Why should I go to hell?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

 

The only difference between me now and me while I was Christian is that I do not believe Jesus died on the cross or was resurrected three days later. I do not believe he walked on water or turned water into wine with a wave of a hand.

This right here. You believe he didn't die for your sins. No blood of the Lamb on you = you're not saved and you probably never were or you couldn't come to that conclusion. What you have is salvation by works which is a catholic teaching.

No, that is not Catholic teaching. Rather, it is that we are "saved through faith, but not faith alone." Your works don't save you, Christ does, but your works are a testimony to your faith, and they are necessary to demonstrate it. Protestants (well, most of them) would be hard pressed to say that your works have no bearing (as that would invalidate a lot of scripture) but theologically detach it from salvation in order to say that we play no role in it, apart from accepting Christ.

If I profess a true faith in Christ, and immediately engage in a gunfight with a policeman, killing him before being killed by someone else, do my works make any difference? (An extreme example, and the issue has nothing to do with the circumstances of the hypothetical.) The Catholic would say "yes, you are condemned", a small minority of Protestants would say "no, you are saved" and the rest would say something along the lines of "yes, it shows you didn't have true faith, you are condemned."

By my way of reasoning, it's just two ways of looking at the same thing, and the conclusion is irrespective of the wording.

There is no where to go. Here is all you will ever know. But humans don't see or hear here and now. Humans are waiting for some thing else. They believe there is better later. There is no later, this is it. If your experience is hellish it is because you believe there is better and you believe time will bring it to you.
If you could completely immerse yourself in this moment, lose yourself in the moment (completely), you would be carried away and the rapture would be known.

It is only you and your ideas that make this place hellish. Remove the plank and the vision will be seen clearly as it is. All the ideas about other places and other things blind you from the truth.
We never left the garden of Eden.
Humans can't see what is in front of them because they judge it. Humans see evil and good and these words (they are just words) colour your world.
And in turn they hide the Kingdom, the Glory of God, which is present at all times.

Originally posted by MamaJ

If you do not believe Christ died for your sins and resurrected and sits at the right hand of Power, then your sins have not been paid for.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

And what if you believe he sits on Gods left side?

Come on now....

We ALL make sacrifices and some of us indeed sacrifice our lives for others just as Jesus did.

According to the Bible our " sins" are paid for the day he died on the cross.

We all bare crosses, unfortunately.

IF Jesus was the first man (Adam) then he according to law would have to come back and sacrifice himself for mankind. IF he was not Adam or the same lineage his soul was evolved enough to correct the law of death. According to the law Jesus dying saved us all. For those who dont believe then they will when they see him as we will have to " go through him to get to the father".

Soooo many perceptions that are egotistic. Why think your way with your reasoning is right?

The Bible is interpreted many other ways by your own Christian brothers. Its a divider and clearly wrong to think your way is the only way and you have to do this, this, and that in order to enjoy everlasting life.

Jesus explains all this in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares and the Parable of the Sheep and Goats. It's also in the prophecies of the hebrew bible. He doesn't force salvation on anyone, if he did no one would be going into the fire.

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

And the saddest words i have ever read in all the bible:

Matthew 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

John 6:28-40

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You can't even come to him unless it be by the Holy Spirit, the gospels emphasize very much on the need to believe in Him.

John 6:41-44

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

reply to post by adjensen

No, that is not Catholic teaching. Rather, it is that we are "saved through faith, but not faith alone." Your works don't save you, Christ does, but your works are a testimony to your faith, and they are necessary to demonstrate it. Protestants (well, most of them) would be hard pressed to say that your works have no bearing (as that would invalidate a lot of scripture) but theologically detach it from salvation in order to say that we play no role in it, apart from accepting Christ.

I didn't say we are saved by faith alone. Faith comes first, works proceed after as a physical manifestation of your faith. I would have to say a person professing to be a christian that has no works, never had faith to begin with. If a person claims to belong to Christ but is selfish, has no mercy and no forgiveness, those are signs that something is wrong.

