The Devil's Chord: The conspiracy to open the portal of consciousness and mystery of the octave

reply to post by rwfresh


We are not allowed to talk about the psychedelic plant chemical that is found throughout our bodies and is made from serotonin -- not allowed to talk about it here on abovetopsecret -- but if you read my book I go into the details of it compared to the full lotus third eye qigong training. haha.

So basically the difference is that in qigong the electromagnetic energy is stored up in the lower tan tien - where the parasympathetic means the sympathetic -- but with psychedelic plant chemicals -- the Mind of Nature -- the neurohormones of the body are turned into kundalini which goes straight to the pineal gland to activate the rainbow vortex shen light holographic energy. In other words in alchemy it is kundalini or jing electrochemical serotonin bliss to electromagnetic energy as chi or prana and then to shen or shakti as laser holographic spirit energy.

The chi or prana is the power that enables astral travel and strong paranormal powers but the psychedelic plants skip the power and go instead for the rainbow vortex holographic information -- so the experience is that you hear the heart spontaneously emit a OHM sound which is the jing being converted to electromagnetic energy but it goes straight to the rainbow vortex holograph.

So during the MIND of NATURE plant experience -- the left brain awareness is maintained but only as a momentary wave as the energy cycles through the right brain and the pineal gland and heart and then back to the left brain again -- so you can not move your body during this experience. So it's much stronger than any synthetic chemical. But you can ask questions momentarily but the answer is given back holographically which means that our internal questions and thoughts are just a resonance or reflection of external reality -- the two are completely interwoven spatially and revealed as one in time. The mind of nature plant -- then gives you a life review and shows you that Nature is consciousness and in control and the true meaning of Nature is love that eternally breaks up energy blockages and then heals them -- so that pain is really a necessary learning curve lesson to be healed at a later time. So our experiences in linear time life are actually linked psychologically and emotionally -- not chronologically -- so that something that happens years later will subconsciously resolve and heal an emotional blockage from years before -- without our being aware of it - until we experience the Mind of Nature.

This is also the Level 4 rainbow meditation in Spring Forest Qigong. The rainbow vortex being the astral body but again the astral body is powered by the qi or prana electromagnetic energy -- so that's why it's necessary to do the meditation to build up the electromagnetic energy or else when we die we just become ghosts experiencing a healing dream of life review and get embraced back into the impersonal consciousness white/black hole vortex that then shoots us back out into another form of physical life. haha.

Originally posted by Mary Rose
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I hear you focusing on philosophy.

What I am focusing on is Western technology as it results from Western mathematics. My persistent quarrel about definitions of words and the use of them in context is not an intellectual exercise about semantics but to try to eliminate extraneous material so that the true crux of the matter can be identified and evaluated.

And I'm already convinced that qigong works. I have no quarrel with that.

But what's the bottom line about Western technology? That it's evil and that we should be living like the Bushmen or Pygmies?

O.K. consider words -- and the quarrel about their meaning. At first I wondered if you had a legal background and that you had discovered a joke. A joke -- as Gregory Bateson analyzed -- creates a "double bind" in meaning -- that's a term he coined for exactly these issues. So my use of the word "only" is both in the negative and the postive -- since I use "support" right after it -- which means it has to be in the positive but it also is in the negative since logarithms go against complementary opposite harmonics.

So you responded -- it's not a joke. Well that depends -- haha. Formally it is the same as a joke. So then I pointed out that this is a paradox of time in logic - and that's why I wrote it - and that this paradox means that normal Western sentence structure does not work. It's just like when professional musicians got on this thread and said they had been trained at Berkeley School of Music and I didn't know what I was talking about -- end of story. haha. So obviously if someone has a financial interest and relies materially on the logic of Western symmetric spatial structures then they are going to be in denial about this information -- that's why it's a conspiracy.

Zizek's books are great for analyzing these paradoxes of political ideology and absurdity in law -- the legal realm -- and cultural absurdities but in the end all he can do is linguistically and conceptually point to the void as a trauma that psychologically has to be covered up by a symbolic symptom. So he gives the "black flag" as a great example - it's a symptom or symbol of a trauma of the void. It on the one hand is absurd and doesn't mean anything -- but on the other hand it has a jouissance -- to use the term of Barthes -- it is charged with psychic energy as sublime enjoyment based on Freudian analysis.

So you zeroed in exactly on this same psychic symptom symbol in my OP -- a double entendre that is a joke for me because I know it's secret meaning as a paradox of time in Western spatial symmetry. This thread is about nonwestern music and promoting nonwestern music as the secret to create healing light energy -- so Western logic creates paradoxes and so does Western sentence structure - as I quoted Nietzsche pointed out -- which he got from studying the PreSocratics.

So is Western technology "evil" -- no - that's my point and it's a good one. I'm not making a moral statement here but I'm talking about formal logic and stating there is an error in formal logic by ignoring the empirical evidence that the natural empircal overtones of sound as the Perfect Fifth and Octave harmonic do not line up as symmetric math and therefore are noncommutative. I'm saying that this paradox was covered up with political and all other implications.

We can definitely say it's immoral but that is a Western perspective from the concept of "original sin" -- in Taoism there is "negative" energy that is called "yin chi" but as qigong master Chunyi Lin states everything is "good, better and best." This is precisely the meaning I implied when I stated that the "music logarithmic spiral" -- only supports -- the complementary opposites.

So formally because of the rotten root -- logically there is an error. Logic precedes scientific math -- math is based on circular logic with a paradox in time. We can logically infer the source of the I-thought as formless consciousness -- this was even embraced by Karl Popper whom I quoted earlier stating that Kepler discovered the secret of quantum physics as governing resonance through science. Karl Popper supported a protoconsciousness model through quantum physics -- precisely the same de Broglie pilot wave model using the Law of Phase Harmony. So this is an issue of logical inference -- we can not measure consciousness with Western technology -- never -- because the frequency is zero and the phase is infinite but the phase as the time-frequency uncertainty -- has to be converted to symmetric amplitude.

