Iran’s cutting-edge Fighter a hoax, critics claim

reply to post by amkia


You have to be able to get to Iron Dome. While you're trying to attack it, what's the rest of the IAF doing, sitting on their thumbs? Cowering in fear? Not to mention that Iron Dome itself is an anti-aircraft platform, capable of hitting targets up to 32,000 feet.

You are putting way too much effectiveness into the Arab world air forces. Yes they are good, but they'd have to coordinate on a level they never have before, and you don't just throw together a force and have that kind of coordination. It takes a lot of practice, and a lot of flying time. Most countries don't get even half of what the IAF gets in a year. That is going to show in actual combat.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by amkia

 

You have to be able to get to Iron Dome. While you're trying to attack it, what's the rest of the IAF doing, sitting on their thumbs? Cowering in fear? Not to mention that Iron Dome itself is an anti-aircraft platform, capable of hitting targets up to 32,000 feet.

You are putting way too much effectiveness into the Arab world air forces. Yes they are good, but they'd have to coordinate on a level they never have before, and you don't just throw together a force and have that kind of coordination. It takes a lot of practice, and a lot of flying time. Most countries don't get even half of what the IAF gets in a year. That is going to show in actual combat.

Didn’t talk about the Arab world and their military mate, I don’t know about their military capabilities but I know about Iranians.

Iranians are not Arab.

reply to post by amkia


I know they aren't, but they don't have the capabilities to hit Israel with anything but missiles. They would have to have tankers to get any kind of airstrike to Israel, and the IrAF has a very limited tanker fleet, as well as limited training with tankers. A number of their aircraft don't even have in flight refueling capability. So if you're going to talk about a massive coordinated strike on Israel, then you're going to have to involve the rest of the Arab nations to do it. Iran simply doesn't have the capability to do it. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of not having the capability.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Iron Dome is a farce. It is at best 50 % effective. Antiballistic missile systems provide a false sense of security. Israel doesn't have enough of the iron dome system to provide protection for the whole country. They could only protect the most built up areas. Even then, some of the missiles got through the last time. What happens when a lot of missiles are actually launched? The patriot was very ineffective in the first gulf war. All that network coverage showing interceptions was actually showing failure. The missile bodies were being intercepted leaving the warheads to successfully impact the ground. Of course that system has been upgraded. The missiles that ABM systems are designed to intercept have been upgraded as well. Militaries like to hype the success of their weapons tests.

reply to post by Adaluncatif


It doesn't have to be 100% effective. Even at 50% effectiveness it will still keep at least one airfield open and operating. That's all they need. Or they scatter their forces to smaller airstrips they have around. But even if Iron Dome doesn't stop everything, if it keeps one airfield open and operating, then the IAF is still a potent force.

reply to post by neformore


As I have addressed in a similar topic about the Chinese and other nations subs that appeared to have broken into Carrier Group defenses...were allowed to do so as to provide the Navy an excuse to ask for monies and the weapons programs that such moneies were to pay for that were schedualed to be cut from the Navy's budget to be restored....as the Navy cried out...WE ARE VULNERABLE!

Since a U.S. Carrier Group...which represents Multiple Billions of Dollars of Taxpayer money is protected by a muti-leveled integrated system of Satellite Detection that includes the capability by Ground and Ocean penetrating Radar which can see to the sea floor as well as see hidden underground enemy weapons.

Other levels are the Aegis Cruisers SM-3 ABM ASAT AAM's which are the most accurate, Gighest Velocity and Longest Range on Earth.

Carrier Groups have multiple Subs that are in defensive posture around such groups as well as a few are locted in advance and behind in all directions of a Carrier Group as they will be tracking any enemy sub activities.

Add to this a Carrier Groups AWAC Aircraft and Electronic Warfare Aircraft as well as support by the Inter-service Integrated Detection Grid which incorporates all data from all services monitering stations and platforms...and a Carrier Group is a very well protected group of ships.

Since the Navy Subs such as the Los Angeles class as well as the Virginia class...which were built instead of the very expensive Seawolf...are capable of detecting and tracking the most quiet and stealthy Russian Subs....the possibility that some very loud Chinese or other various sub possesing nations Subs could penetrate U.S. Carrier Group defenses is extremely low.

