Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

reply to post by wildtimes

This ^^^ is totally Buddhist.
Live in the moment, mindfully.
So, I'm sorry, but I'm not clear on your stance about reincarnation and the Gnostic writings exposed in the Nag Hammadi texts.
regardless,may I believe that my posts have made you 'think' as well?

Of course, but these are roads I've already traveled many tiimes. I'm sure you have traveled my roads as well a time or two. All I'm saying is consider the time that can be saved by humility. Not humility before me. You keep confusing what I am saying for me. I have been relating Christ here. We should be showing deference to Him only. Forget me in all of this. You have every right to see me as arrogant. I can clearly see you as the same. When we both humble ourselves before the only one we should be considering as true, then both of us will have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I hear you saying that you do not know my stance on reincarnation. I can only tell you to follow the link in my signature below and then read the article on Water Baptism. It is explained in full there. As for Gnostic writings, my last post stated that many of them are filled with agendas that are not the intent of Christ in the Bible. Some of them have facts we can consider. Rumi is the same. Rumi was an Islamic Sufi, yet some of the things he says in his poetry seem to indicate he knows way more than the average man on the street. It's all worth considering, just keep in mind that the most important information you can possibly possess is right in your Bible. It is the filter for the rest by context.

Let me ask you: How do you view salvation by the cross of Christ as the only way? It is true that I hold my pride in Christ and Christ alone. The only arrogant part of my belief will be in this fact. Don't mistake this pride in anything other than a job well done from a life of searching truth. I'll proudly proclaim this fact to anyone who will listen.

reply to post by QuantumSeeker

Whta if the person does not have conscience???Or did something questionable which is actaully nothing wrong,just his own perception???

Very good questions, and I don't know.
First of all, I think those who have "no conscience" during their mortal lifetime probably "develop" one.....
but we are talking about psychopathology there,
another of my fave subjects, but one that I have not hitherto addressed in spiritual theory.

The something questionable that he perceived as wrong issue is, of course, conscience at work. Remorse is okay, I don't think those who err and are remorseful will have too hard a time.

Honestly, though, I'm pretty much only a beginner in even learning that these theories exist. I've read a few books by people who are masters and/or experts....
but I don't have all the answers, obviously....

What do you think happens to them (your two hypothetical people)?

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Let me ask you: How do you view salvation by the cross of Christ as the only way?

Well, I think I've explained that, but I'll do you the courtesy of answering it here, rather than directing you to a bunch of my earlier writings.

At this point in my seeking, I think that Christ came here to live as an example, and to spread the Word that we are all part of the same One Divine Source. I think he made it very clear that everyone is included, not just those who have heard of him, or fall to their knees in worship. Therefore, the indwelling Spirit is. It is not something a person can refuse or opt out of owning.
It just "is". Being aware of that (believing him) helps to ease the suffering of the mortal plane, and to lessen the fear of "death", which should (in theory), cause people to be less competitive, less predatory and frantic for power, less willing to hurt others.

I think saying "salvation by the cross of Christ is the only way" is exclusionary, and not what he taught:
I view his message as instructional and hope-giving, and am certain that a person who reflects the indwelling Spirit that unites us with Christ and each other in his life, his behaviors, and his innermost thoughts has no need to "come to the cross and repent," for their salvation (and everyone else's) is already assured.

The. Golden. Rule.
People who have never heard of Jesus Christ yet emit that Spirit in their whole being are just as "worthy" as the most pious monk. A monk who exudes piety outwardly but has a heart of stone toward all of life is going to have to endure many, many more real-life lessons before he gets it, but he will, eventually.

It's really that simple.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

All I'm saying is consider the time that can be saved by humility. Not humility before me. You keep confusing what I am saying for me. I have been relating Christ here. We should be showing deference to Him only. Forget me in all of this. You have every right to see me as arrogant. I can clearly see you as the same. When we both humble ourselves before the only one we should be considering as true, then both of us will have eyes to see and ears to hear.