So I'm saying that this same paradox also existed in the Pythagorean Tetrad and I discovered it when I was taught by my piano teacher -- piano performance -- not my music composition orchestration ear training teacher, the former U of MN professor.

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by fulllotusqigong

 

"If you read the Ashram newsletter for Sri Aurobindo you find the same complaint by the older Indian followers of Aurbodindo -- the Westerners come to live in the ashram but just end up shacking up for material desires.

As Buddhist Ch'an master Nan Huai-chin states the spiritual and the worldly do not mix."

Does a tree complain when a bee collects pollen from a flower?

Buddhist Ch'an master Nan Huai-chin is either deluded or stating an extremely profound and otherwise completely obvious fact. Which one is it?

If you read the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" it's stated that alchemy is based on the most shameful thing in life -- and in traditional Chinese culture it is not talked about in public.

So I call this the "secret secretions" paradox. Because "secreted" as two meanings -- one as a fluid and the other as hidden away.

As I have explained -- without being crude or vulgar -- the secret is that the vagus nerve is an internal trigger that shoots the lower body serotonin up the spine into the brain and that the vagus nerve is ionized by ultrasound from the pressure on the collagen and bones creating piezoelectric transduction. So when the neurohormones are ionized then they can bypass the blood brain barrier and the vagus nerve when activated then increases the serotonin levels in the brain.

So celibacy in the West implies someone repressing themselves -- but in the East the secret tantra meaning is more bliss and more fun because the male learns to not trigger the external sympathetic stress nervous system that increases the cortisol. So the male does not need to "sleep" afterwards -- or rebuild his energy. The male can over and over have the internal vagus nerve bliss like a female.

Now so this energy once sublimated has to be purified by the heart and the purification means going into the Emptiness as the formless female awareness. Why female? Because the number one is male and so the source of the number one (which is not a number) is female formless awareness. Why is one not a number -- because this process is eternal and impersonal.

So it's sometimes charged that tantra is misoygnist because it relies on dominating females or some such -- but again to create the healing male electromagnetic energy a person has to go into the formless awareness that is female -- not as female form -- but as the Cosmic Mother that will never be unveiled.

So that is how the sublimated energy is purified or ionized by the heart -- and this also means that as the energy is built up then the feeling of love is stronger and stronger - and so at first it is great amazing desire as bliss attraction energy but when the heart really opens up it turns into electromagnetic love that is so strong it's as if a person needs to be physically interwoven - holographically with the female -- the male electromagnetic energy is holographically interwoven with the female bliss energy.

So in Tantra this is called the Dakini goddess energy -- so in meditation it's called "converting the jing to chi" -- and it enables the person who stays focused on the female formless awareness to not need food nor water no sleep. This is the secret of alchemy -- there is also great internal heat created from the ultrasound sonofusion process.

So the West has lacked yoga because the West has also lacked the secret of complementary opposite resonance as going into nondual consciousness -- so the body needs to be transformed in order to have the energy to then create the spirit body that survives the physical body. So then as the spirit energy is build up there is then long distance healing ability -- because the body becomes holographic as it becomes spiritual. So the external is experienced internally -- and so external blockages are then healed by the Heart as the secret hole to the female formless awareness - the Emptiness or Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

Originally posted by Mary Rose

edit on 03/07/12 by Mary Rose because: Wording

..Weizsacker points out that 'the philosophies are closely related to the grammatical structures of the language. The subject-predicate scheme of Aristotelian logic corresponds to the grammatical structure of the Greek declarative sentence...In his tome, Nietzsche noted that the 'astounding family likeness' seen in Western philosophies could be explained 'simple enough,' namely by their 'unconscious domination by the same grammatical functions'....By way of contrast, the thinking behind the Chinese and Japanese languages do not move in a straight line from the subject to the object with no aid of the verb.

So Bearden uses a classical model that uses scalars which are still symmetric. He refers to quantum physics and earlier I stated this is the paradox of quantum logic. Bearden is trying to apply quantum logic to classic physics. Physics is not united. We're not sure how the secret military technology is used -- but I have seen a big black equilateral triangle fly over our yard -- so I know that it exists -- some sort of secret electrogravitic technology.

Quantum Proof for the Analogy of Living: Another way to understand this whole scenario with the polarization filters is to think of our earlier equation, [H = D Å S], as defining one element by its complimentary opposites. Clearly, [D] and [S] are opposites; and they effectively define the nature of [H], so this should not be that difficult a logical leap to make. ...Now, using the principles of quantum logic, (where incompatible elements cancel one another out), we can expand each of the defined attributes; then cancel out the incompatible aspects, just the way we did earlier with [H = D Å S]:

O.K. so it's the same dialectical process of complementary opposites canceling each other out so that through the void as the quantum infinite potential -- consciousness -- a new harmonic state is created.

I'm talking about sonofusion -- sound going into ultrasound which has subharmonics as ELF waves and this changes the proton bonds as alchemy and free energy.

There is not a Western replication model for this yet -- sonofusion as cold fusion is one model. Electrogravitics is Paul LaViolette and Tom Bearden -- another model. There's also the ultrasound quantum transition model that AlienScientist refers to -- I mentioned it earlier. That is also a classical model. There is the golden ratio quantum chaos model -- again another symmetric classical model.

But the point is that this paradoxical logic must be used due to the time-frequency uncertainty principle.

