Iran’s cutting-edge Fighter a hoax, critics claim

think kamikaze.

i doubt it has much purpose other than one way attacks on CVBGs, it would not need to carry much fuel, and a reduced signature with numbers would be adequate, combined with land based silkworms, an indigenous ASBM, a super fast torpedo launched from a kamikaze sub, you start to have an area denial capability, how many mines do they have again?

reply to post by Strainz


There is a big difference between engineering and attitude problems.

BP didnt loos its rig do to poor engineering. They lost the rig do to poor attitude and managment.

Originally posted by southseasavage
think kamikaze.

i doubt it has much purpose other than one way attacks on CVBGs, it would not need to carry much fuel, and a reduced signature with numbers would be adequate, combined with land based silkworms, an indigenous ASBM, a super fast torpedo launched from a kamikaze sub, you start to have an area denial capability, how many mines do they have again?

If Iran is building their jet based on this mock up. They sure aint thinking kamikazi. They are thinking attack and survive capability.

Since this is just a mock up. No one realy know the real mesurements and capasity of the production model.
So there is no way anyone of us can say that this is going to be short or medium range, or low altitude fighter.

Originally posted by golemina
reply to post by Daedalus

 

or check out the F-104 that we used for a long time..it had REALLY tiny wings...

oh here, here's another page ALL ABOUT trainer aircraft, some of which are just training versions of actual fighter aircraft....tiny wings, and a small airframe do not necessarily mean fakery, or an inability to perform in combat..

Yeah! So there...

Reality was...

Sexy looking bird, but kind of a deathtrap...

The F-104 was notoriously unstable...

indeed...but the fact remains it was a real plane, and it flew, and we used it for a whole bunch of years..

and look at the wings on some of those trainers...especially the smaller ones...

I'm just saying the people who are saying it's fake because it has a small airframe, or small wings, are silly....

if it were as aerodynamically unstable as they are implying, the model wouldn't fly either..

Originally posted by Daedalus

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
reply to post by cass1dy09

 

Iranians are smart, their culture is long lived and they designed algebra, assuming they are unable to break design concepts with new and improved is flawed, it can happen!

If they have such a long lived culture and designed algebra then why aern't they leading the Aerospace industry? Just curious.

Economic sanctions imposed by the U.S.?

How long ago were the economic sanctions imposed? They had all the time and money even before the sanctions. Just look at the nuclear power plants and the infrastructure development. So why not aerospace development (civilian/military).

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
Originally posted by golemina

Seeing as Zaphod is not here....I'll have a piece of you.
First..it is a three quarter scale Mock-up.
Second...Iran has it's own Military Industrial Complex.
Third..Stealth come in four flavors...Profile...skin material....paint...and plasma.
Fourth...Iran has access to all four technologies.
Fifth...what kind of fool would ruin the whole point of stealth by attaching external tanks and ordnance ?? hmmm ?? by definition these things have to be carried internally.
Six...A mock-up is exactly how the Iranians rolled it out...at no point have they said it was a production bomber.
Seven...J'ai Peur ?? Your afraid ?? well they do say Hubris and Bravado is a sign of insecurity...and your post is full of it.

edit on 5-2-2013 by Cosmic4life because: (no reason given)

How much time do you think it takes to study, design and develop a prototype, machine and tooling setup, raw materials/components supply chain establishment before manufacturing begins? Your knowledge might be impressive about aircrafts but lets look at the reality of building, supporting and fielding a basic aircraft let alone a 4th/5th gen aircraft. Surely there are several prototypes built by several countries around the world. How many of them make it to the production line is the question. Its definitely strikes a note within the ME nations and certain Iranian voters but thats about it. Below is a link which might help steer the conversation into a positive direction for this thread.
Why_Does_It_Cost_So_Much

reply to post by Zaphod58


Oh Ive seen the A.S.S. on these forums. Id like to use that if you dont mind

People are underestimating their "enemy", which can lead to disasterous outcomes if ever on the battle field.

Probably a good thing these people are only arm-chair commanders, though.

considering Iran's limited budget and sanctions (compared to bloated US), i think it is quite the amazing feet to bring out own fighter jet design.

congrats iran!

reply to post by Daedalus

indeed...but the fact remains it was a real plane, and it flew, and we used it for a whole bunch of years..

and look at the wings on some of those trainers...especially the smaller ones...

I'm just saying the people who are saying it's fake because it has a small airframe, or small wings, are silly....

if it were as aerodynamically unstable as they are implying, the model wouldn't fly either..

I think you are ENTIRELY missing the point...

(golem passes hand over head)



The F-104 was notoriously UNSTABLE... Especially in stress situations.

Look at the planes that replaced it...

With the CURRENT state of avionics and advanced airflow testing...

There is NO way the design elements used in the F-104 would be incorporated into todays aircraft!

Next argument.