In other words, "consider the time that can be saved" if I just listen to you and ignore everything and everyone else and proceed to shut up. Sorry, but I've never been that kind of student. I'm a front-row, hand-raised, in-your-face challenger and questioner and pointer-outer. It is my nature. Always has been. You telling me to become that kind of complacent back-row note-taker teacher's pet is useless with a person like myself.

How do you deal with youth in your bands who are not yes-men? Do you bring up Christ when the trumpets are too loud? Do you take the flutist's instrument and tune it for her if she can't seem to get it adjusted from being flat?
How do you keep harmony in the group? In their product?
I've heard the most sublime of world-class symphony orchestras, and the 4th graders squeaking out "Frere Jacque" at a painfully slow glacial pace while I wince at the dischordant clashing of their out-of-tune playing and try to tap my foot in some semblance of metronomic rhythm. I hear an 'f' where an 'f-sharp' belonged.

My husband can't hear those same things that make me wince and cringe. He didn't get the training or experience.

I have been a musician all my life as well, I know the joy of being part of a band, a symphonic orchestra, of hearing a performance by a soloist who's very soul is illustrated through their instrument. I know that the artist is uniquely capable of his expressive abilities and can't be told he "should" use a slower vibrato, or rush his pauses...

You are relating your understanding of the messages that we have all been given. It is for each human being to find their way to the meaning, the Truth, the Light, and the Divine Reunion without taking another man's word for it.

I consider my willingness to ask questions and to admit uncertainty as humility. You say you "can clearly see me as arrogant, and when we both 'humble' ourselves ...

before the only one we should be considering as true

then both of us..."

I am not the one insisting I know how people "should" live, or what they "should" think. When you to take on that mantle and proclaim from your time-saving omniscience that others are looking the wrong direction and should just do what you say, I am not inspired or enticed to say, "Oh! Okay then. Thanks. Right away, I'll do just that. Whew! That's certainly a load off."

On the contrary, I am reflexively inspired to keep looking, after having absorbed and added to the file your point of view.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by QuantumSeeker

 

Whta if the person does not have conscience???Or did something questionable which is actaully nothing wrong,just his own perception???

Very good questions, and I don't know.
First of all, I think those who have "no conscience" during their mortal lifetime probably "develop" one.....
but we are talking about psychopathology there,
another of my fave subjects, but one that I have not hitherto addressed in spiritual theory.

The something questionable that he perceived as wrong issue is, of course, conscience at work. Remorse is okay, I don't think those who err and are remorseful will have too hard a time.

Honestly, though, I'm pretty much only a beginner in even learning that these theories exist. I've read a few books by people who are masters and/or experts....
but I don't have all the answers, obviously....

What do you think happens to them (your two hypothetical people)?

I don't really heard of this theory before ,after some thought ,I guess the person who doesn't have conscience will be reincarnated until he realized his own fault,as for the person who feel remorse over something that is actually not wrong and worry about it,I think well maybe he can figure whether it is real or not when he face those "things" after he died.Just my 2 cents.

Peace~

reply to post by QuantumSeeker

I don't really heard of this theory before ,after some thought ,I guess the person who doesn't have conscience will be reincarnated until he realized his own fault,

I agree with that idea. He will be returning and suffering until he develops a conscience eventually by trial and error, hard knocks, experience.

The other person (who feels uncertain) will have a chance to see and reflect on what he did and whether or not it was conducive to his spiritual attainment or not. That's the in-between, ethereal resting period when the disembodied soul reviews and reflects on the past lifetime and confers with ethereal guides as to what he needs to learn next.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by rwfresh

 

You got me all wrong. I don't care about your salvation. In fact i think you got the bible, Buddha, spirituality and salvation all wrong too. You cannot be saved.

Really !!
I have it all wrong? I can 't be 'saved'? And you don't care?
*chuckles"
Okay, um, whatever.
I'm so shame-faced and reconciled to my doom.....thanks for pointing that out.
And what is with the not-a-face in your avatar?