Someone else claimed to have quoted Plato in this thread -- but never gave the source of the quote. It doesn't matter because as I mention in my masters thesis if a person really studies classical Greek -- it is like the traditional Berber language I mentioned -- not only is it in rhyming verse but each word has up to five different meanings.

This is called "phasis" by Robert Schmidt -- as I mentioned -- it means that Plato can not truly be translated into English with it's dualistic logic from Aristotle. Now some people like Julian Jaynes claims this means the ancients were schizophrenic. I consider that to be racist. I prefer the holographic model of the brain.

Another analysis of Gregory Bateson - -I mentioned his Cretin Paradox analysis and his joke analysis -- both based on the lack of time in the spatial symmetric structure of Western langugage creating a "double bind" -- and Bateson states that schizophrenia is also from this same "double bind" in Western language.

So the holographic model of the brain also deals with these paradoxes of language in the Western model of logic --

Like Zizek's mythic source, George Frazer's classic cultural analysis, The Golden Bough, that was a major influence on Freud, systematically documents the spiritual process of the "killing of the king" (sacrifice) that in the West became transferred to symbolic structures and reified into a closed linear, one order system. The neuropsychologist Karl Pribram, who did pioneering brain and consciousness research and presented a open systems resonance interpretation of the mind, made a similar case: "...when, because of linguistic and cultural affluence, the means-ends reversal occurs, these languages begin to live lives of their own. Thus complexity is compounded and the original organization can easily be lost sight of."(112)

(112) Pribram, Languages of the Brain: experimental paradoxes and principles in neuropsychology (Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hill, Inc., 1971). See also Michael Talbot, The Holographic Universe (NY: HarperCollins Publishers, 1991).

Pribram created the holographic model of the brain stating memory is not stored spatially but rather in time frequency -- nonlocally -- holographically.

reply to post by fulllotusqigong



What is the SIGNIFIGANCE of noncommutative as applied to your theory? Yin and Yang are noncommutative but that doesn't appear to be any problem. You know very well that A x B = B x A IF A = A and B = B. In C to G and then G to C, C does not = C, as they're separated by an octave..The symbol is the same but the value is different. A 4th and 5th are different intervals so why would they ever be expected to be commutative?

Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by fulllotusqigong

 

What is the SIGNIFIGANCE of noncommutative as applied to your theory? Yin and Yang are noncommutative but that doesn't appear to be any problem. You know very well that A x B = B x A IF A = A and B = B. In C to G and then G to C, C does not = C, as they're separated by an octave..The symbol is the same but the value is different. A 4th and 5th are different intervals so why would they ever be expected to be commutative?

edit on 7-3-2012 by DenyObfuscation because: right brain skills applied when left brain skills required

Well sometimes it's necessary for a little remedial education. haha.

O.K. the same "C" -- O.k. -- nothing up my sleeves! haha.

2/3x is F to C now the same C.... again nothing up my sleeves.

3/2x is C to G.

Noncommutative means that there is not a one to one correspondence between number and geometric symbol. Well that's actually incommensurability -- but it's closely tied to noncommutative. Chaos is incommensurability while quantum is noncommutative. So you have the same geometric symbol - C to G as 2:3 and then G to C as 3:4 -- it's noncommutative. C to C is an octave no matter what. C to G is a Perfect Fifth but G to C is a Perfect Fourth. Noncommutative. Different intervals but same geometric symbols -- so the numbers don't line up with the geometric symbols. Noncommutative means if you change the order of the operation then you change the value of the operation. Music intervals are based on "pitch" which is subjective -- hence the Paradox of the Devil's Interval -- the tritone paradox. Is it going up or down in pitch? Depends on where you live and what type of dialect of English you speak. haha. In other words if it's C to F# then it can be heard as C with either number value of the octave -- zero or 1 -- or 2 or 4 -- it doesn't matter -- it's the same geometric symbol and the same interval so the pitch based on tritone demonstrates that the octave doesn't matter from the commutative, logarithmic perspective. This is related to the wavelength versus frequency paradox of Retinex for color perception.

The question is what is "x" -- it never lines up with the natural empirical truth of the overtones. Is "x" zero or 1 -- it is a string? Nope -- that is the mystery of the octave -- the octave expands nonlinearly with the noncommutative or complementary opposite resonance of yin as 3:4 and yang as 2:3. Chinese is not based on phonetic language and so traditional Chinese logic did not use the commutative property. This is also the secret of the "three gunas" of India. It's also the secret to 90% of human history from 100,000 BCE to 10,000 BCE -- a peaceful culture with no warfare living in harmony with ecology.

What is the significance? Well hey! Guess the whole thread for one thing. haha.

The eternal truth?

The secret of the Devil?

How to create alchemical free energy?

Why there is a global ecological and social justice crisis?

It's all in there.

Oh yeah and the Actual Matrix Plan conspiracy based on the commutative incommensurable logarithmic music ratios as Western math.

Deep left brain dominant mind control.

The list goes on and on -- all for free! haha.

O.K. significance.... time to roll the qigong -- Yang is 2:3 and Yin is 3:4 -- time to roll the Pythagorean Tetrad healing videos!

Originally posted by Mary Rose

Instead of (from your OP):

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
Then I discovered the Actual Matrix Plan conspiracy based on the same conspiracy -- corroborating my discovery -- only supporting it.

Originally posted by Mary Rose
Did you mean to say:

"Then I discovered the Actual Matrix Plan conspiracy based on the same conspiracy -- corroborating my discovery."

OR, perhaps you meant to say what you said, and what you were saying was, your discovery was 100% corroborated by the Actual Matrix Plan - no exceptions?

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


The commutative property in math has nothing to do with intervals in a musical scale. To call the relationship between two different intervals noncommutative is as relevant as pointing out the fact that neither interval possesses even a single flavor of the skittles rainbow. Why would you do this?