Split Infinity

reply to post by spy66


I agree COMPLETELY.

Carrier Defense has increased dramatically since the early 90's as many nations have developed weapon systems of greater lethality. They have MUCH better trained crews now.

Split Infinity

reply to post by maes2


You are correct as standard Carrier Tactics are to stay outside of Enemy Range as a Carrier launched aircraft and cruise missiles can strike from much greater distances.

Split Infinity

reply to post by Darkphoenix77


It is not pride.

Some here have mistaken it as so as they confuse the difference between a Carrier Group making a mistake by which they have ALLOWED themselves to be placed in a situation that could cause an enemy to perform a sucessful attack.

Such conditions for this would be a Carrier being too close to enemy shores that would allow little time to react to missile attack or close enough for an enemy to have the range ability of it's aircraft to strike a carrier such as U.S. Carrier Aircraft have much longer range and can strike the Enemy and return where as the enemy could attemped a strike but could not return as well as having to travel too far and for too long as to give a Carrier group ample time to prepare.

As far as an Enemy Sub...FORGET IT! I KNOW that the last few times a Carrier Group had another nations sub just pop up in the groups perimeter...this was by design. NO WAY is a Virginia Class group of subs which are on Group Defense going to allow this to happen unless they chose to.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


And....?

They're not invulnerable. Nothing is.

You may believe subs were "allowed" to get near to the carrier's. I say that's hogwash. Anyone in Navy who claimed it was doing so to save their own ass.

Most people would have told you that an air attack against the Conus was impossible prior to 9/11.

3,000 lives say otherwise. The subsequent conspiracy theories developed by people to explain the shortfall in reactions suggest that people still think it.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by yuppa

 

No, but when a Chinese sub pops up within torpedo range of a carrier, and no one knew it was there, that's a different story. Along with the US leasing a Swedish (I think it was Swedish) SSK and not finding it once, when they had it in their use for a year or two. Diesel boats are the hardest things in the world to find when they're in blue water, unless they have to snorkel, which they have to do very very rarely now with a modern boat. The new ones running on batteries are much quieter than even an ultra quiet nuke boat. When you get into the Gulf, and into shallow water, passive and active sonar is degraded severely due to the shallow waters, and the terrain on the bottom. They'd be lucky to detect a nuke boat running full out with bad pumps under the right conditions.

True, the Us had to lend the Swedish sub, because it sank the carrier fleet time after time.

The drilles were conducted of the east coast. 2 or 3 years ago.

I have heard that it was not just the sub that was stealthy, but also the torpedos were very hard to detect. When they did drill with them.

reply to post by neformore


Some americans are so proud to be americans that they will defend a lie; at all cost.

Politics have become the new justice system in the US. Where the president now have the power to be a judge and executioner. What do the public say: Serves them right for being terrorists.

- They think the government is doing all this to keep them safe? Jesse's christ, they just gave their president a mandate to kill them.

Patriotism have such power over some of these people. That common sense dosent exist any more.
They think they are to powerful to fail no matter what mistakes they make.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by neformore

 

Some americans are so proud to be americans that they will defend a lie; at all cost.

Politics have become the new justice system in the US. Where the president now have the power to be a judge and executioner. What do the public say: Serves them right for being terrorists.

- They think the government is doing all this to keep them safe? Jesse's christ, they just gave their president a mandate to kill them.

Patriotism have such power over some of these people. That common sense dosent exist any more.
They think they are to powerful to fail no matter what mistakes they make.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Well excuse me for being born in a highly advanced military country. We trust the government about as far as we can throw them if we have any common sense. And Split infinity has never said the US navy is invincible. There are always exceptions to the rule. As far as patriotism goes we are supportive of our soldiers,and our laws,and that we have it better than most countries,BUT we are not blind to the government always edging for more power. I Dislike the president myself he would be better off in the EU. So instead of Generalizing all americans take a minute and realize not everyone is the same.

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by neformore

 

Some americans are so proud to be americans that they will defend a lie; at all cost.

Politics have become the new justice system in the US. Where the president now have the power to be a judge and executioner. What do the public say: Serves them right for being terrorists.

- They think the government is doing all this to keep them safe? Jesse's christ, they just gave their president a mandate to kill them.

