The Devil's Chord: The conspiracy to open the portal of consciousness and mystery of the octave

Originally posted by rwfresh
It's funny how discussing and thinking about this all actually has nothing to do with music. You know.. actual music that has sound. What the hell are you people talking about? hahahahaha

Similarly, Graham H. Jackson in his book The Spiritual Basis of Musical Harmony (2006)[6] suggests that the overtone and undertone series must be seen as a real polarity, representing on the one hand the outer "material world" and on the other, our subjective "inner world". This view is largely based on the fact that the overtone series has been accepted because it can be explained by materialistic science, while the prevailing conviction about the undertone series is that it can only be achieved by taking subjective experience seriously. For instance, the minor triad is usually heard as sad, or at least pensive, because humans habitually hear all chords as based from below. If feelings are instead based on the high "fundamental" of an undertone series, then descending into a minor triad is not felt as melancholy, but rather as overcoming, conquering something. The overtones, by contrast, are then felt as penetrating from outside. With the help of Rudolf Steiner’s work, Partch traces the history of these two series, as well as the main other system created by the circle of fifths, and argues that in hidden form the series are balanced out in Bach's harmony. Kathleen Schlesinger, in her 1939 book, The Greek Aulos, pointed out that since the ancient Greek aulos, or reed-blown flute, had holes bored at equal distances, it must have produced a section of the undertone series. She said that this discovery not only cleared up many riddles about the original Greek modes, but indicated that many ancient systems around the world must have also been based on this principle. In 1868, Adolf von Thimus showed that an indication by a 1st century Pythagorean, Nicomachus of Gerasa, taken up by Iamblichus in the 4th century, and then worked out by von Thimus, revealed that Pythagoras already had a diagram that could fill a page with interlocking over- and undertone series.[7]

Originally posted by UncleV

By the way, the fourth is not contain in the overtone series, oddly enough. Root, octave, fifth, major third, second, flat seventh.

If you'd like to dig into the controversy, one of the objections to the above was voiced by Walford Davies in 1926: he discounted the possibility that the fourth is "somehow mysteriously disqualified because it is not to be found between a fundamental tone and any of its natural harmonics; for (unfortunately for this theory) exactly the same is true of the minor third from the bass, and that has been accepted as a concord for many a long day.

Right so you have argued the major third is based on the overtone series -- but the minor third is not found in the overtone series.

The minor third is found in the undertone series though -- but even this is discounted since it is not the same fundamental as its overtone major third counterpart.

haha.

So again the major third is derived from the "divide and average" means that originated with Archytas. Frequency is the inverse of time as wavelength.

So this issue of whether the Perfect Fourth is a subharmonic or harmonic is still not resolved and it contradicts the Hertz rule of frequency as inverse to wavelength.

I just posted a quote confirming what you have stated and I have agreed with -- the Perfect Fourth is not found in the overtone series. I had posted how it is then used as a subharmonic of the Perfect Fifth -- instead of as the frequency being inverse to the wavelength. So when the frequency of the Perfect Fifth is 3/2 and the wavelength is 2/3 then the subharmonic of the Perfect Fifth is 2/3 or maybe 1/3 and it is doubled or quadrupled by the octave into 4/3. When it is doubled the it changes from a Perfect Fifth into a Perfect Fourth -- and so this process goes against the frequency as inverse to wavelength.

So now let's consider why this is a cover-up.

The interval of a fourth has the ratio 4 / 3 and like the fifth, 3 / 2, is of crucial importance to the construction of musical scales. It is the interval that exists between the 3rd and 4th harmonics.

Oops -- I guess we were wrong - the Perfect Fourth is in the overtone series!!

The perfect fourth may be derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the third and fourth harmonics.

Ooops -- here it is again -- the Perfect Fourth is now claimed to be in the overtone series. Hmm. That's strange. I thought is was only a subharmonic of the Perfect Fifth.

What's going on? haha.

Obviously there's a serious contradiction that's being covered-up.

Again I have pointed out that 2/3x is F to C while 3/2x is C to G -- same C -- C to G is 3/2 as frequency but 2/3x is F to C as subharmonic of C to G. It's not consistent - it's a contradiction -- it's a cover-up. It is not a Hertz measurement.

O.K. so normally the harmonic overtones are measured as 2:1, 3:1, 4:1. And then 3:1 is converted to the Perfect Fifth -- how? By doubling the octave of C to 2 so it's 3:2 instead of 3:1. Fair enough right?

But then why can't we double the octave for the Perfect Fourth -- 4:1 -- nope because it needs to be 4:3 and not 4:2. O.K. fair enough.

So then what happens? As I pointed out earlier in the thread -- the "order of infinity" is reversed. The Harmonic Series diverges and therefore it's the invention of the Devil -- acccording to mathematician Abel.

haha.

So nope -- the order of infinity is REVERSED -- so that voila - 4:3 is the Perfect Fourth harmonic from the G to C -- by what? reversing the mathematical ratio. So you have 3:2 for the Perfect Fifth but for the Perfect Fourth you have 3:4 without any octave doubling. Tsk. Tsk. Or is it a subharmonic of 3:2 as 2:3 which is then doubled to 4:3? Hmm. Or is the 3:4 overtone harmonic just REVERSED. haha.

Either way it's a scam that goes against Hertz measurement.

So again the intervals were created from Archytas and Eudoxus and Plato - using "divide and average" means -- for a fake and wrong extension of the Pythagorean Tetrad. So we are told that since the frequencies are logarithmic then to subtract we have to divide as cross multiplication:

The process of subtracting an interval from an octave is called inversion of the interval. Because of the logarithmic nature of the scale of pitch the process of 'subtraction' is in fact one of division. For example, to subtract a fifth, 3 / 2 from an octave, 2 / 1, we divide (cross multiply) 2 / 1 by 3 / 2 giving 4 / 3.