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
reply to post by rwfresh

 

We are not allowed to talk about the psychedelic plant chemical that is found throughout our bodies and is made from serotonin -- not allowed to talk about it here on abovetopsecret -- but if you read my book I go into the details of it compared to the full lotus third eye qigong training. haha.

We are talking about it Hey can you post the link to your book for me again? Thanks!

So basically the difference is that in qigong the electromagnetic energy is stored up in the lower tan tien - where the parasympathetic means the sympathetic -- but with psychedelic plant chemicals -- the Mind of Nature -- the neurohormones of the body are turned into kundalini which goes straight to the pineal gland to activate the rainbow vortex shen light holographic energy. In other words in alchemy it is kundalini or jing electrochemical serotonin bliss to electromagnetic energy as chi or prana and then to shen or shakti as laser holographic spirit energy.

I hear you. It makes sense. Someone experiences either process. That someone controls/allows/accepts the process. If you are exposed to the result, if you know the destination, finding your way there is easier and sometimes almost automatic upon subsequent visits. If you rely on either path you cannot reside in self. We should acknowledge that "we" are found in none of these energies. I can't help but to point it out, to do otherwise would be lying.

The chi or prana is the power that enables astral travel and strong paranormal powers but the psychedelic plants skip the power and go instead for the rainbow vortex holographic information -- so the experience is that you hear the heart spontaneously emit a OHM sound which is the jing being converted to electromagnetic energy but it goes straight to the rainbow vortex holograph.

Sure.. but the powers themselves are without value and illusory in the context of Truth. Cool though.

This is also the Level 4 rainbow meditation in Spring Forest Qigong. The rainbow vortex being the astral body but again the astral body is powered by the qi or prana electromagnetic energy -- so that's why it's necessary to do the meditation to build up the electromagnetic energy or else when we die we just become ghosts experiencing a healing dream of life review and get embraced back into the impersonal consciousness white/black hole vortex that then shoots us back out into another form of physical life. haha.

As a ghost, caught in the drama of delusion it may seem preferable to be an astral body.. Just as a human it may seem preferable to be strong and athletic as opposed to being a paraplegic. But all of these preferences are in the context of time. And as a result completely and totally temporal and illusory. Your true nature is neither a ghost, a human, an astral body.. Hormones or chemicals or energies. If you do not focus on what is Real you will build attachment to illusion. Which clearly we are all currently bound to.

Don't get me wrong. I have absolutely no doubt that levitation, spontaneous healing, astral projection, seeing spirits/ghosts are "real". But they are real in the context of delusion. As real as the experience of being a human working at creating an astral body, maintaining health and longevity, being "good". None of these things exist in Reality.

Scientists study the body and say "his heart stopped because of a build up of cholesterol", gurus say "he achieved immortality because of his practice, his "kundalini or jing electrochemical serotonin bliss to electromagnetic energy as chi or prana and then to shen or shakti as laser holographic spirit energy because of his practice". It may seem that as a result of your practice you have achieved something. But in what context? What was achieved?

If i have downs syndrome can i become Einstein with practice? If i am three feet tall can i become a professional basketball player with practice? If my gonads were removed because of an accident can i build an astral body and achieve liberation through practice? We can't rely on what is not real to become Real.

And again, i am not saying that with practice you will not experience the things you are talking about. Some will. Some won't. Some can't. So long as "we" are in time, we will continue to move forward. We are in the river until we are the river and when we are the river we always were eternally.

People complain about religion because they often use fear of hell to "control" people into participating. Mystics will explain the same motivation with different symbolism. Not all of them.. but some. That is why i ask what the benefit is? I'm not sold on the super powers.. and I'm not worried about being a ghost. Not saying it won't be difficult. But what can motivate the Truth out of me?

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong

If you read the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" it's stated that alchemy is based on the most shameful thing in life -- and in traditional Chinese culture it is not talked about in public.

So I call this the "secret secretions" paradox. Because "secreted" as two meanings -- one as a fluid and the other as hidden away.

As I have explained -- without being crude or vulgar -- the secret is that the vagus nerve is an internal trigger that shoots the lower body serotonin up the spine into the brain and that the vagus nerve is ionized by ultrasound from the pressure on the collagen and bones creating piezoelectric transduction. So when the neurohormones are ionized then they can bypass the blood brain barrier and the vagus nerve when activated then increases the serotonin levels in the brain.

So celibacy in the West implies someone repressing themselves -- but in the East the secret tantra meaning is more bliss and more fun because the male learns to not trigger the external sympathetic stress nervous system that increases the cortisol. So the male does not need to "sleep" afterwards -- or rebuild his energy. The male can over and over have the internal vagus nerve bliss like a female.

Now so this energy once sublimated has to be purified by the heart and the purification means going into the Emptiness as the formless female awareness. Why female? Because the number one is male and so the source of the number one (which is not a number) is female formless awareness. Why is one not a number -- because this process is eternal and impersonal.

So it's sometimes charged that tantra is misoygnist because it relies on dominating females or some such -- but again to create the healing male electromagnetic energy a person has to go into the formless awareness that is female -- not as female form -- but as the Cosmic Mother that will never be unveiled.