If I profess a true faith in Christ, and immediately engage in a gunfight with a policeman, killing him before being killed by someone else, do my works make any difference? (An extreme example, and the issue has nothing to do with the circumstances of the hypothetical.) The Catholic would say "yes, you are condemned", a small minority of Protestants would say "no, you are saved" and the rest would say something along the lines of "yes, it shows you didn't have true faith, you are condemned.

If you could even bring yourself to commit an act of murder, then that is also a sign that something is very wrong. The only unforgiveable sin is to blapheme (slander) the Holy Spirit and Jesus makes this very clear, it's the only thing he will not forgive. If you have had a true salvation experience it will change your spirit. Now someone who was a murderer before they were saved can be forgiven, a person who claims to be saved that commits murder was never saved to begin with, like that guy who murdered 12 people in Aurora C.O. and this is where the "know them by the fruits of their labors" comes into play.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The miracles Jesus supposedly performed coincide with completely natural phenomena, so there is no reason for me to believe he actually did those things. They are only metaphors used in order to make Jesus seem more miraculous than he actually was.

Remember: The skeptic is ALWAYS convincible.

Even Thomas after seeing everything he had up to that point still could not believe that Jesus had risen again.

Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.” Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

How about those miracles that Jesus "supposedly" performed for me personally?

I have experienced so many supernatural encounters during my lifetime that it makes it a literal impossibility for me to even THINK about doubting the REALITY of Jesus.

I KNOW that he is real and this is now a FACT simply because of the impossibilities that He brought about in my own life.

Countless millions of others throughout history have ALSO encountered undeniable miracles that make metaphors and coincidences a complete impossibility. Many of them are here on ATS.

NEVER forget this: We have been lied to about EVERYTHING that matters.

These lies are standing between you and the truth and in essence blinding you to reality.

We have been deceived. MASSIVELY deceived...

Critical thinking skills will NEVER help you if you are unable to discern the difference between facts and lies.

WHY SMART PEOPLE OFTEN CAN'T SEE THE TRUTH

"Psychologists use the term Cognitive Dissonance to explain the brain’s inability to consider opposing evidence. Governments intentionally try to create this disorder in the population. That’s how they can get away with creating events like 9/11. If the population in general didn’t have Cognitive Dissonance, they could never stage events like this. Cognitive Dissonance is a form of government sponsored mind control."
Source

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


This though just like ANY INFORMATION handed down from one person to another and translated numerous times NEEDS to be taken with a grain of salt.

Scholars argue who wrote Matthew and when. IF it was over a period of time such as 100 yrs then Im inclined to wonder about truth within the writings. Did the writings come from Mark. Was this the Law of the jews or all of man?

I happen to believe Jesus soul Is also Adams soul ( Luke traced the lineage and Matthew disagrees). Did Matthew even write Matthew? Thats up for debate! Adam being Jesus and setting the law/ record straight was indeed needed to fulfill the law of the souls evolution. This makes sense within the frames of my belief after studying the scriptures and where they came from and who authored them and so on. An investigation of the heart should be done by all in my opinion because your heart does not lie. Men do! Men seek to conquer and divide and this is why Jesus did not preach religion.

There are many evident things in regards to Jesus teachings. He was ALL ABOUT LOVE! The basis of his soul is nothing but pure and honest love. If we read material that contradicts his essence then deciphering has to come into play.

There was definitely an agenda back in the day just as there is in todays time. Mans agenda. Not Gods!

In my opinion Jesus taught reincarnation. Do you think our leaders have ever wanted us to know this fact, if it exists? No way!

In the Bible though its obvious to me what happens when we die. Jesus refers to himself as others... Could it be so? I think so! It makes sense!

We are our own judge in the light.... We see all we could not see as Earths law is governed with a veil. The soul has to evolve within its own right and have a chance to " get it right", after all, we have an eternity.