But as was pointed out Archytas stated -- the Perfect Fourth and Fifth are superparticular but because of this no number can produce a true logarithmic or geometric mean.

So to say that the Perfect Fourth is the subtraction of the Perfect Fifth from the Octave because it is logarithmic is misleading.

Logarithms Perhaps the numbers most easily proved to be irrational are certain logarithms.

O.K. so there is a misleading "bait and switch" going on that assumes the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth are logarithmic. We assume that the Pythagorean "infinite spiral of fifths" has to be contained as the equal-tempered logarithmic scale but this is based on the "bait and switch" about the Perfect Fourth as not being the frequency inverse to the wavelength. Instead the Perfect Fourth is the subharmonic and subharmonics are nonlinear.

Sound is not a geometric convergence -- as you have stated -- no need to use a string -- just use Hertz as frequency! haha. But Hertz assumes an irrational logarithmic inverse relationship of frequency to wavelength.

The Pythagorean Tetrad uses subharmonics and overtones -- without any geometric convergence -- instead embracing the inherent asymmetry or complementary opposites of Number -- the secret Harmonia of the infinity of sound -- the time-frequency uncertainty of frequency as subharmonics being nonlinear to overtones.

This same paradox and mystery was rediscovered when relativity collided with quantum physics. So Time as wavelength gets bigger -- longer -- larger -- even though frequency gets higher and this is the same paradox as the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth subharmonic.

If we take a string and divide it by 12 parts, and find the first octave by identifying the ratio of 2:1 as that of the octave, we are left with the second part of the string, measured by the numbers 6 through 12. From here, a series of simple mathematical procedures can be inacted to codify the fundamental ratios of the perfect fifth and the perfect fourth, which in turn added up to the complete octave and which also create the fundamental tone. This was accomplished by finding both the arithmetic mean and the harmonic mean between the integers 6 and 12, according to the following formulae: The arithmetic mean between two points is a simple averaging of numbers, as we are all accustomed to. It is expressed by the formula (a + b) / 2. (Take any two numbers, add them and then divide by two to get the average). This creates an arithmetic series such as 2, 4, 6, 8 or 3, 6, 9, 12. In the case of musical ratios, finding the arithmetic mean between 6 and 12 gives us the number 9, which sounds the perfect fifth below the octave tone. The ratio of 9:6 reduces down to the ratio 3:2. 3:2 is therefore the fundamental ratio of the perfect fifth. The harmonic mean between two points uses the formula 2ab / (a + b). To put this in slightly convoluted english, we can say: the difference between the first and second term in a series is related to the difference between the second and third as the first tem is related to the third. In the case of musical ratios, finding the harmonic mean between 6 and 12 gives us the number 8, which sounds the perfect fourth below the octave tone. Thus: 2(12X6)/(12+6) -> 144/18 = 8. The ratio of 12:9 reduces down to the ratio 4:3. 4:3 is therefore the fundamental ratio of the perfect fourth.

O.K. so here is the Tai-Chi symbol of yin-yang Emptiness as the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth ratios:

As we understand from Pythagorean arithmetic, if we take the hypotenuse of a right triangle and to determine the distance of that hyptonuse when the opposite sides are both equal to 1, this becomes the square root of 2, which is an irrational number. Harmonically, this square root of 2 is equal to the tritone, which is the mid-point between the octave (6 half-steps or 3 whole steps in each direction). It is interesting, and all that needs to be said here, that this interval of the tritone, which is going to concern is a great deal when we get into harmony, is based on an irrational number, whereas the perfect octave, perfect fifth and the perfect fourth are based on ratios that can be expressed using low prime (3-limit) integers, whereas the ration of the tritone cannot.

Originally posted by Mary Rose

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
Truth is not put in words -- only through silence in meditation. Listening to the source of sound.

Maybe you're right.

Maybe we all need to shut up!

Just kidding.

The winning score Roslyn | February 25, 2011

The authors conclude that filmmakers use nonlinear sounds strategically to manipulate audience emotions. On the one hand, this is a fascinating hint at the way artists and musicians might exploit deeply-ingrained aspects of our evolved communication systems. There is evidence that the converse can work, too. For example, composer David Teie wrote cello music for cotton-top tamarin monkeys based on their natural calls, in collaboration with psychologist Charles Snowdon. Teie and Snowdon showed that this tamarin-based music had a much greater effect on the monkeys than standard human cello compositions8. In hindsight, though, the results of Dan Blumstein’s movie score analysis are not surprising. Of course different movie genres use noise in different ways; any musician or sound engineer could have told us that beforehand. The inclusion of human screams in the analysis also seems irrelevant here. The value of this study is that it demonstrates the extension of nonlinear sound into communication functions beyond our natural vocalizations – we don’t need data to tell us that real screams are scary. Several questions remain. For one thing, it is not clear how the authors chose the 30-second clips from each movie; their methods state that they used an “iconographic scene that epitomized the film’s genre”1. Are these results specific to emotionally intense scenes, or are nonlinear elements used throughout movies in genre-specific ways? Another area for further study is the effect of nonlinear sounds on the audience. Can musical noise and nonlinear analogues be just as evocative, or perhaps even more so, than natural human vocalizations?

