we don't know what God wants.

That springs from the Golden rule. We all should follow that.

The Golden Rule. Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you? And you think we should follow that? Okay .. then by that standard you should give up your rights to leave home without a family member escort .. and you should give up your rights to be heard equally in a court of law ... and you should have to cover youself from head to toe in robes .. and you should have to submit in a subservient manner to your spouse ... you should have to give up most of your rights to inheritence .... afterall, that is how the Sharia that you call for treats women and so that must be how you want to be treated.

You believe in God right?

Yep. But your Sharia doesn't reflect what God wants or His morality so there is no reason for anyone to 'change' to fit that.

Again .. what you call 'moral' is 'immoral' to others.
And what you call 'immora'l is 'moral' to others as well.
So ... your question can't be answered.

reply to post by FlyersFan

GOD has one. He knows what it is. But people on earth can't agree on what it is. So it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell people to change and be 'moral' when in fact we do not have an agreed set of 'moral' standards and we don't know what God wants.

yes God has one and He sent messengers to every people to remind them, so saying that we don't know what God wants is wrong. Just follow teachings of Jesus pbuh.

The Golden Rule. Do unto others as
you'd have them do unto you? And
you think we should follow that?
Okay .. then by that standard you
should give up your rights to leave
home without a family member escort .. and you should give up your
rights to be heard equally in a court of
law ... and you should have to cover
youself from head to toe in robes ..
and you should have to submit in a
subservient manner to your spouse ... you should have to give up most of
your rights to inheritence .... afterall,
that is how the Sharia that you call for
treats women and so that must be
how you want to be treated.

yes the golden rule, i treat and respect other women as i want my mother,sister,wife and daughter to be treated.
A woman behaves with a man like she wants another woman to behave with her husband.
Men and women are both required to be modest in conduct and dressing.
You calling for equal inheritance also implies that women work and contribute equally. Being a mother is a full time job, you also want to earn and provide, neglected kids grow up into more immoral people!
Lets ask women what they prefer, half inheritance with no financial responsibility or equal with equal responsibilities, the later is what i want for her as a man but i obey God and take a deal that favours women.

Originally posted by logical7
yes God has one and He sent messengers to every people to remind them, so saying that we don't know what God wants is wrong.

Um .. no. There are a lot of people who CLAIM to be speaking for God. But they all contradict each other. And then people go adding their own interpretations and extremisms. And so you have 6 billion people in the world and each of them has a different idea what 'immoral' is. So no ... we do NOT know what God wants. We only know what people here CLAIM He wants.

i treat and respect other women as i want my mother,sister,wife and daughter to be treated.

Seeing what you think of women .. that makes me sad for them.
2nd class citizens ... being kept down and forced to be depending on men.
Very sad.

Men and women are both required to be modest in conduct and dressing.

According to YOUR version of 'morality'. The Iranian morals police go around beating up women who don't dress according to their version of morality .. and those idiot police think they are acting morally when in fact they are immoral misogynistic sickos.

You calling for equal inheritance also implies that women work and contribute equally.

Equal inheritance has nothing to do with how much a person earns or doesn't earn. People contribute to the family differently and what is inherited should have nothing to do with income levels. Women should be allowed to remain single and unmarried if they wish. Your version of 'morality' when it comes to inheritance is immoral.

Lets ask women what they prefer, half inheritance with no financial responsibility or equal with equal responsibilities,

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Women can work equally .. can inherit equally .. can stay home with the kids and take care of the family which is a MAJOR job and in which she shouldn't be penalized in regards to inheritance for .... women should be able to remain single and shouldn't have to get married just to get along in life ... etcetc Again .. your version of 'morality' is immoral.

the later is what i want for her as a man

It should be none of your business and gender should be irrelevant when it comes to inheritance.

but i obey God and take a deal that favours women.

No. You are obeying the words of some guy who lived in the 600s and CLAIMED to be speaking for God ... but who offered no proof and whose authenticity is highly questionable at best. Not to mention the fact that his version of 'morality' is really immoral.


Again ... 'morality' and 'immorality' based on alleged 'prophets of God' ... that leaves 'morality and 'immorality' questionable. No one knows.