It is the resistance to what is that makes it hurt.
It hurts like Hell.
Stop fighting. Stop waiting.
Just be.

Plain and simple, because you are deciding to pay for the 1 or 2 sins you claimed to have committed, as opposed to allowing Jesus to pay for them. It just so happens that the penalty for 1 "tiny lie" as you put it, is eternal damnation.

reply to post by MamaJ

I happen to believe Jesus soul Is also Adams soul

That is blasphemy. The Spirit in Christ was not Adam. Why do you think it was prophesied he would be called "God with us"? We are jews, bought into the House of Israel by the blood of Christ. Jesus didn't come to make a new religion.

All through the NT Jesus alludes to who He is, he gives some major clues in John 5:37-47 and John 8:56-59. You might want to go read up on that and then ask yourself who that was standing with Abraham the day Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, Who stood there in the physical with Manoah's wife (samsom's mother), Joshua (in ch. 5), Moses on Mt. Sinai when he showed him his back, and with Gideon.

Jesus even accepted worship from men:

John 9:38
John 20:28
Hebrews 1:6 (from angels)
Matt. 2:11
Matt. 8:2
Matt. 9:18
Matt: 15:25
Matt. 28:9
Matt. 28:27

In Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

All through the OT it tells you who he is. Isaiah tells you quite a bit who he is.

Isaiah 43:8-13

8 Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes,

And the deaf, even though they have ears.

9 All the nations have gathered together

So that the peoples may be assembled.

Who among them can declare this

And proclaim to us the former things?

Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified,

Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”

10 “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,

“And My servant whom I have chosen,

So that you may know and believe Me

And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed,

And there will be none after Me.

11 “I, even I, am the Lord,

And there is no savior besides Me.

12 “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed,

And there was no strange god among you;

So you are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,

“And I am God.

13 “Even from eternity I am He,

And there is none who can deliver out of My hand;

I act and who can reverse it?”

John 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

I AM translates in hebrew as Hayah. Hayah is the first name God gave to Moses when he appeared to him as the burning bush the first time, before he sent Moses back to Egypt, that's why the jews tried to stone him.

John 10:31-33

31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Have you EVER STUDIED AND RESEARCHED these scriptures by which you live by and judge others? If not, start today or when you have time. You are still in infancy stage in my opinion.

Do you place yourself upon a pedestal thinking you have it all figured out? You dont, unfortunately.

Do you have any idea the contradictions you find not only in the OT but the NT as well and why do you think that is?

When was Matthew, Luke, John, and Mark written and by whom? What was their goal in writing these texts?

History matters my friend and to not see clearly Jesus and Adam are the same soul is denying yourself truth that indeed makes more sense than you give yourself credit for being able to find.

Seek all your life.... You will find the truth eventually. If not in this life, another. I live by the same advice. :-)

Eta... Here is a link that may or may not open your eyes and heart. Allow truth and it will be given.

www.near-death.com...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


If you don't believe in Jesus why would you still believe in heaven and hell? So i wouldn't worry about it.

In regards to your other statement about going on a killing spree and still get in to heaven, That is where my whole issue began with religion. Do what ever you want as long as you go to church sunday and confess ( if he is all knowing why do you still have to tell him?) and believe Jesus died so you could go on said killing spree is a total mind F#@k to me.

Whatever it may have started out to be, has been rewritten by man and therefor in my opinion is useless info. As long as you except him for dying for our sins you can do what ever you want and say its gods work, he can't interfere with free will, so its open to interpretation, but you still get your golden ticket at the end of the day. because you believe. makes my head hurt.

when you die you will go back to the earth and sprout new life, and continue the cycle. and that is that. Look on the bright side if there is a hell and you end up there thats where all the party people will be anyways. Have you spent anytime around religious people who would want to deal with that for eternity?

reply to post by DIRTYDONKEY


I totally LOL when I read your post.