The concept of ‘‘nonlinear dynamics’’ has been recently introduced to animal bioacoustics, where characteristics of vocalizations are classified using the terminology of dynamical systems ~Wilden et al., 1998!. ~i! Limit cycle: the spectrum is composed of a fundamental frequency with harmonics that are integer multiplies of that frequency. ~ii! Subharmonics: additional spectral components appear in the harmonic stack, typically at multiples of 1/2 or 1/3 of the fundamental frequency. ~iii! Biphonation: the simultaneous occurrence of two independent fundamental frequencies. ~iv! Chaos: a broadband segment with no particular harmonics in the spectrum. ~v! Bifurcations: transitions between different nonlinear dynamical states. Acoustic analyses of birds ~Fee et al., 1998! and mammals ~Wilden et al., 1998; Fitch et al., 2002! have shown a variety of such nonlinear phenomena, including rapid transitions from harmonic to subharmonic and chaotic states without intervening silent intervals.

Keywords: nonhuman primates; nonlinear dynamics; larynx; harmonic; bioacoustics Abstract The pant hoot calls produced by common chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) are multi-call vocalizations that have figured prominently in investigations of acoustic communication in this species. Although pant hoots are predominantly harmonically structured, they can exhibit an acoustic complexity that has recently been linked to nonlinearity in the vocal-fold dynamics underlying typical mammalian sound production. We examined the occurrence of these sorts of nonlinear phenomena in pant hoot vocalizations, contrasting quieter and lower-pitched “introduction” components with loud and high-pitched “climax” calls in the same bouts. Spectrographic evidence revealed four kinds of nonlinear phenomena, including discrete frequency jumps, subharmonics, biphonation, and deterministic chaos. While these events were virtually never observed during the introduction, they occurred in more than half of the climax calls. Biphonation was by far the most common phenomenon, followed by subharmonics, chaos, and frequency jumps. Individual callers varied in the degree to which their climax calls exhibited nonlinear phenomena, but were consistent in showing more biphonation than other forms. These outcomes show that nonlinear phenomena are routinely present in chimpanzee pant hoots, and help lay the foundation for investigating the function of such events. Am. J. Primatol. 64:277–291, 2004. © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Blumstein had a hunch about nonlinear sounds, which can occur when a sound system pushes its limit and the sounds begin to break down — similar to when a stereo is turned up too loud or a singer pushes beyond his or her vocal range. Animals such as marmots (groundhogs) will use nonlinear sounds to grab attention, such as making fearful alarm calls that warn about possible predators. "I don't think any composers were saying, 'Let's put nonlinearities in,'" Blumstein said. "But they were tapping into people's inner marmot." Composers have a lot of musical instruments at their disposal to imitate nonlinear vocals, Blumstein and his colleagues pointed out. Besides the strained strings, there are also overblown brass or wind instruments and inharmonic, noisy sounds created by percussion such as gongs and cymbals.

Researchers have found that closing your eyes can make creepy music feel creepier.

As applied to voice, steady state behavior occurs when the vocal folds are at rest. Then as subglottal air pressure begins to rise a Hopf bifurcation occurs to push the steady state attractor into a limit cycle as the vocal folds begin to produce normal periodic vocal fold vibrations. Often during speech and song, period doubling bifurcations occur and lead to subharmonic oscillation. Subharmonics may be classified as a folded limit cycle, that often appears via transitions from periodic oscillation to an oscillation with alternating amplitudes, or as an addition of a second periodic source, locked at a frequency ratio of 1:2. Less frequent, though still seen in speech and song are phenomena featuring two or more independent frequencies. This phonation, classified as a torus, may be produced with (left-right) asymmetrical vocal fold vibration and has been termed biphonation [13]. As mentioned above, subharmonics and tori often are precursors of deterministic chaos, which includes high airflow multiphonics as an example.

In this paper we have shown examples of the intentional use of nonlinear phenomena in contemporary vocal music. In multi-tone complex sonorities of vocal improvisors we find sub-harmonics, biphonation, sudden onset of irregular phonation (possibly deterministic chaos) interspersed with more periodic windows and sudden frequency jumps (register changes).We argue that nonlinear phenomena, wellknown in voice pathology, play an essential role in modern artistic vocalizations.

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
The winning score Roslyn | February 25, 2011

That is one gorgeous blog.

Originally posted by rwfresh
It's funny how discussing and thinking about this all actually has nothing to do with music. You know.. actual music that has sound. What the hell are you people talking about? hahahahaha

He's taking you up and down the spiral staircase which in itself can be consider a fractal:

: any of various extremely irregular curves or shapes for which any suitably chosen part is similar in shape to a given larger or smaller part when magnified or reduced to the same size

History tells us we're not alone...

Antikythera



sciencestage.com...

Check the hands:




Listen closely to the piano tuner while you're at it:

O.K. so you say use Hertz as overtones! Then you say - -the Perfect Fourth is not an overtone!

I say use hertz as a unit of measure. In the natural overtone series, a fourth does not occur on a given frequency.

The reason I push to use hertz to discuss sound is that it is an accepted unit of measure. Simplest form for this conversation is 1 hertz = 1 vibration a second. When you ask someone to tune to 440hz, you are asking them to bring that note into 440 vibrations a second. Keep it simple. We don't talk about inverting wavelength, etc. simply applying this unit of measure. I think you would stand to gain using a simplified definition as I have been trying to do.

Ok, so why do I keep going to this? Because you are talking ratios but using letters. By doing so, it is very confusing and unclear. 2/3 of C equals G? If we accept C as 100hz (it's not but let's pretend) then a fifth is 150hz. See how easy it becomes? An octave becomes 200hz. This is standard, accepted measurements that hopefully could illustrate your point with greater clarity, hence my pushing of the simple hertz standard. In nature this bears out, so it is simply a scientific unit of measure for a natural phenom. However, with both have to be on the same page and ......I ain't holding my breath.