BTW. The model they are flying is NOT the same configuration as the 'mockup' of the Death to the Infidel-313! It more closely resembles the somewhat bad ass drawing referred to by others in this thread.

reply to post by golemina


This is my last reply to you as you are clearly trolling and doing a better job of ridiculing yourself than I can be bothered to.

As a precision engineer that has worked in Aviation and some-one who has lived in the Persian Gulf region...I think I have better contacts and a better grip on the situation than you.

Do you seriously believe Iran does not have CNC Milling and Turning machines ? or Autoclaves ? or Computers ? or Universities full of technical students etc etc etc.

Your statements are not satire...they are moronic.

And yes ... you are a classic A.S.S.

..the nurse will be along with your medication shortly.

C...

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by golemina

 

This is my last reply to you as you are clearly trolling and doing a better job of ridiculing yourself than I can be bothered to.

As a precision engineer that has worked in Aviation and some-one who has lived in the Persian Gulf region...I think I have better contacts and a better grip on the situation than you.

Do you seriously believe Iran does not have CNC Milling and Turning machines ? or Autoclaves ? or Computers ? or Universities full of technical students etc etc etc.

Your statements are not satire...they are moronic.

And yes ... you are a classic A.S.S.

..the nurse will be along with your medication shortly.

C...

Dude... TRY to keep it friendly.

I've always found that people that play the 'troll' card... are pretty much running on empty in terms of the substance of their arguments.

Speaking of which...

With all of the 'advanced techology' contained within...

As a precision engineer that has worked in Aviation and some-one who has lived in the Persian Gulf region...I think I have better contacts and a better grip on the situation than you.

Do you seriously believe Iran does not have CNC Milling and Turning machines ? or Autoclaves ? or Computers ? or Universities full of technical students etc etc etc.

...you are SERIOUSLY out of your depth in this discussion.

Congratulations! You have the technology to build a home robot to vacuum the dust off your carpet... (Provided you don't have any teenagers! )

The dirty little secret in the construction of state of the art aircraft... is that the REAL technology is the PROCESS of actual fabrication...

Shhhh!

It's a secret.

This topic consists of the following:

"LOL Iran made it and Israel badmouthed it, it must suck."

"Iran is incapable of making an aircraft."

"Fine, so Iran can make an aircraft, but they still suck compared to the rest of the world."




People talking about this being the Iran propaganda machine, but it seems to be that the US and Israeli propaganda machine is working in full force with most people.

Love all the banter in this thread, so silly. Military aviation has been my hobby for close to 4 decades and in my time in the Navy I got to see some exciting planes first hand.

Anyway to the point.

Its just a mock up and I have to give it to the Iranians for creating a fun looking psuedo machine. We could debate its intented combat role and flight charactaristics but whats the point? a Spiderman vs Batman discussion probably has more fact behind it then this plane. The Iranians have a HUGE inferiority complex and as much as they say they hate the west they sure covet our power, so I say let them parade their fiberglass mockups as much as they like, it doesn't say as much about the state of their aviation as it does about their wish list to Santa Claus.

Like that flying saucer they were building.....

Originally posted by golemina

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
reply to post by golemina

 

This is my last reply to you as you are clearly trolling and doing a better job of ridiculing yourself than I can be bothered to.

As a precision engineer that has worked in Aviation and some-one who has lived in the Persian Gulf region...I think I have better contacts and a better grip on the situation than you.

Do you seriously believe Iran does not have CNC Milling and Turning machines ? or Autoclaves ? or Computers ? or Universities full of technical students etc etc etc.

Your statements are not satire...they are moronic.

And yes ... you are a classic A.S.S.

..the nurse will be along with your medication shortly.

C...

Dude... TRY to keep it friendly.

I've always found that people that play the 'troll' card... are pretty much running on empty in terms of the substance of their arguments.

Speaking of which...

With all of the 'advanced techology' contained within...

As a precision engineer that has worked in Aviation and some-one who has lived in the Persian Gulf region...I think I have better contacts and a better grip on the situation than you.

Do you seriously believe Iran does not have CNC Milling and Turning machines ? or Autoclaves ? or Computers ? or Universities full of technical students etc etc etc.

...you are SERIOUSLY out of your depth in this discussion.

Congratulations! You have the technology to build a home robot to vacuum the dust off your carpet... (Provided you don't have any teenagers!

)

The dirty little secret in the construction of state of the art aircraft... is that the REAL technology is the PROCESS of actual fabrication...

Shhhh!

It's a secret.

The real technology is the process of actual fabrication....erm what..you mean the actual process that I'm occasionally employed in....do tell...can't wait for some nuggets of gold from a joker that says I'm seriously out of my depth.

Yeah right whatever..

Like the F-35 .... Overpriced...Overdue....Over budget...and Over rated......and with a list of faults as long as your arm.