Good thinking and great advice for the op ( in my opinion of course).

reply to post by borntowatch


You think it is a lie because you don't agree with it. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's a lie. How can I be lying if that's what I truly believe? I could say that you are lying about the holy spirit, but I don't because I know you actually believe what you say.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I didn't say we are saved by faith alone.

If you don't believe that, then you are citing Catholic theology, not Protestant. It comes down to a technicality, because both sides (well, almost all of both sides) see it the exact same way, that faith AND works matter, the Catholics just include the acknowledgement within the "what saves you" part, and the Protestants include it outside of the "what saves you" part, though admitting that you don't get the to "what saves you" part if you intentionally keep on sinning.

Like I said, a technicality, but I wanted to clarify that point, as regarded your statement that the Catholic teaching is that it is your works that save you, which is incorrect.

reply to post by DIRTYDONKEY


I don't believe in heaven or hell, at least not in the biblical senses. The point of the thread was to maybe get certain Christians thinking about why some people deserve to go to hell, to rethink their position on who's worthy of heaven and who isn't.

Apparently my attempt failed because they went right back to the same old story: Jesus.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
"It's impossible to be the same person after you have truly believed the Truth and received the Holy Spirit for what it is, it will change you."

The truth does not have to be believed.
And i would say that one has to die first before being reborn as spirit..

Really, so what can we believe other than the truth?? There are only two choices - lies and nothing!

Yes, you will die first before being reborn of the Spirit and in Truth. Your carnal self will die. You that previously longed for the satisfaction of the physical body, longed for all the creations of man will die.

After the rebirth of the Spirit and in Truth, the things you longed for you now despises. Things you used to hate you now love. You are now a new creature!!

A carnivore has become a herbivore so to speak... The flesh you used to love you now hate, the Tree you used to hate you now love!

reply to post by Murgatroid


I find it ironic that you believe I have been deceived when in all actuality, you are the one who has been deceived. You have been lied to about everything that is important. Believing in some guy who lived 2,000 years ago is nowhere near as important than what you do today and how you treat others today.

What happened 2,000 years ago doesn't effect anything that happens today, it is in the past and should be kept there. If you're more focused on the past than you are on today then you have no idea how to prioritize and are delusional in my opinion. Religion and Christianity has brainwashed and indoctrinated you into not caring about the here and now.

What matters is today, the now. Too many people are stuck in the past and waiting for the future hoping Jesus will come back and fix everything. I have news for you, Jesus is never coming back and the only ones who can fix the mess we are in now is US, not some guy who died 2,000 years ago. Once everyone learns that fundamental truth, we can begin working for a better tomorrow today.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

I find it ironic that you believe I have been deceived when in all actuality, you are the one who has been deceived. You have been lied to about everything that is important. Believing in some guy who lived 2,000 years ago is nowhere near as important than what you do today and how you treat others today.

What happened 2,000 years ago doesn't effect anything that happens today, it is in the past and should be kept there. If you're more focused on the past than you are on today then you have no idea how to prioritize and are delusional in my opinion. Religion and Christianity has brainwashed and indoctrinated you into not caring about the here and now.

What matters is today, the now. Too many people are stuck in the past and waiting for the future hoping Jesus will come back and fix everything. I have news for you, Jesus is never coming back and the only ones who can fix the mess we are in now is US, not some guy who died 2,000 years ago. Once everyone learns that fundamental truth, we can begin working for a better tomorrow today.

I agree with you to a point. Not that im right.... Lol

If you take into account that reincarnation exists and that we ALL pay karmic debt whether in this life or the next then history does indeed matter.

The point of remembering a past life falls to the waist side when as children we become engulfed with not only doctrined dogma but the world itself.

Because of my belief in Reincarnation it makes experiences, life, death, people, and so on make much more sense.

Im very analytical. Because of this I dissect everything and everyone, including myself because I WANT TO UNDERSTAND that which that confuses me.