The biggest flaw I see is that it seems you are expecting an imperfect system of musical notation to prove out equations. The challenge again with ratio/letters is we never get a real value (hence the need for a unit of measure, ahem). For example: A x B = B x A. Looks logically correct but until we plug in a number, we can't be sure ex. 4 x 6 = 6 x 4

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


Never once did I say the scale is commutative. I'm trying to understand why that seems to be so important to you.

So again the intervals were created from Archytas and Eudoxus and Plato - using "divide and average" means -- for a fake and wrong extension of the Pythagorean Tetrad.

So is there a scale made from the proper extension of the Pythagorean Tetrad not using "divide and average"?
If so where can we find it?

Originally posted by UncleV

Thank you for agreeing that the Perfect Fourth and Perfect Fifth are noncommutative with the Octave -- in terms of frequency as inverse to wavelength. So if we use Hertz based on the overtone series you state that the Perfect Fourth does not exist. Yet the most used Nonwestern music tuning is the "spiral of fifths" -- not tempered into a symmetric value system -- so that there are Perfect Fourths used and that each scale is not tempered so that each scale is a different mode.

When I mentioned before that the minor third is not found in the overtone series -- it is found but the overtone harmonic is considered too high to have an impact on the overtone beats which cause the perception of harmony or not. Again it is found as a subharmonic in a closer value but this "theory of reciprocity" is still not accepted since the subharmonic does not line up with the overtone harmonic of the minor third.

That the intervals are inversions and "complementary" is well understood in music -- that this relation is noncommutative is not well understood. The value of the noncommutative relation is the value of frequency being inverse to wavelength as a contradiction since the Perfect Fifth frequency is transposed as a subharmonic -- so that time is reversed -- and this then changes the value of the Perfect Fifth when that time-reversed subharmonic is then doubled as an octave.

So the inversion of the Perfect Fourth and Perfect Fifth as 3/2 x 4/3 = 2/1 as the frequencies of Hertz but to derive this formula the 4/3 frequency is actually the 2/3 wavelength of the 3/2 frequency -- but now as a 2/3 frequency doubled to 4/3. This means that the inversion of the frequency as wavelength actually changes the value of the frequency as a perceived music interval. The frequency is now the Perfect Fourth as 4/3 even though it is derived from 2/3 as the Perfect Fifth frequency which was the wavelength of the 3/2 Perfect Fifth frequency.

As you state the Hertz overtones as the arithmetic series of 100, 200, 300, 400, does not create a Perfect Fourth music interval. So then the wavelength of the 300 to 100 frequency is 1/3 but this is then the frequency as the subharmonic with a wavelength of 3/1 and yet if we double that frequency of 1/3 it is 2/3 and it's still a Perfect Fifth but now it's called F to C instead of C to G and then if we double it again -- as the octave then it is C to F as 4:3 the Perfect Fourth. So this proves that changing the order of the operation then changes the value of the music interval -- whether it's a Perfect Fifth or Perfect Fourth -- in relation to the arithmetic series of 100, 200, 300, 400, etc. So by doubling the 2/3 subharmonic frequency as the octave we get the Hertz frequency of 4/3. But this is in relation to the Perfect Fifth and not the original 100 hertz frequency as "1."

So the question remains -- if sound is defined by a vibrating string and if wavelength is inverse to frequency as Hertz -- then what is Hertz really measuring if the value of "one" is changing. haha 4 to 1 as 400 Hertz is an octave and 200 hertz is an octave so that 300 to 200 is a Perfect Fifth and 1/3 as the subharmonic is a Perfect Fifth as an octave so that 200 to 300 Hertz is a Perfect Fifth but then the octave of the 200 is 400 to 300 Hertz which is a Perfect Fourth. So the Perfect Fifth became the new "one" or 100 hertz octave root note. So if you can just double the Hertz to get the Octave -- why does it change from a Perfect Fifth into a Perfect Fourth? haha.

Hertz is not just one frequency but a ratio of frequency to wavelength -- that's why -- so the Harmonic Series starts with 100 hertz but the wavelength value as "one" changes -- in violation of the commutative property. In other words at first the 100 Hertz is used as "one" but then the 200 hertz is used as "one" because it is an octave of 100 hertz -- but in relation to 300 hertz -- the 200 hertz is no longer the octave of 100 hertz. So then 200 hertz is doubled as the octave it then creates a Perfect Fourth interval as 400 to 300 hertz.

That is the "bait and switch" I'm talking about. The changing of the order of the operation changes its value so it is noncommutative and so is the quantum time-frequency uncertainty principle. So we have time slowing down as the frequency gets higher -- the frequency is the Perfect fifth as 300 to 200 Hertz but then it is inverted to 200 to 300 hertz so that time slows down even though compared to 100 hertz the frequency is higher as the Perfect Fifth. Then since time is reversed when it is doubled as the octave compared to the 100 hertz it is now a Perfect Fourth.

Relativity states that as frequency goes up time slows down -- in violation of Hertz symmetry stating frequency is inverse to wavelength. So since the Law of Pythagoras is correct this means that time and frequency are noncommutative and a superliminal pilot wave signal reverses time, guiding energy-mass

Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by fulllotusqigong

 

Never once did I say the scale is commutative. I'm trying to understand why that seems to be so important to you.

So again the intervals were created from Archytas and Eudoxus and Plato - using "divide and average" means -- for a fake and wrong extension of the Pythagorean Tetrad.

So is there a scale made from the proper extension of the Pythagorean Tetrad not using "divide and average"?
If so where can we find it?

Yeah the scales of China, India, Babylonia, Egypt -- all the scales of nonwestern civilization are based on the "infinite spiral of fifths" -- not tempered through a "divide and average" commutative means.