So the West has lacked yoga because the West has also lacked the secret of complementary opposite resonance as going into nondual consciousness -- so the body needs to be transformed in order to have the energy to then create the spirit body that survives the physical body. So then as the spirit energy is build up there is then long distance healing ability -- because the body becomes holographic as it becomes spiritual. So the external is experienced internally -- and so external blockages are then healed by the Heart as the secret hole to the female formless awareness - the Emptiness or Nirvikalpa Samadhi.

edit on 7-3-2012 by fulllotusqigong because: (no reason given)

So we have a desire for sex which is temporarily satisfying. And when the satisfaction of this is experienced as fleeting we move to replace that satisfaction with something else. Same with drugs etc. You chase the satisfaction until death, repress it or see through it and replace it. When you are satisfied by something, no one can tell you anything is better. Like a drug addict who shoots heroin for the first time and has an amazing experience. While the experience is happening you might suggest to them a burger and fries is the best most satisfying thing they will ever experience. How will you convince them?

If they enjoyed the experience they will promote the experience because they believe their experience. They will do it again unless they repress it or are satisfied elsewhere. It's all heroin. Whatever one we are on is the best.

Yes repression happens and it is not sustainable and it is painful. Spontaneous, effortless celibacy happens as well because satisfaction lies elsewhere. Have some found eternal bliss or a longer lasting heroin? Until you take that ultimate hit it may be difficult to see through attachment. Or maybe Truth does it for it's own self.

The thing i am trying to point out is this.. If we define the process as being the cause of the experience it won't be long until the alchemical process is reproduced through technology. And this has been the complaint about drug experiences in contrast to meditation/yoga etc. One is western music and the other is eastern. Now, technology will seek to observe the parts of the process and stimulate each step to artificially produce the experience and then claim the experience itself is not True because it can be induced. There is a push to scientifically verify qigong in recent years. Where is this headed? As usual, focusing on the process, defining every little detail, associating physical and energy to the experience leads to artificially inducing it. End result is an artificial/counterfeit experience. Unless i am mistaken the goal is Eternity.

I've got the book.. and i am reading it through! I'm not the smartest guy in the world so i have to admit the first 30 pages are a bit dry. I think working with a Master for a single session would be more "beneficial" . Going to give it a try!

Peace

Well sometimes it's necessary for a little remedial education. haha. O.K. the same "C" -- O.k. -- nothing up my sleeves! haha. 2/3x is F to C now the same C.... again nothing up my sleeves. 3/2x is C to G. Noncommutative means that there is not a one to one correspondence between number and geometric symbol. Well that's actually incommensurability -- but it's closely tied to noncommutative. Chaos is incommensurability while quantum is noncommutative. So you have the same geometric symbol - C to G as 2:3 and then G to C as 3:4 -- it's noncommutative. C to C is an octave no matter what. C to G is a Perfect Fifth but G to C is a Perfect Fourth. Noncommutative. Different intervals but same geometric symbols -- so the numbers don't line up with the geometric symbols. Noncommutative means if you change the order of the operation then you change the value of the operation. Music intervals are based on "pitch" which is subjective -- hence the Paradox of the Devil's Interval -- the tritone paradox. Is it going up or down in pitch? Depends on where you live and what type of dialect of English you speak. haha. In other words if it's C to F# then it can be heard as C with either number value of the octave -- zero or 1 -- or 2 or 4 -- it doesn't matter -- it's the same geometric symbol and the same interval so the pitch based on tritone demonstrates that the octave doesn't matter from the commutative, logarithmic perspective. This is related to the wavelength versus frequency paradox of Retinex for color perception.

Uhh....so in a nutshell, your discovery is that C going a fifth either way ends on two different notes (F to C, C to G)? Really? If so, then you've missed a critical point I saw ages ago in this point, you are measuring one thing using another, non applicable standard. Measuring pounds with a thermometer.

If your point is that, using C as a starting point, that F# has some unique quality because it is more dead center then you are really just talking about our western method being off in practice.

Interesting point, halfway between octaves on a stringed instrument lies the fourth. If you lightly touch the string at this point, an octave harmonic will ring. If we use frequencies, say 440hz to 880hz (octave), half way between is a fifth, 660hz. This will occur regardless of string length or frequency used.

Could you please answer this? In your thought process, do we get a proper and true octave by doubling, exactly the frequency of a given note ie. 440hz to 880hz? Or do you think it should be somewhat different?

By the way, saying sound should not be measured because it is our conscience that perceives it is bulldada. We can measure sound, we can 'see' sound, we know how sound works and is perceived physically. That is no more different than saying light can't be measured because it isn't a tangible, we only perceive it in our subconscious. If we're going all woo-woo, let's go full woo-woo, leave science out. If we're going to use science, then let's not dismiss it willy nilly to suit.

Which makes me think this is why the OP dismisses using hertz in his theory. When we move up in pitch, frequency greatly increases, this is why is can't go in both directions, it is not, nor can never be an even progression because nature herself does not work that way. A very low C is only separated by 2hz to the next note up, C#. A higher C is separated by 8hz from C#. A yet higher C is separated by 52hz from the C#. It only increases going up, decreases going down as per natural law of sound. Using Cents is a different matter of course. Cents has no relationship to the actual natural occurrence of sound.

reply to post by UncleV


Interesting...

Could you possibly have a look at my Harmonics thread? I would be interested in hearing your insights.

Originally posted by UncleV

Uhh....so in a nutshell, your discovery is that C going a fifth either way ends on two different notes (F to C, C to G)? Really? If so, then you've missed a critical point I saw ages ago in this point, you are measuring one thing using another, non applicable standard. Measuring pounds with a thermometer.

If your point is that, using C as a starting point, that F# has some unique quality because it is more dead center then you are really just talking about our western method being off in practice.

Interesting point, halfway between octaves on a stringed instrument lies the fourth. If you lightly touch the string at this point, an octave harmonic will ring. If we use frequencies, say 440hz to 880hz (octave), half way between is a fifth, 660hz. This will occur regardless of string length or frequency used.

Could you please answer this? In your thought process, do we get a proper and true octave by doubling, exactly the frequency of a given note ie. 440hz to 880hz? Or do you think it should be somewhat different?