"I can 't be 'saved'? And you don't care"

The part of you that is not 100% Truth/Love ("God spark" as you might call it) cannot and will never be saved. And yes i don't care and neither should you. Why should either of us worry about delusional ego selves not living eternally? Why worry about impossible things? I know i have an ego. There is no doubt. And it is temporal and will go to hell and all the rest. There is no confusion about that. And frankly not a lot of fear except what the ego itself expresses. Also completely temporal in the context of Truth.

So we live in a fake non-reality created by delusion, calling out for Truth and God and Love. Then we weave a story where we acknowledge we will recognized Truth if it will manifest as a human and lay it all out for us.. As a human. Then it manifests as such and we deny it... As we prophesied we would. Coincidence? It's only coincidence in the world of egos and non-reality.

Anyway, Peace and Love.. oh the avatar is Jeff Spicoli's head on a buddha!

What would make anybody interested in the Gnostic beliefs other than idle curiosity? I'll admit I haven't read much more than the wikipedia article, but I don't understand the appeal.

reply to post by cloudyday


I've been interested in metaphysical stuff all my life, magic (i.e. miracles), meditation, secrets of the mind, the great mysteries, the paranormal. Ever since I was a little kid I've had this thirst to know who I am, why I'm here, and this feeling that there's more to "me" than my body and brain.

An awareness, a feeling of being outside myself sort in an aura kind of way (I call it expanding head sensation).

I first started learning about Zen about 20 years ago, and then Eastern thought intrigued me. Gnosticism is an interesting blend of meditation, higher-self knowledge, ancient philosophies, esoteric truths, and all that good stuff.
I also arrived, at about the age of 12, at the conclusion that reincarnation made the most sense. When I started learning that the early church and Christ himself taught reincarnation (about 20 years ago), I got even more interested.

I just never got much about of the Western (Christianity) religions. I'm not a Jew, nor a Muslim. Was born into a WASP family. But it's my fascination with the human mind, psychology, spirituality, the cosmic truths, and the mysteries that make Gnosticism interesting to me.

reply to post by wildtimes

I think saying "salvation by the cross of Christ is the only way" is exclusionary, and not what he taught:
I view his message as instructional and hope-giving, and am certain that a person who reflects the indwelling Spirit that unites us with Christ and each other in his life, his behaviors, and his innermost thoughts has no need to "come to the cross and repent," for their salvation (and everyone else's) is already assured.

Here is my view: I see salvation as conditional, but grace is free. Grace is unmerited favor. The final judgment is the end of this grace offering to the world. Until then, the world will continue to test this in us on an ongoing basis. The defining part of salvation will be these two elements. Apart from them, there is no salvation.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1) Confession must be made verbally hat Jesus was raised from the dead by God.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2) Righteousness can be gained by anyone from good deeds and a loving heart. This is not salvation. Salvation from this reality comes by confession of the verse above.

From here, we must demonstrate evidence of the above by the fruit of repentance.

James 2:26

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Someone might come along today and say that I am only quoting Paul. They might say that Jesus did not have this message. I would simply point the HTML to Matthew and have them read. We have a picture of angels gathering the wicked from the earth and burning them to death, leaving the righteous (Matthew 13). From this, I would want to know what makes a person righteous. If we read Matthew 5-7, we hear a sermon preached by Jesus. By comparison, Paul speaks much more easily toward our spiritual journey than Jesus. Listen to it here. Matthew 5 Audio

To this, I would add Matthew 10:27

27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.

This is my motivation.

From there, You need to realize Matthew 10:32

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven.

This is in context with Paul's confession diagram above.

Matthew 12:37

37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Lastly, read this one.

Matthew 13:18

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

If you realize what I am telling you here, then please determine the soil content of your heart. I do this daily. Each day, I find more and more rocks to throw out, weeds and thorn bushes to root out. Until I find nothing but good soil, I won't stop. You can find many sources that can tell you how to be righteous. Nothing can give you salvation except Christ.