But more importantly 90% of human history -- the Bushmen culture -- uses the Perfect Fifth, Perfect Fourth and Octave intervals as the noncommutative harmonics.

As I stated yang is 2:3 and yin is 3:4.

You have asked -- if Yang and Yin are the secret to free energy and they are 2:3 and 3:4 then why should the Pythagorean Tetrad be considered the same as Yang and Yin? Because the 1:2:3:4 of the Orthodox Pythagorean Tetrad -- without an attempt to "contain" infinity -- is noncommutative. In other words it can not be extended to the 5:4 using the harmonic means as Archytas did and then 8:5 is the Golden Ratio Freemasonic inversion of the cube root of two 5:4 harmonic mean.

So then it was questioned whether 5:4 is really the cube root of two -- I have already addressed that and I have also shown that the square root of two is the Devil's Interval -- as 9:8 cubed -- also derived from using the commutative means -- of Archytas and Plato -- the arithemetic mean times harmonic mean equals geometric mean squared.

Again this is a bait and switch that ignores how the order of the operation of time and frequency have to be reversed which then changes the value of the ratios in relation to the commutative means equation. So that 2:3 can not be used as the Perfect fifth - even though it is the Perfect Fifth value -- as 3:2 -- so 2:3 can not be used but instead is has to be called the Perfect Fourth. This is because the order of the operation is reversed and so the value in relation to the geometric symbol changes. So 3:2 is C to G and 2:3 is F to C. But the means equations require a commutative value so that only 4:3 of C to F can be used as no longer the Perfect Fifth but transformed into the Perfect Fourth. It was 2:3 as the Perfect Fifth the subharmonic of C to G but then doubled as an octave it is 4:3 the Perfect Fourth as C to F.

As I stated this is the secret of free energy alchemy that the Pythagoreans taught in their secret society -- as the secret of paranormal healing energy. I have posted the healing energy videos and the Mayo Clinic has proven that this healing energy is real and can be transmitted externally:

External Qigong for Chronic Pain, Results from a peer-reviewed, randomized, controlled, clinical study Ann Vincent, Brent A. Bauer, et al Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota Jamia Hill, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota Objective: "Chronic pain is highly prevalent in the general population. Adequate clinical management of chronic pain is an ongoing challenge and a purely pharmaceutical approach has proven inadequate. We investigated the efficacy of external qigong [Spring Forest Qigong technique] as an adjunctive treatment for chronic pain." Conclusions: "Subjects with chronic pain who received external qigong experienced reduction in pain intensity following each qigong treatment. This is especially impressive given the long duration of pain (>5 years) in the most of the participants," writes lead author Ann Vincent, MD, MBBS, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota. The "External Qigong for Chronic Pain" study* by researchers from the University of Minnesota and the Mayo Clinic is published in the American Journal of Chinese Medicine, Vol. 38, No. 4, 695-703. Read the study abstract on the AJCM website. © 2010 World Scientific Publishing Company Institute for Advanced Research in Asian Science and Medicine *The research findings should not be construed as an endorsement of external qigong or Spring Forest Qigong by the University of Minnesota or the Mayo Clinic. The Mayo Clinic does not make such endorsements. The research findings speak for themselves.

This is the secret of how the music ratios can create free energy if understood properly -- the free energy of consciousenss as spirit light or biophoton synchronized coherent light from the quantum noncommutative time-frequency uncertainty combining with relativity as the Law of Phase Harmony.

Originally posted by Americanist
Nope-- as I mentioned I first realized that my masters thesis was wrong -- one point in it -- when Charles Madden wanted to publish it but then said he didn't understand it and I should do a major rewrite. So I was reading Charles Madden's book on Fractals and Music The yin yang part is not in the amazon preview But he states that the yin yang symbol is not a fractal because it is not symmetric. So as I pointed out earlier -- fractals are a byproduct of Western symmetric mathematics. The Fibonacci Series is found in Nature -- but not the Golden Ratio. So yes I posted the "Sound of Fear" research on chaotic sound -- but chaos is a study of time whereas fractal is a study of frequency. The time is phase in chaos -- but it is still based on logistic equations that are logarithmic. So Kepler was against the closed form algebraic equation of the Golden Ratio. He acknowledged the Golden Ratio as pure geometry but didn't think you could put a number as time phase to the geometric length ratio. As I mentioned the closed form irrational number solution relies on "Changing the Order" of time -- so that "A plus B" is not "A - B" and this is what Kepler was against, as I am too. I call this the "bait and switch" trick. We assume that the time is symmetric but it is not due to the time-frequency uncertainty being noncommutative.

So even quantum physics has to be converted to a symmetric commutative mathematics to convert the time-frequency uncertainty into amplitude. I mean science provides a model but we need to realize that physics can not unite relativity with quantum math due to the Law of Phase Harmony -- in relativity time gets bigger in wavelength value as frequency goes up even though time should be inverse to frequency -- so this necessitates as secret faster than light pilot wave that is consciousness or information that can reverse time from the future based on space bending. So it's beyond a fractal as that assumes a commutative symmetric math and it's beyond chaos as well -- as both assume time can be "contained" as infinite geometry. If time is not contained as is the truth then it is consciousness as a signal from the future.