By the way, saying sound should not be measured because it is our conscience that perceives it is bulldada. We can measure sound, we can 'see' sound, we know how sound works and is perceived physically. That is no more different than saying light can't be measured because it isn't a tangible, we only perceive it in our subconscious. If we're going all woo-woo, let's go full woo-woo, leave science out. If we're going to use science, then let's not dismiss it willy nilly to suit.

Which makes me think this is why the OP dismisses using hertz in his theory. When we move up in pitch, frequency greatly increases, this is why is can't go in both directions, it is not, nor can never be an even progression because nature herself does not work that way. A very low C is only separated by 2hz to the next note up, C#. A higher C is separated by 8hz from C#. A yet higher C is separated by 52hz from the C#. It only increases going up, decreases going down as per natural law of sound. Using Cents is a different matter of course. Cents has no relationship to the actual natural occurrence of sound.

Right -- the 2/3x as F to C is a subharmonic of the natural overtone series of C to G as 3/2x. But this is based on the fractions being the frequency not the wavelength -- so for the Perfect Fourth the Law of Pythagoras as frequency inverse to wavelength does not hold. This is because of time-frequency uncertainty.

When I say consciousness can not measure sound I mean that mathematically the natural overtones of the Perfect Fifth and Octave never line up -- and so the Western system is to ignore this empirical truth -- dismiss it -- and then double the subharmonic of C to G as 3:2 -- take the subharmonic as 2:3 and double it -- even though the subharmonic is something we listen to -- not something we measure visually with a string.

So the "order of infinity" has to be reversed -- a subharmonic is taken of the Perfect Fifth and then doubled as the Perfect Fourth as the frequency. This process then is applied again so that the Perfect Fifth is doubled or squared as 9:4 and the halved back into the octave as 9:8 the major second. Then the Perfect Fifth doubling or squaring continues. So that 9/8 cubed is the square root of two based on the process of squaring the Perfect Fifth. But the Tritone as the square root of two is "incommensurable" -- it never lines up with the actual geometric symbols.

We can obviously hear the pitch -- when listening to subharmonics and overtones -- we can hear that the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth are complementary opposites -- but geometrically they are not logarithms to be evenly divided into the octave. The numbers mathematically never line up with the octaves. So the West then equates geometric length with arithmetic number as distance. This is logically an error -- as I referred earlier to Professor Philip Hugly and Charles Sayward's paper "Did the Greeks Discover the Irrational?" (Philosophy, Spring 1999). The answer being:

Nope.

haha. So logically the square root of two doesn't exist. So logically the tritone does not exist.

Sure we can "measure" all we want -- but with what results? Who exactly hears the sound? When I say consciousness I don't mean the left-brain with words that analyzes things -- I mean listening as right-brain dominant and the continued process of listening as the ultrasound creating ELF subharmonics.

So now science has proven the music activates our dopamine which causes internal tingling as frisson. My position is that this listening experience is from the higher frequencies being closer together -- as you have pointed out -- but this also creates more "beats" as subharmonics which have a stronger amplitude. So this is how the ultrasound ionizes the electrochemicals - -the serotonin then is the inverse of the dopamine but both are through the vagus nerve.

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
The numbers mathematically never line up with the octaves.

Is this the Pythagorean comma?

Can you explain what doesn't line up with what?

reply to post by rwfresh


Yeah so in the beginning of "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" it states that the mind needs to go into the Emptiness -- this is called the -- well the term used slipped me -- but it's asked later in the book about the need to continue focusing on the emptiness.

Actually when we use our mind to listen to the source of our thoughts -- listening - -all thoughts are based on the I-thought and so we repeat I-I-I and focus on the I-thought and then it concentrates in our mind and we continue listening to the source of the I-thought. This process is taught by Ramana Maharshi who then states to also focus on the right side of the heart.

So this process as mind yoga is left-brain dominant because the left vagus nerve goes directly to the heart -- so it's called the "direct path." But it's also the hardest practice because the power of the mind is very weak and it needs to be powered by the heart.

So to increase the heart power there is deep reverse breathing which then pushes up the life force electrochemicals of the body -- the serotonin bliss energy -- and this goes into the brain via the vagus nerve again but this is the right brain vagus nerve going down to the reproductive organs.

So actually the listening process also hears a very high pitch sound and this is the piezoelectric transduction of ultrasound from the yin-yang dynamics of the practice - the bones and collagen when under pressure create the ultrasound.

So then the heart is the ELF wave that also can be listened to -- and as the heart beat slows down then the power of the electromagnetic increases. Now since it's linked to the desire of the life force neurohormones or electrochemicals -- this increases the bliss and love so that the heart is overwhelming with love.

But the love is called "over-excitement" in Taoism and Mahayana Buddhism -- it's still considered a lower emotion that needs to be overcome. So when the water energy (the life force fluids) get pushed above the fire energy (the fusion of the lower organ emotional energy of the heart creating electromagnetic energy) -- then this yin chi (water) combining with yang chi (fire) causes an alchemical explosion as the "prenatal chi" or spirit shen energy.

So what needs to be realized is that the opposite of the over-excitement love of the heart is the strong heart break emotion -- and so both of these very strong emotions need to be over-powered by the electromagnetic energy that opens up the pineal gland. So the love emotion is there as the power of the heart but it is turning into electromagnetic energy and then this electromagnetic energy needs to be stored below the heart so that it doesn't create too much over-excitement.

So the mind as focused on the Emptiness needs to guide the heart because the heart on its own is just a source of strong power but the Heart does not know the difference between good and bad or right and wrong - because it is the strong emotions without the mind to guide it.