Matthew 13:49

49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.

Compare this to Luke 17:26-37

One is taken, the other left.

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

I heard a preacher preaching on the radio yesterday. He said this was the Rapture. He was wrong. All of spirituality is a work to salvation by our own efforts. With Jesus, it's a shepherd leading his sheep. We only know his voice calling if we recognize it. If you call on the name of the lord, you will be saved. To be his sheep, simply knock on the door.

Matthew 7:7

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

The headrest thing in life is to humble the pride and confess sin. Jesus expects no less than turning and walking a new way with Him.

reply to post by wildtimes

How do you deal with youth in your bands who are not yes-men? Do you bring up Christ when the trumpets are too loud? Do you take the flutist's instrument and tune it for her if she can't seem to get it adjusted from being flat?
How do you keep harmony in the group? In their product?
I've heard the most sublime of world-class symphony orchestras, and the 4th graders squeaking out "Frere Jacque" at a painfully slow glacial pace while I wince at the dischordant clashing of their out-of-tune playing and try to tap my foot in some semblance of metronomic rhythm. I hear an 'f' where an 'f-sharp' belonged.

My husband can't hear those same things that make me wince and cringe. He didn't get the training or experience.

I have been a musician all my life as well, I know the joy of being part of a band, a symphonic orchestra, of hearing a performance by a soloist who's very soul is illustrated through their instrument. I know that the artist is uniquely capable of his expressive abilities and can't be told he "should" use a slower vibrato, or rush his pauses...

All musicians eventually come to realize that the notes on the page were written by a specific composer who desired the note be played a certain way. When a musician gains mastery over the theory of the music, they are still not musicians. They need to then spend the time in practice to master the instrument. Experience is the best teacher. This still does not guarantee success. Many times, the musician is their own worst enemy by the work ethic they possess and their ability to see that a process must be followed to gain mastery. Effort and attitude are equally important.

By your reasoning in many places, the composer and the theory are all what you make of them with no rules. Even that doesn't work in jazz. In jazz, we improvise, but the theory is doubly important. Many people think improvising is the easiest way to make music. That all depends on the musician's previous training in the theory. They get this by listening and by a great deal of previous practice. Eventually, following the proper rules and guidelines allow them to then create their own symphonies or amazing solo licks. Apart from the theory being followed, it's all useless.

Above, you asked how I teach the students. I have two tasks. I need to allow them the room to fail many times in a manner that is long-suffering on my part. Success comes at the farthest edge of failure. I need to be patient and kind as they learn. I need to show them that rules must be followed in the music with great care and attention to detail if all the musicians in the band will benefit as a team. Along with the music, I strive to show them that the same attention to detail is what makes a successful life. All music lessons include the parallel lessons in life. I don't teach Christ in the classroom. Instead, I demonstrate Him by my actions and words. My own worst enemy is always myself. This is the same for the musicians. When the students fail, I can always point the finger at myself in part. Along the way, 22 years of experience teaches me that it's a mutual effort of respect for the music and the one who created it. I would never put a different composers name on the program I perform. I give credit where credit is due.

In this symphony of life, Christ is the Word that authored the symphony. God provides the musicians and the concert hall. He's also the composer's Father. He's also the Father of the musicians. He's quite amazing.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

An intentional double post:

You are relating your understanding of the messages that we have all been given. It is for each human being to find their way to the meaning, the Truth, the Light, and the Divine Reunion without taking another man's word for it.

I consider my willingness to ask questions and to admit uncertainty as humility. You say you "can clearly see me as arrogant, and when we both 'humble' ourselves ...
before the only one we should be considering as true
then both of us..."