Einstein didn’t completely deconstruct the concept of simultaneity, for that job requires the deconstruction of space itself. The stars and galaxies and such are remarkable intimations of infinity though they do not represent a huge space that simultaneously contains myriad far flung life-bearing planets and intelligent civilizations. Rather, I think, they represent the infinite set of souls which are separated by separation itself yet are each non-locally interacting with every other. That extreme, non-local causation — that extreme synchronicity, that extreme coherence/entanglement of an infinite set of otherwise unique quanta of time — may provide a basis for understanding Fermi’s Paradox. It seems to me that the bell curve assumed in that paradox as representing the number of planets bearing civilizations simultaneously capable of a certain mode of, say, space travel stems from the assumption that non-local causation is not important. My suggestion is that such causation is all-important. Quantum mechanics — in which entanglement/correlation is the general case — seems to similarly apotheosize non-local causation. Hence, I think, said bell curve should be more like an impulse function, what engineers call a delta function. Therefore we might say that life is progressing “everywhere in the universe” like water rising in a flooded room. Such image is consistent with Einsteinian-type space–time, which space–time does indeed conserve a fundamental kind of simultaneity. However, I'm saying space–time is but an imperfect concept used to describe an observer's immediate experience. Reality, I'm saying, is an infinite set consisting of unique quanta of time — observers, “dynamos,” as Leibniz called his monads (his Monadology he called a “dynamics”) — that are all all non-locally yet thoroughly interacting with every other, each of them flowing through every other, infinitely in contact with each other. The aliens, I'm saying, are all “here” already, though nearly all of them are here very subtly, apparent only in terms of the supposed inanimate aspects of our experience, especially the hydrogen atom.

I know all this sounds crazy, yet I’m more reporter than prophet when I exclaim that the biggest surprise waiting for us in space is the fact that space does not exist. The elephant in the room is the room itself, which is precisely why that elephant is so hard to recognize much less to acknowledge.

So this person has figured out the problem but not realized the solution is through nonwestern harmonics

Indeed "aliens" are spirits.

reply to post by fulllotusqigong




You harp on ratios being found in music, yet fail to acknowledge the near precision of the Golden Mean within the Fibonacci Series beyond the 13th position.

The yin yang symbol is circular. It's not hard to imagine a repeating pattern up and down the scales... Same as a swastika filling in the voids. You're pushing too hard in the attempts to broaden the model which is unnecessary.



I've sourced two definitions of the word fractal lacking any hint of being symmetric. I'm not quite sure why you're still hung up on the idea.

Time is an assembly from Zero point to Zero point. The word chaos is defined as:

obsolete : chasm, abyss

2 a often capitalized : a state of things in which chance is supreme; especially : the confused unorganized state of primordial matter before the creation of distinct forms — compare cosmos b : the inherent unpredictability in the behavior of a complex natural system (as the atmosphere, boiling water, or the beating heart)

3 a : a state of utter confusion b : a confused mass or mixture

So no, not the best choice if you ask me. Why? Because the Universe is purposely framed disorder.

Pay closer detail to our heart muscle, cellular structure, blood flow, ear drums, etc., etc.

To put it bluntly... We're not spiraling out of control. Furthermore, silicon droplets can be made to trace pilot waves by our own doing. There is nothing groundbreaking or mystical. Time is contained as a vector-based static framework of spun density. There is no future or past, so indulging your thoughts beyond this point is rather comical. Exception being...

There is a signal, if you hear it calling:

that extreme synchronicity, that extreme coherence/entanglement of an infinite set of otherwise unique quanta of time

We are being invited to realize that we are Time. We are the Living Prophecy. The Synchronic Order of Natural Time governs the unfolding of our lives. Time's cycles are found within our bodies and within Nature's daily rhythms and cyclic seasons. We have forgotten this, thinking that time is money or that time is the clock, or the relentless progression of work weeks and weekends. Time is the ever-changing, unfolding Now as it synchronistically coordinates the Whole living Universe.

System of Truth

reply to post by Americanist

All that propaganda you're posting assumes symmetric commutative math but the foundation of physics is not based on symmetric commutative math.

The Golden Ratio is Freemason propaganda. Yes it's every where as the continued fraction of 1 plus 1 divided by 1.

But this fraction is actually noncommutative -- and so it's not a "contained" infinity like the Golden Ratio.

Mark Rodin has already been debunked in this thread -- he relies on a symmetric gematria that is just numerology.

our failure to harmonize quanta and gravitation has not yet stifled progress in either front. Nevertheless, the possibility that there might be some deep dissonance has caused physicists an esthetic unease

A "deep dissonance" -- this is also called a Deep Disharmony.

the basic problem is defining time as a static visual measurement -- whether you call it a "point" -- or what ever other visual measurement.

We listen to sound. No visual measurement is needed. haha.

European Mathematics did not stem as a by-effect of purely technical geometrical enquiries, but as the result of a socially and politically crucial musical problem.194

Yep Western math is from a cover-up of music as noncommutative - time-frequency uncertainty -- quantum.

194 Luigi Borzacchini and Domenico Minunni (Dept. of Mathematics, University of Bari, Italy) A
MATHEMATICA NOTEBOOK ABOUT ANCIENT GREEK MUSIC AND MATHEMATICS

In front of this rich Pythagorean musical tradition about the incommensurability, we can find in the Pythagoreans' fragments no traces of incommensurabilty deriving from geometrical metrical constructions on square or pentagon, whereas in Plato and Aristotle the reference of incommensurability becomes exclusively geometrical. The “secret of the sect”?

Yep this is a conspiracy. As Professor Borzacchini stated - my math is good but I have no historical proof.

195 Historia Matematica listserve [HM] Music and Incommensurability, Luigi Borzacchini, Mon, 12 Jul
1999.

In other words when music theory paved the road toward the discovery of incommensurability the idea of geometric magnitude was too clumsy to develop and even to understand such discovery, and it was exactly the possibility of the geometric drawing of a not-existent music interval to foster the development of the Aristotelean continuity.224

224 Luigi Borzacchini, “Music and Incommensurability,” Historia-Matematica, August 18, 1999.

See incommensurability refers to the discover of the proof for the irrational number. The Golden Ratio proof comes from music theory which is noncommutative - -whereas the Golden Ratio is commutative.