So the Emptiness is the ultimate guide of the power of the heart as the Emptiness is the mind without any intentions to do anything -- it is just focused on our true Being. So this is the Three in One secret -- the Bliss of the Heart, the Emptiness as the source of consciousness, and the physical Being combined with the Bliss and Emptiness.

When the consciousness goes into the Emptiness this creates the spirit shen or prenatal chi energy -- so this is the spirit light. As Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality emphasizes if a person goes into the void but there is no spirit light energy created then this is a false void -- a false emptiness. This is what can happen with "Dead Tree Zen" as Master Nan, Huai-chin calls it -- because if a person just practices mind yoga without transforming the body then they don't have the power of the life force energy -- the lunar water energy -- to combine with the fire solar energy of the heart.

If the fire is below the water then it creates the electromagnetic chi energy -- and burns away the material desires -- literally burns away -- so it creates great heat. This is the sonofusion ionization process.

So the trick is the reverse breathing to get the water life force fluids above the fire desire of the heart -- and then this also puts out the fire so to speak and then the energy is to be safely stored in the lower tan tien which is below and behind the navel.

You would also want to read Mantak Chia's book on the small universe practice freely available here

Originally posted by Mary Rose

Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
The numbers mathematically never line up with the octaves.

Is this the Pythagorean comma?

Can you explain what doesn't line up with what?

Yeah -- I hope people don't mind me repeating here -- since this is back in the thread but I realize people have interest in this topic for different reasons and then later on spiral back to other facets. haha.

The Sacred in Music By Albert L. Blackwell on googlebooks -- Pythagorean comma and infinity

So that book acknowledges the Pythagorean Comma as the secret to the religious experience in music -- and then quotes Mehudin on Indian tuning -- stating that it's based on the natural overtones of the Perfect Fifth -- but that the best approach based on the Christian experience is the "temperament" advocated by Plato. haha.

Al-Kemi: Hermetic, Occult, Political, and Private Aspects of R. A. Schwaller ... By André VandenBroeck

Wow who would guess that the Synarchist founded of Egyptology and supporter of the Nazis has a book about him and the Pythagorean Comma?

So he quotes Schwaller stating that the Pythagorean Comma "arrests" the Zodiac -- (yes it is based on the Solar ritual priests)....

What is less so is the development that makes the diabolus rise out of this system. What else can this devil be but the destruction of a rational structure incorporated into the very structure from the beginning, as a price of the beginning, so to speak?

Yeah so again the Taoist qigong healing is based on yin as 3:4 and yang as 2:3 -- without the irrational number as the Devil -- but as you can see the esoteric New Age supporter of Fascism and Egyptology thinks that the devil is a necessary evil to maintain the rational enlightenment. haha.

The irony being that 2/3 was the sacred ratio in Egypt -- the always remainder of their math -- yet Egypt did not have the irrational numbers of the Golden Ratio, etc. -- and the Egyptians were against the notion of a series being geometrically contained -- with geometric length as the irrational number of infinite arithemetic time.

You say the harmonics/octave never line up but that's not true. Maybe using the Pythagorean method, yes and I believe this is what leads to the Pythagorean comma Mary mentions. However, using hertz, which is simply counting the beats it does.

So, my question was, are you saying that a frequency doubled (or halved) exactly is not a true octave?

The problem with the hard fractions is they only work partially in sound. However, counting the vibrations per second (hertz) gives us a standard with which to work in real, factual numbers. Provable and repeatable. Music and scales are indeed imperfect because they are compromised to fit the needs of the performer/instrument. I think we all agree on this. However, nature itself through the harmonic overtone series found on any tone leads to some hard truths. The third overtone is a fifth for example. They line up mathematically quite nicely. Only until you get into the upper level of harmonics do you see them not line up.

This is why a fifth and an octave sound so well, nice even frequency relationship, naturally occurring and measurable.

You say we can hear that the fourth and fifth are complimentary opposites. What exactly do you mean by this? What is 'opposite' in music?

reply to post by fulllotusqigong


But what exactly is it that doesn't line up?

Originally posted by UncleV
... They line up mathematically quite nicely. Only until you get into the upper level of harmonics do you see them not line up. This is why a fifth and an octave sound so well, nice even frequency relationship, naturally occurring and measurable. You say we can hear that the fourth and fifth are complimentary opposites. What exactly do you mean by this? What is 'opposite' in music?

Complementary opposites to the octave and never lining up with the octave as the perfect fifth and perfect fourth expand as subharmonics and harmonic overtones.

So that's why it's an "infinite spiral of fifths."

Hertz is frequency as measured by seconds which is time.

I linked a previous study critiquing the "beats" model by Helmholtz on harmony. So that same study also proved that the brain's neurons are resonated by the Perfect Fifth/Perfect Fourth/Octave harmonics.

So then when this thread discussed the golden ratio -- I pointed out that in chaos nonlinear resonance the natural rational fractions are considered too powerful -- they resonate too much. So the Golden Ratio is used since it is the slowest to geometrically converge.

But when talking about consciousness as alchemy we are not talking about geometry converging -- instead it's an infinite process of no beginning and no ending.

As I stated the music listens to us -- that is the process of consciousness.

So we can't isolate frequency from time -- Hertz is frequency but it's measured in time. So the closer or small the time period to be measured the more widespread and less accurate the frequency measurement is.

But that is just a "snapshot" of the time-frequency uncertainty. So then there was developed "wavelet" analysis which states that the average time of measure is proportional to the frequency being measured -- to make the analysis of frequency more accurate.

But what I'm saying is that in the higher harmonics the "noise" creates a nonlinear amplification -- this is currently used as "stochastic resonance" in chaos science -- the subject of Bart Kosko's book Noise.

