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Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by rwfresh
I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated! Peace!
Thank you. Christ has the glory. We have no room to boast ourselves. We are all fallen sinners here and now. The grace we point to is free and nothing we could ever do from our own works. We don't make ourselves.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Christ chooses us, yet we are offered salvation. Who is offered? Those who seek and knock. All we can do here is present the offer and the evidence for its merit.
Well said...
but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...
Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon
Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...
This also brings up another interesting and related thought. Did Christ boast? Would anything other than a demonstration of his character and words in parable be permissible for him to do to avoid sin? This is something to consider when reviewing our own words to each other and in various threads. Grace would need to be a bragging point for Jesus to say it was offered. At the minimum, the wording would need to be well crafted. The same would be true for salvation. This makes me want to go back and reread the red letters. I've always been keen to notice wording and how well purposed the words of scripture are related. How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words? For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.
edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words?
For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.
Originally posted by Akragon
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon
Well said... but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...
This also brings up another interesting and related thought. Did Christ boast? Would anything other than a demonstration of his character and words in parable be permissible for him to do to avoid sin? This is something to consider when reviewing our own words to each other and in various threads. Grace would need to be a bragging point for Jesus to say it was offered. At the minimum, the wording would need to be well crafted. The same would be true for salvation. This makes me want to go back and reread the red letters. I've always been keen to notice wording and how well purposed the words of scripture are related. How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words? For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.
edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Jesus did boast... but only about God giving all the glory to him...
This is one of my issues with Paul... he did boast of himself...
Grace is another issue... Purely pauline thought... John mentions it, but it was different, its used to discribe an "ease" in which Jesus came up with answers... and the way he conducted himself.
I believe "grace" is the wrong word... paul uses it as "unmerited favor", and while it is true... Gods gift of life is "unmerited"... saved through grace brings a lazyness to the idea... Perhaps even a slight "superiority"
"Power" might be more accurate... Jesus uses it to discribe God many times...
Grace was "given" by paul... but notice...
John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Yes, Ed, that is it. The whole thing.
All of us are already going there; some sooner, some later. There are a number of lessons required prior to that (prerequisites).
The thing is to be kind, loving, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic; and to recognize the suffering of others and offer what we can to help.
Every individual has unique things to offer.
The point is to pay attention, and give what you can, in your own way. There's no need to skin your knees, cry to the heavens, be dunked in water, shouting anything.
Just do it. Just love each other.
Nothing else is required.
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight
How easy would it be to slip up and produce a misplaced fallacy by poorly chosen words?
Exactly!! That's two for two this evening, Ed!
For me, this is yet another evidence of the authenticity of scripture. No mere mortal could pull this kind of accuracy off apart from glaring mistakes.
Wait.
What??
Authenticity of which scripture? The originals? Those are the ones that matter. The Bible is completely an example of the first quote above.
The ancient, authentic texts are what need to be examined.
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I will leave paul to you christians...
Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...
Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I will leave paul to you christians...
Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...
Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by EnochWasRight
I will leave paul to you christians...
Jesus taught forgiveness... paul, not so much...
Besides this isn't the place for him, If i feel like beating on paul... i have a thread for that
What again??
Colossians 3
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by rwfresh
I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated! Peace!
Thank you. Christ has the glory. We have no room to boast ourselves. We are all fallen sinners here and now. The grace we point to is free and nothing we could ever do from our own works. We don't make ourselves.
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Christ chooses us, yet we are offered salvation. Who is offered? Those who seek and knock. All we can do here is present the offer and the evidence for its merit.
Originally posted by cloudyday
Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by EnochWasRight
"The root of what I have been saying to you is not my own vain philosophy, but the underlying truth from the Bible that can be demonstrated when a person humbles themselves before God and sees the truth clearly from the eyes of Christ. There is only one way to get there."
The closer to Truth someone is the more they will speak from that Truth without compromise.
Humility and honesty only make the message clearer and stronger. The truer the message, the truer the messenger, the more likely the message will be opposed and denied by delusion. Like oil and water. Delusion cannot penetrate Truth.
People have come up with all kinds of ways to clearly communicate Truth to one another. But none can be more effective than the Truth itself.