The Golden Ratio is wrong.

we can maybe reveal the deep 'preestablished disharmony' of the link between human knowledge and reality.

Yep -- so we've gone from a "deep dissonance" to a "deep preestablished disharmony"

Math Professor Luigi Borzacchini reveals the truth about set theory as being a deep disharmony

O.K. you can make the Golden Ratio with a compass and ruler -- no need for the irrational magnitude proof of Eudoxus and Euclid. But that is what makes the Greek Miracle of math -- to "contain" infinity as incommensurability and the continuum.

Quantum physics shows this is wrong due to noncommutative uncertainty of time and frequency. Nonwestern music is the secret source for incommensurability and nonwestern music is also noncommutative in time and frequency.

So the extremes have met.

The Golden Ratio is old news now - a dinosaur of the classical age of physics.

So you say time is a "point" but this is easily disproven just by looking at the rainbow on the back of a c.d.

It's produced by quantum diffraction gradients of light waves -- not points. The waves have interference to create the rainbow based on time-frequency uncertainty.

Long-term research objective: Matter wave interferometers, in which de Broglie waves are coherently split and then recombined to produce interference fringes, have opened exciting new possibilities for precision and fundamental measurements with complex particles. The aim of our research program is to extend the ideas and techniques of atom optics and atom interferometry which underlie atom interferometers, to use these devices to make qualitatively new and/or more precise measurements in atomic physics, and to perform fundamental experiments in quantum mechanics based on our ability to measure interactions that displace the de Broglie wave phase or change the quantum coherence of the beams (reducing the amplitude of the interference pattern).

A fully quantum treatment of center of mass motion is the essential formalism for the new fields of atom optics and atom interferometry.

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


Speaking of containment:



Saturday night's are for drinking, so I'll get back to you inside this debate!

Originally posted by Americanist

Originally posted by rwfresh
It's funny how discussing and thinking about this all actually has nothing to do with music. You know.. actual music that has sound. What the hell are you people talking about? hahahahaha

He's taking you up and down the spiral staircase which in itself can be consider a fractal:

: any of various extremely irregular curves or shapes for which any suitably chosen part is similar in shape to a given larger or smaller part when magnified or reduced to the same size

History tells us we're not alone...

Antikythera

sciencestage.com...

Check the hands:

Listen closely to the piano tuner while you're at it:

edit on 10-3-2012 by Americanist because: (no reason given)

I know i was just kidding. I had a good laugh to myself.. you had to be there i guess. I said the same thing about the thread about 8 pages ago.. Commenting on the nature of it's unfolding being an expression of pattern itself.. the thread is proof itself!

reply to post by Americanist

That seems a bit unfair: 45 is a decent number, but it's true to say they’re wider spread this year – possibly, one all-too-human circle-maker tells me, because the farmers near Honeystreet were miffed by last year’s abundance.

As for mathematics, earlier this year a formation appeared at Wilton Windmill, which seemed like Euler’s Identity, one of the most beautiful equations known to man. Alas, one mathematician pointed out that the formulation was so executed that its translation from binary code was altered from an ‘i’ to a ‘hi’, which could, the mathematician said, ‘be somebody’s idea of a joke’. Worse, the ‘h’ could be a nod to Planck’s Constant – and planks are used by human circle-makers to create their formation.

Soon Irving was out in the fields, with planks, tape measures, ropes, gardening poles and a diagram: ‘You make your first circle and it’s visited and probably ridiculed as being man-made. And in the space of two or three outings, you learn quickly. You go from stumbling, blind human to God-like extraterrestrial within weeks. Within weeks, you’re producing “the real thing”.

Now he’s a poacher turned gamekeeper, occasionally doing commercial circles for the likes of Mitsubishi, but essentially an artist and doctoral researcher into art and the landscape, which is, partly, what he sees crop circles as being about.

But a display of circle-making by a team of young engineers who won the 1992 International Crop Circle Making Competition was a revelation to the maverick biologist, Rupert Sheldrake: ‘For flattening the crop, they used a roller consisting of a piece of PVC piping with a rope through it, pushing it with their feet. To get into the crop without leaving footprints, they used two lightweight aluminium stepladders with a plank between them, acting as a bridge. For marking out a ring, they used a telescopic device projecting from the top of an aluminium stepladder. A string was attached to the end of it in such a way that by holding the string and walking in a circle around this central position a perfect ring could be marked out without leaving any trace on the ground in the middle.’ That’s complicated kit.

Yep -- crop circles -- there are no hoaxes -- they're all man made

The decoding of the Wilton Windmill crop formation, May 2010

At first glance, their work seems interesting or could even convince a sceptical mind that there is more to the story than creative hoaxers. However, three key points about the work of the BLT group worry me. The first is that while there is correlation between effects, this does not tell them anything about the causation – this is a fundamental mistake in their analysis. The second problem is the potential conflict of interest – the research group and the people they associate with make a lot of money out of the belief that crop circles are mysterious. American tour groups have been known to pay $2,000 to view crop circles, and theorists continue to make money from books and articles they publish as ‘experts in the field’ (pun intended). The third aspect that makes me wary is that if there really was any scientific merit in BLT’s work then surely scientists would be interested and active. Curiosity driven scientists are not known for avoiding mysterious problems. The fact that there has been almost zero peer reviewed research into crop circles makes me think that scientists are simply not interested in crop circles – they see them as so obviously a hoax.

Notice the comments -- this crop circle was made for Korn's video and then Korn sent everyone to the youtube vid of it.