Back in the day...Kelly Johnson built a jet Fighter from scratch in 143 days.....it was his process that created the A-12..designed in 1960..first flew in 1962....the SR-71.designed in 1962...first flew in 1964.

Ben Rich carried Kelly Johnson's process forward to produce the F-117a again in record time..

Today there are no Kelly Johnsons or Ben Rich's at places like Lockheed....what you get is a bloated Corporation ripping off Customers with claims it cannot meet....

If Kelly Johnson could do it back in the early 60's ... it's pretty clear the Iranians can do it today..with modern computers and modern machinery...all they have to do is follow the Johnson process.

The A-12/SR-71/YF-12 were created on a piece of paper with a slide rule.....the F-117A was created on a computer with less power than my Mobile Phone.

This is very definitely my last response to you....it should be clear to everyone who knows at least something of Aviation and Aircraft Construction that it is you who knows nothing.

C...

Originally posted by golemina
reply to post by Daedalus

 

indeed...but the fact remains it was a real plane, and it flew, and we used it for a whole bunch of years..

and look at the wings on some of those trainers...especially the smaller ones...

I'm just saying the people who are saying it's fake because it has a small airframe, or small wings, are silly....

if it were as aerodynamically unstable as they are implying, the model wouldn't fly either..

I think you are ENTIRELY missing the point...

(golem passes hand over head)

The F-104 was notoriously UNSTABLE... Especially in stress situations.

Look at the planes that replaced it...

With the CURRENT state of avionics and advanced airflow testing...

There is NO way the design elements used in the F-104 would be incorporated into todays aircraft!

Next argument.

BTW. The model they are flying is NOT the same configuration as the 'mockup' of the Death to the Infidel-313! It more closely resembles the somewhat bad ass drawing referred to by others in this thread.

edit on 5-2-2013 by golemina because: Added the BTW.

you tell cosmic to try and keep it friendly, right after implying that i'm an airhead, or in some way mentally inferior to you....that's what we in the industry call a hypocrite..

i didn't say design elements from the 104 were being used, i simply sited it as an example of the fact that yes, a plane with tiny wings CAN fly....and the 104 was unstable because the tiny wings were on such a large body..aerodynamics is kind of a bitch that way...

i think it was you who entirely missed the point..

PS: yeah, the model was the same configuration as the mockup...look harder..

most of Iran's fighters were american fighters especially F series. because of military sanctions they should have find ways to maintain their fighters ready. so gradually they became very experienced with reverse engineering of aerospace technology. when USA retired F-4 fighters, Iran had to made needed parts itself. and they are still flying in Iran but with modifications and new names ! this is also true about F-14 and others.
they can reach Russian technology more easily but they are always interested in american technology. this is maybe because of their experience of F_series fighters against a collection of other technologies in their war with Saddam. and they named their new fighter as F 313. when they reach a high tech drone (eg. RQ170) the first thing which comes to their mind is just lets exploring it !

As soon as I saw the flying 'prototype' I could tell it was a scale model. Also, the display is clearly a fiberglass mockup!
They (Iran) is using any aircraft they can get their hands on including some obsolete US aircraft that was sold to them prior to the Islamic takeover. I understand since we won't sell them parts they have cannibalized most of them to keep the few remaining in the air.
A small-minded regime trying to act like one of the 'BIG BOYS!'

reply to post by golemina


First off, it wasn't my acronym to begin with. I simply chose to use it, because it's true.

Secondly, I am an American. I have no problem with Americans whatsoever. But if you want to keep telling me all about how I do, then you go right ahead. When people sit here telling me all about how the Iranians or any other military can't hurt the US, and we can take them in a fight without even breaking a sweat, then I'm going to sit here and call BS on them. If you had bothered to read the thread, instead of cherry picking, you would see all that being said. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would have seen where more than one person has said that this is a mock up, and everyone else that builds planes does the exact same thing with mock ups. But you go right ahead telling me how I hate Americans and whatever else you want to.

Third, when did I say that *you* said that? Show me where I said specifically that you said it. Show me once. You can't, because I didn't say that you were the one saying it did I. I said "people', so unless you're all those other people saying how the US military is going to kick everyone's ass without losing any equipment, I wasn't talking about you, was I.

reply to post by golemina


ALL current fighters are unstable as hell. That's how they get so maneuverable. The F-117 was called the Wobblin Goblin because if they lost any part of the flight control computer it would tuck and tumble. The F-16 was one of the first to be deliberately built unstable. There isn't a current fighter out there that can fly if the flight control computer goes out, because that's the only thing keeping them stable.

It's called relaxed stability. By making it less stable, then smaller control inputs are required to maneuver the aircraft. A positively stable aircraft, like most commercial aircraft, will maintain straight and level flight once it's trimmed. A relaxed stability aircraft has to be actively flown at all times. You can trim it to help, but you have to keep a much closer eye on it than a positively stable aircraft.