Jesus dying over 2000 years ago matters to me. I believe he existed as Adam. I believe he paid the debt of the Karma he not only bestowed on himself but also of man. In this sense I UNDERSTAND how it became confused with resurrection and understand WHY the drama of him dying was needed and why the Christian believes he died for all of our sins. He was a child of God and he was tested, tempted, and ate a fruit that killed us and wiped us away from the blissful garden whereas we now KNOW( tree of knowledge) not only good.... But evil.

Man will be set free when he comes back to show all his brothers and sisters that the way back home for good is to remember the day when the choice was made to choose knowledge ( technology) over life ( loving our brother and sister as our self). The tree of knowledge is definitely a killer! It may end up being our demise but I seriously think the debts been paid in full when he died for not only us but for his actions in the garden of eden as well.

Remember... This is just my thoughts. Nothing more, nothing less. :-)

What a lot of Christians believe hell to be and what it actually is aren't the same thing.

So- I guess I'll introduce the topic of what hell is from an Orthodox Christian perspective. First, OP, I am in no place to tell you whether or not you'll experience this state. BTW, hell isn't the proper term. Hades/sheol (chasm between righteous and unrighteous dead) and gehenna (unquenchable fire).

God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, yet others perished just being near the fire. The fire didn't change. The light of Christ illumines all (even when they hate God and didn't prepare themselves in this life for that reality).

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

Regarding the Christian concept of salvation and the need for Christ:
In the Orthodox Church- we apply something calling apophatic theology (negative theology)- to describe God by saying what God isn't instead of what God is. We believe that God's essence is unknowable and ineffable. However, we can participate in God's energies.

Examples:
No one has seen or can see God (John 1:18).
He lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
His ways are unsearchable and unfathomable (Job 11:7-8; Romans 11:33-36).

Because of this- in order for us to participate in the energies of God/attain salvation- we need Christ (very God of very God- both fully God and fully man). We can know God via the person of Christ. It is a pious opinion that even had sin not entered the world, we still would have need of Christ.

Salvation happened in the past. Via the incarnation (specifically the hypostatic union), it became possible for us to attain theosis. To one in the Church (a Christian), we are being saved. If we persevere, we will be saved in the future. Those in the Church are part of the body of Christ and have the Holy Trinity living in them. Through the life of the Church, the Holy Mysteries, and the power of the Holy Spirit, we are empowered to do good works. Anyone living out their life in the Church will be changed/transfigured. This is only possible through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. We must daily pick up our cross and follow Him. Christ’s suffering death on the cross and resurrection made it possible for us to now have a way through suffering and a way to reconcile ourselves to God (abolishing sin and death) through his human nature. Christ’s ultimate act of suffering love gives us His saving companionship and grace. We can literally be baptized into Christ as part of His body (Church/Israel). Through our life in the Church, the ultimate hospital for sinners, we hope to one day attain theosis and participate in the divine energies of God.

reply to post by MamaJ


In my opinion, the karmic debt we pay only affects the world on an individual to individual basis. What one person does in the past doesn't affect the whole world in the future, it only affects what happens to THEM in their next life, no one else.

If what Jesus did in the past was so great and what he did affects the world today, then why is the world not so great now? From what I can tell, what Jesus did has no affect on us, otherwise everything would be all honky-dory, but it obviously isn't.

Karma is based on the theory that what you did in a past life carries over to the next. If you are a really good person, really good things will happen to you in your next life. If you are a really bad person, really bad things will happen to you in the next life. If what Jesus did was so great and what he did affects the entire world today, then why are we in the situation we are in now? In my opinion it is because what he did has no affect on the world as a whole.

What you're talking about is cause and effect, which has nothing to do with karma.

Not saying I'm right either, just saying what I feel.


ETA: I want to clarify what I meant by cause and effect because I realize it is the main thing in which t karma is based on. I don't mean the karmic version of cause and effect, I mean it in a scientific action/reaction sort of way, if that makes any sense.