Just as I suspected -- crop circles are a military intelligence Stargate Conspiracy mind control Psy-op.

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


"that space does not exist." Time also does not exist. It's easy to say this.. quote it. But what does it mean to accept it? Know it? We are "here" in space/in time and talking about how it's not real. We will eventually be writing math proofs that result in two things. 1. proving it's (space/time) not Real. 2. proving it's (space/time) "real". Our desire to experience it as not real results in delusion. But it is not real in/outside of Reality.. which is where the desire comes from. We want to be the one to end delusion of space time and this desire creates it. This is why i ask you what the benefit is because you are driven to practice by the perceived benefit. You want to know the Truth. The understanding that the practice practices us comes from having to admit the futility of trying to end delusion with delusion. What else can be said? I want to practice so i can be Truth? I want to practice to be healthy? See spirits? Travel to other planets? levitate?

Unless the moment the math proof is realized all delusion spontaneously ends, collapsing this non-reality, time, space in on itself, we can know nothing has been accomplished. Delusion persists. It's totally bearable though. I am not insinuating some painful conclusion. It's "self-defeating" in a good way. It's what we do.

Truth is simple, delusion is complicated. Not simple as in shallow. Any deficiency in the Reality of Truth exists only in our inability to express it through delusion. We can still frame it by accepting what it isn't. It isn't deficient. It isn't time. It isn't space. It isn't our theories or our communication. It's not. It's futile to deny this. But scientists and mystics, by the very nature of their (non)existence do exactly this. If you experience unfoldment you know you are deluded. We are Buddha, anything he experienced without us is delusional.

We are the aliens. We are the spirits. Any practice that does not lead to that experience is not working. Again, I'm not the first to say this. Long drawn out teachings of the Buddha go into detail how every single experience/realization mystics/students/practitioners experienced leads to a mistaken association of deluded reality with Reality. He doesn't really let on that he himself is still searching.. but his physical body and the persistence of his teachings should be enough proof.

If you take time out of the equation delusion does not exist. We as individual delusion bubbles are not in control of Time. We are not figuring anything out. We as a unified expression of denial told ourselves already what's up. Time starts and time ends. When time ends, delusion ends. If 'you' have merged with the Truth while time continues you should admit nothing has in fact happened. If you realize yourself as Truth eternal, and come back in time to tell people about it you have first admitted the experience as delusional.

When i say delusion.. it's not judgement or some psycho babble use of the term. It's a technical use of the term in the context of consciousness. Everything perceived as and through self is delusional and creates the physical/spiritual/ethereal realities and time itself. All not real in the context of Truth. Where there is self, there is delusion. Where there is unfoldment or ANY experience of time or space there is delusion resulting in "creation". And in Reality nothing is created because everything exists eternally.

If we perceive time does not exists and our experience of it cannot be eternal.. should we seek to destroy it? Jesus, Buddha and the rest all claim we should hurry up and attempt to realize eternity or something terrible is going to happen. But who is it going to happen too? Can time end without our effort?

reply to post by rwfresh


Well you said you were going to practice the small universe -- so why not get the practice music c.d. and find out? haha.

Music is a practice. Nonwestern music is the practice of time/space transformation and mind/body transformation.

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
Just as I suspected -- crop circles are a military intelligence Stargate Conspiracy mind control Psy-op.

In the book Stewart Says . . . , by Stewart Swerdlow, published by Expansions Publishing Company, Inc., copyright 2004, pages 31 and 32, Swerdlow says about crop circles:

. . . Just as a human being has chakras with meridians emanating from them all over the body, the Earth has energy centers with ley lines crisscrossing all over and through the planet. This forms the Earth's morphogenetic grid. It looks just like a matrix with occasional energy balls in it.

When a hyperspace sentence of sequences, which is similar to DNA sentences, is injected into certain spots of the Earth, it replicates and spreads over the entire planet affecting the morphogenetic grid, changing and/or altering it. Doing this to the Earth is similar to giving a person an inoculation in the arm or buttocks.

Crop circles are attempts by those in control to alter the structure of physical life by entering new instructions or programs via the Earth's language, which is the Language of Hyperspace. The creation of crop circles leave traces of ELF and radiation in the structure of the field or crop. They are created via beams of microwave frequencies and electromagnetic pulses. . . .

Hoaxes are purposefully staged to discredit the real researchers. This also imprints the public with the idea that crop circles are all jokes not to be taken seriously. The media, particularly Hollywood, is excellent in perpetrating this dishonesty.

Many good researchers have been compromised, threatened into silence, or into reversing their statements about crop circles. . . .

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


If Pythagoras and Archytas had both used a scale A1-A12 then B1-B12 then C1-C12 and so on would you still have this conspiracy theory?

A circle of fifths backwards is a circle of fourths however that is based on simple note name. When we talk about the overtone series ex. 100hz, 200hz, 300hz, etc. you could say, going backwards that 300hz to 200hz is a fourth. But we tend to move forward in naming intervals in a case like this, so it is relative I suppose. You, if I'm understanding you correctly, are basing each instance off of the same note, let's say 100hz. However, each possible frequency stands alone. So, since there is no one frequency (I believe we ALL agree to that) each fundamental frequency and the overtone relationships stands alone, unique.

A starting frequency of 120hz gives overtone series of 240hz, 360hz, 480hz, etc.
A starting frequency of 27hz gives overtone series of 54hz, 81hz, 108hz, etc.

So while we can find a fifth, etc. we should start fresh for each instance. So, the fifth found in 120hz of 360hz (in relation to the octave of 240hz) should become the new starting frequency for the relationships of that note, 360hz.