Patriotism have such power over some of these people. That common sense dosent exist any more.
They think they are to powerful to fail no matter what mistakes they make.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

Well excuse me for being born in a highly advanced military country. We trust the government about as far as we can throw them if we have any common sense. And Split infinity has never said the US navy is invincible. There are always exceptions to the rule. As far as patriotism goes we are supportive of our soldiers,and our laws,and that we have it better than most countries,BUT we are not blind to the government always edging for more power. I Dislike the president myself he would be better off in the EU. So instead of Generalizing all americans take a minute and realize not everyone is the same.

I don't support the actions of your troops. I don't support your new laws, i don't support your government. And i am not an American. But still i care about Americans.

I am saying what i do to motovate Americans. But all they care about is defendig them selves against criticism from people who care.

If i always told you what you wanted to hear. Would i than have cared as much?

reply to post by spy66


I should have been more specific on our Laws. I meant the constitution actually,and not the current end running laws that washington is pulling. The troops are just following orders and are not in charge. They have families and I support them,but that does not mean i support the current administration. We americans are well aware of our governments short comings.We hear about it quite enough from people who do not even have a stake in the game. It is not perfect and no system actually ever is.

Its not wanting to hear agreement its just getting tired of hearing it ad nauseum. We know already no need to beat a dead horse.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Darkphoenix77

 

It is not pride.

As far as an Enemy Sub...FORGET IT! I KNOW that the last few times a Carrier Group had another nations sub just pop up in the groups perimeter...this was by design. NO WAY is a Virginia Class group of subs which are on Group Defense going to allow this to happen unless they chose to.

Split Infinity

No, it's pride. I remember when people said the EXACT SAME THING about the 688 and 688(i) back in the 80s and 90s. I know a couple of sonar guys that will dispute what you are saying, as they were on duty, tracking merchant ships doing training, and paying close attention to the sonar, when they got hammered by active sonar. There was an Akula parked alongside them, not in their baffles, right next to them, and they had no clue it was there until it hit them with sonar.

As for "noisy Chinese boats" there's no such thing as a noisy diesel boat. Even older boats like the Golf II is quiet compared to a regular nuke boat. The US has always had problems detecting SSKs. Even when they know where they're supposed to be they have trouble detecting them, if they even do. That would, again, be why they leased a Swedish SSK to train with.

reply to post by neformore


Think about the motive and logic as well as what would be the result and effect of making this big of a mistake.

When a Chinese Sub with very little in the way of being quiet as this sub is like a Cat having a bell around it's neck trying to grab a bird in the middle of a back yard that has no place for the Cat to hide.

If this event was a mistake and the Chinese Sub did sneek into a Carrier Groups Defensive Perimeter....HEADS WOULD ROLL. The Carrier Commander would be SACKED...the Admiral in charge of this USN. Fleet would be SACKED. The Joint Chiefs would probably be asked by the U.S. Secretary of Defense to start a massive investigation which would result in the Navy Chief's resignation...and ALL HELL WOULD BREAK LOOSE!

What Happened? NOTHING! This just shows how this was a ploy to garnish more Funds designated to be cut to be restored as a cry would go out...THE CHINESE NAVY IS A THREAT!

None of this happened.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


It was a diesel sub. There is no such thing as a noisy diesel sub when they're running on batteries. They are quieter than nuclear submarines because they don't have the extra machinery.

Heads wouldn't roll over this. It was a case of them not knowing it was there. If he knew it was there, and ignored it, and something happened, then heads would roll. That's like saying if an Army commander got ambushed, he would get reprimanded or relieved of his command for it.

reply to post by Zaphod58


A U.S. Carrier Group has Virginia and Los Angeles Class Attack Subs defending it and THEY are responsible to a much greater extent than any surface ship for Underwater Carrier Defense.

The Chinese Subs are easily detected by the cavitation of their screws by such U.S. Subs and every existing Sub of any nation has had it's screws cavitation mapped into these subs passive and active detection systems of which Sonar is one...but not either the only or best one.

U.S. Ocean Floor listening Microphones as well as U.S. Satellite Detection can keep track of enemy subs from the moment they leave port all the way through their deployment.

Split Infinity

reply to post by SplitInfinity


Sorry, but you are posting with rose tinted glasses on. I know its hard for you to accept, but the US armed forces aren't all conquering invincible gods.