I am not the one insisting I know how people "should" live, or what they "should" think. When you to take on that mantle and proclaim from your time-saving omniscience that others are looking the wrong direction and should just do what you say, I am not inspired or enticed to say, "Oh! Okay then. Thanks. Right away, I'll do just that. Whew! That's certainly a load off."
Beyond that, I was on a website today (and just spent 15 minutes looking at my browsing history to find it, but didn't)...that reinforced the fact that every individual has to find their own answers; that packaged religions are not the way. A person (I) must not take anyone's word for it, but keep seeking, until I find it myself.....and as I said earlier (in another thread), I will listen to what Jesus had to say. Not what you or any other mortal man tells me "is the way". I am interested to hear what he said. JC. The guy. The one. The one who knows.

Anyhoo, Ed, what happened to your Gnostic interest?
Only 10 months ago or so........and you seemed pretty enthused. Now it's all crap?

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . the fact that every individual has to find their own answers; that packaged religions are not the way. A person (I) must not take anyone's word for it, but keep seeking, until I find it myself.....

I don't go for people telling me, "You must submit to (mine, or whoever I have submitted to's) authority!".
Jesus said there is one Father, and he was not pointing at any human being.
A little theme music to get in the right mood.

"Have you come, then to rescue me?"
He laughed and said, "from what, 'Colleen'?"

reply to post by wildtimes

Anyhoo, Ed, what happened to your Gnostic interest?
Only 10 months ago or so........and you seemed pretty enthused. Now it's all crap?

Not all. I covered the Gospel of Thomas with great interest because of its value. I covered one verse of the Gospel of Philip. Esdras and Song of Solomon are high on my list of great books. There are some that are very much misguided. For instance, The Secret Book of John, The Nature of the Rulers and On the Origin of the World are very questionable to me. They are intriguing for sure. If we know the symbolism of what they were saying, possible it would make perfect sense. There are some books that I did like. Exegesis on the Soul seemed to have some value to me.

There is a Gnostic thread that is know as the arch-dualist ideology. Much of this is a dichotomy between the various schools of Platonic, Neopythagorean, Middle Platonic, and Neoplatonic philosophy. It's all good for perspective, especially if you have studied the vain philosophies of men. There is an underlying truth in all of it when viewed correctly. Do you and I possess this correct view on our own? No. The Holy Spirit is necessary for understanding.

The root of what I have been saying to you is not my own vain philosophy, but the underlying truth from the Bible that can be demonstrated when a person humbles themselves before God and sees the truth clearly from the eyes of Christ. There is only one way to get there. The bridge is the path we walk with Christ. All other ways and philosophies are dead ends leading back to the branch in the road that pointed to Christ. If you walk the wrong way, you must walk back to the branch and take the correct path. I'm just trying to show you the correct path. As you say, maybe we are both on the same path. I wish you luck if that's true. My path is confirmed to me in more ways than I can express. I'm sure you will find the same along the way. Seeds of truth grow if they are healthy and we keep the soil moist with virtue. This is true for all of us here. Living water is found in the Bible.

I don't agree with the idea that prepackaged religions don't work. Each person individually defines if a religion works. For a person raised in medieval Europe the prepackaged Catholicism probably worked great because it was part of the culture. It probably gives a person a lot of comfort for everyone in the tribe to have the same religious beliefs including your great great grandparents and knowing that your great great grandchildren will believe the same things.

Actually one of the problems with U.S. religion is the diversity. People used to walk to their village church to commune with their neighbors. Most religions until recently have had a social dimension. The government officials would sacrifice a bull to Zeus in front of a crowd and have a public banquet afterwards.

I certainly don't want anybody forcing me to go to the village church every Sunday, but this is obviously the way Christianity should be due to its emphasis on community. Islam is even more social-oriented.

(Sorry, I'm just throwing out an opposing view here. I don't know what I think about it really.)

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by cloudyday

 

I've been interested in metaphysical stuff all my life, magic (i.e. miracles), meditation, secrets of the mind, the great mysteries, the paranormal. Ever since I was a little kid I've had this thirst to know who I am, why I'm here, and this feeling that there's more to "me" than my body and brain.