Jesus is the ultimate demonstration of this Truth. Because he declared himself to be the Truth with total honesty. We can say whatever we want about this. He was killed by people who claimed his proclamation was false and arrogant... even evil. Nothing has changed. Truth is the only thing that exists and yet it the one thing that is totally and aggressively denied.
I'm open and interested in hearing and reading about anyone who speaks AS the truth as opposed to those that speak about the truth. Because those people are either totally and utterly deceptive or completely Real.
I know you are not claiming to be the Truth, and i write this because i really don't find any arrogance in anything you are saying. I think you are speaking honestly about what you know is true and it's appreciated!
Peace!
Not trying to be negative, but I always admired Pontius Pilate when he said "what is truth?" Is there any evidence that any religion has truth? They all look about the same to me. They are just a way to give people a little peace of mind that hopefully allows the deluded practitioner to be a better member of society.
Religion is a way to feel comfortable with chaos. Truth and chaos don't get along. Science is about truth (predicting the unknown). Religion is about chaos (the unexpected). Quantum mechanics shows that chaos is inherent to the universe. Some things can't be predicted know matter how much truth we have. Truth is limited.
Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by Akragon
Well said...
but Grace is not mentioned by Jesus...
I hadn't thought about it, but you are correct. I never considered it, but as I think about it, He demonstrated it many times. I think we get grace as an attribute of God mentioned in many places like Isaiah. John mentions it as well. I would assume an attribute like grace was derived by Paul from the context of both Jesus life and God's Word from the OT.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14
Psalm 45:2
You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed with grace, since God has blessed you forever.
Isaiah 26:10
But when grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and do not regard the majesty of the LORD.
The Lord, in Isaiah, often speaks of this topic of demonstration going on deaf ears. Something like Grace does not produce our righteousness. I read the sermon on the mount and realize that we are desperately lacking by our own efforts. It required salvation from a shepherd first. The righteousness comes from the Holy Spirit later when we are transformed with new consciousness. The primary choice now is to believe and confess Christ. This is why a Christan can be judged so harshly in all of this. We are sinners like anyone else. The movement toward righteousness many be accelerated, but the goal is far from us by our own efforts and reasoning. Christ brought salvation along with an example to demonstrate the claim that he was Holy and one with God.
Here is where you will find the main point. Zachariah was the father of John the Baptist. His prophecy reveals the nature of Jesus ministry.
Zechariah 12:10
[ Mourning for the One They Pierced ] “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Remember, this prophecy is not yet fulfilled in full. This happens when Christ returns in his glory to bring salvation.
Hebrews 9
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Revelation 1:7
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
To bring this back to the Gnostic texts, we can assume the same thing they assumed. All of this will happen as stated in scripture. None of the Gnostic would argue with any of it, including the OT. There were disagreements with Paul, but Paul handily demonstrates his knowledge and inspiration on the matter.
It's no accident that the Bible just happens to end in 22 letters written by Paul and others. The letters of the Hebrew alphabet show up all over the Bible, not just forming the words they make. It's a signature showing us who was there.
edit on 28-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight
Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Which leads to a perplexing verse in John 15
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Yes, Ed, that is it. The whole thing.
All of us are already going there; some sooner, some later. There are a number of lessons required prior to that (prerequisites).
The thing is to be kind, loving, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic; and to recognize the suffering of others and offer what we can to help.
Every individual has unique things to offer.
The point is to pay attention, and give what you can, in your own way. There's no need to skin your knees, cry to the heavens, be dunked in water, shouting anything.
Just do it. Just love each other.
Nothing else is required.
Originally posted by rwfresh
...
Truth, Ultimate Truth. The cause and explanation for everything is clearly not limited. But our acceptance and understanding of it is limited in infinite ways.
Truth is not Religion. Chaos is (as in Chaos Theory) is another level of order. And in the context of Truth, it's another division of non-reality. It is not Truth. It is not absolute. Quantum mechanics is a nomenclature for describing and communicating the latest dissection of non-reality. The only people having an epiphany through it's practice are the few 1000 scientists actually doing it. I know a lot of people that "believe" in it.. but few who are able to actually prove anything with it. I mean few that can actually walk through a proof and fully understand it, few that are actually conducting provable experiments on the bleeding edge. Anyone can read Scientific America and assume they know the truth.. and anyone can read the Bible and assume they know the truth.
Maybe you are one of them. I don't know. Just speaking from my own experience.