An awareness, a feeling of being outside myself sort in an aura kind of way (I call it expanding head sensation).

I first started learning about Zen about 20 years ago, and then Eastern thought intrigued me. Gnosticism is an interesting blend of meditation, higher-self knowledge, ancient philosophies, esoteric truths, and all that good stuff.
I also arrived, at about the age of 12, at the conclusion that reincarnation made the most sense. When I started learning that the early church and Christ himself taught reincarnation (about 20 years ago), I got even more interested.

I just never got much about of the Western (Christianity) religions. I'm not a Jew, nor a Muslim. Was born into a WASP family. But it's my fascination with the human mind, psychology, spirituality, the cosmic truths, and the mysteries that make Gnosticism interesting to me.

Christ himself taught reincarnation?Never knew that.

reply to post by cloudyday


Excellent points!
I agree with you, and please don't apologize. It would be comforting; it would feel like it must be the Truth!
If everyone believed it, then who's to question?

But it's never been that way...
even in the earliest days, there were prosecutors of people with different ideas.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


"The root of what I have been saying to you is not my own vain philosophy, but the underlying truth from the Bible that can be demonstrated when a person humbles themselves before God and sees the truth clearly from the eyes of Christ. There is only one way to get there."

The closer to Truth someone is the more they will speak from that Truth without compromise.

Humility and honesty only make the message clearer and stronger. The truer the message, the truer the messenger, the more likely the message will be opposed and denied by delusion. Like oil and water. Delusion cannot penetrate Truth.

People have come up with all kinds of ways to clearly communicate Truth to one another. But none can be more effective than the Truth itself.

Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of this Truth. Because he declared himself to be the Truth with total honesty. We can say whatever we want about this. He was killed by people who claimed his proclamation was false and arrogant... even evil. Nothing has changed. Truth is the only thing that exists and yet it the one thing that is totally and aggressively denied.

I'm open and interested in hearing and reading about anyone who speaks AS the truth as opposed to those that speak about the truth. Because those people are either totally and utterly deceptive or completely Real.

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated!

Peace!

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

"The root of what I have been saying to you is not my own vain philosophy, but the underlying truth from the Bible that can be demonstrated when a person humbles themselves before God and sees the truth clearly from the eyes of Christ. There is only one way to get there."

The closer to Truth someone is the more they will speak from that Truth without compromise.

Humility and honesty only make the message clearer and stronger. The truer the message, the truer the messenger, the more likely the message will be opposed and denied by delusion. Like oil and water. Delusion cannot penetrate Truth.

People have come up with all kinds of ways to clearly communicate Truth to one another. But none can be more effective than the Truth itself.

Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of this Truth. Because he declared himself to be the Truth with total honesty. We can say whatever we want about this. He was killed by people who claimed his proclamation was false and arrogant... even evil. Nothing has changed. Truth is the only thing that exists and yet it the one thing that is totally and aggressively denied.

I'm open and interested in hearing and reading about anyone who speaks AS the truth as opposed to those that speak about the truth. Because those people are either totally and utterly deceptive or completely Real.

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated!

Peace!

Not trying to be negative, but I always admired Pontius Pilate when he said "what is truth?" Is there any evidence that any religion has truth? They all look about the same to me. They are just a way to give people a little peace of mind that hopefully allows the deluded practitioner to be a better member of society.

Religion is a way to feel comfortable with chaos. Truth and chaos don't get along. Science is about truth (predicting the unknown). Religion is about chaos (the unexpected). Quantum mechanics shows that chaos is inherent to the universe. Some things can't be predicted know matter how much truth we have. Truth is limited.

reply to post by rwfresh

I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated! Peace!

Thank you. Christ has the glory. We have no room to boast ourselves. We are all fallen sinners here and now. The grace we point to is free and nothing we could ever do from our own works. We don't make ourselves.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Christ chooses us, yet we are offered salvation. Who is offered? Those who seek and knock. All we can do here is present the offer and the evidence for its merit.