The awkward term “stochastic resonance” stems from a 1981 article in which physicists observed “the cooperative effect between internal mechanism and the external periodic forcing” in some nonlinear dynamical systems [13]. Scientists soon explored SR in climate models [195] to explain how noise could induce periodic ice ages [11], [12], [193], [194]. They conjectured that global or other noise sources could amplify small periodic variations in the Earth’s orbit.

So if we consider that the term "second" originates from the geometric measurements for the Solar calendar -- we need to consider the time is nonlinear -- time is asymmetric.

You're wondering if the octave as hertz is real or not or whether the octave should be defined by the spiral of fifths expanding the octave value or decreasing it....but the real issue is the noise between the two and the subharmonic beats as a significant amplitude resonance.

Fourier techniques may not extend well to the general case or broadband or nonperiodic forcing signals found in many nonlinear and nonstationary environments. Wavelet transforms [54], [138], [234], [237] may offer better ways to measure SR effects in these cases when nonperiodic signals drive nonlinear dynamical systems. Wavelet transforms can adaptively localize nonperiodic signals in both time and frequency. Fourier techniques tend to localize periodic signals either in frequency or in time. Arbitrary or random broadband signals may require new techniques to detect these signals and extract their key statistical features from their noisy dynamical backgrounds.

From one of Kosko's papers on stochastic resonance

O.K. but the Law of Phase Harmony shows at zero frequency phase time is infinite and this is a paradox of relativity -- so there is no material beginning of sound -- "one" is not a number -- that's why the Harmonic Series is the invention of the Devil. Consciousness is a signal but not energy-mass. O.K. so in relativity as the frequency goes up so does the wavelength since time slows down -- and this goes against the Law of Pythagoras of inverse frequency and wavelength. This is also the same paradox as when the subharmonic of C to G is used as a lower frequency to get 4/3, C to F, as a higher frequency -- the Perfect Fourth -- even though the wavelength is longer for a frequency (subharmonic) of 2/3. So you get a higher frequency (4/3) and a higher (longer) wavelength as time - in violation of the Law of Pythgoras. So it's not just beats per second -- it is nonlinear amplification. The real reason is because the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth are noncommutative and so to measure time and frequency by logarithmic wavelength assumes the commutative property. Quantum potential as the superliminal pilot wave is also noncommutative.

Originally posted by Mary Rose
reply to post by fulllotusqigong

 

But what exactly is it that doesn't line up?

Infratonic technology is a patented chaotic sound wave in the range of 8.5-13.8 Hertz. It is highly effective in treating pain, inflammation and swelling, and also for calming therapies. The infratonic unit is small and very easy to use. The settings are high, medium, and low. We use the high settings to treat directly on the body, unless you get the odd horse who is too sensitive, but most horses love the high setting and relax immediately.

**Infrasound therapy differs from therapeutic ultrasound in that the sound waves travel through the air. Therapeutic ultrasound must have transmission gel or water to transmit the sound waves. The infratonic produces a very low-level frequency sound, in the range of 8.5-14 Hertz. Therapeutic ultrasound produces a sound wave of 45 Kilo Hertz to 3 Mega Hertz. Ultrasound, if used incorrectly, can cause tissue damage. Therefore, they are two very different modalities, although they both use sound waves.

O.K. so the Chi Insitute is using "chaotic" infrasound for healing in contrast to ultrasound

Now it's mentioned ultrasound can cause damage -- so I'm talking about ultrasound cavitation -- acoustic cavitation as creating sonofusion.

The best biological description of this I've found is from CIA mind control scientist Dr. Andrija Puharich's ELF magnetic moment proton model -- that I quoted earlier in the thread.

So he's saying that the ELF frequency wavelength of the proton is half the distance of the solar system.

He's saying that this ELF frequency can then break up proton bonds as a sonofusion process -- and he then patented the same process for water hydrogen fuel for a car engine.

So in sonofusion some claim it is a space-time bending -- as I quote in my book -- and that would be a classical relativity analysis of sonofusion. Others claim it is quantum.

But physics is not united due to time-frequency uncertainty. It is inherently unknown "what" is measured -- until the measurement happens.

I'm saying no measurement is needed -- the qigong and meditation -- and nonwestern trance -- relies on listening with no limitations.

So it is both external and internal and holographic while consciousness is nondual -- so it is neither internal nor external but it is an eternal process of listening.

Consciousness can never be measured by technology due to the inherent time-frequency uncertainty which is the same reason that the octave will never line up with the Perfect Fifth/Perfect Fourth.

So here is new software that constantly retunes the pitch intervals to maintain the Just rational fraction harmonics

But what I'm saying is that digital sampling, just as Dale Pond exposes in the video lecture I linked -- digital sampling is inherently based on a "divide and average" time sampling.

So I'm not talking about measuring sound through technology -- I'm talking about listening to the source of sound -- and I'm saying if we are honest about the source of sound then it has no end and no beginning.

Here's this issue from the perspective of Indian music scales:

The fifth consonance (tamizh iLi) is based on the ratio 3/2 and the fourth consonance (tamizh natpu) is based on the ratio 4/3. Note that these consonances are reciprocal to each other. sa : pa = 3/2, but pa : sa (higher octave) = 4/3. Bharata combines these in the phrase vadi-samvadi. Thus the cycle of fourths is not independent of the cycle of fifths. If we start from ni, and proceed by a cycle of fifths, we get ni - ma - sa - pa - Ri - Dha - Ga, i.e. we have obtained all seven notes in an octave. The other notes are obtained by carrying through this cycle once more to get Ga - Ni - Ma - ri - dha - ga. This may have been the basis for reckoning an octave from ni rather than sa in olden times. In fact the tamizh scales pAlaiyAzh, marutayAzh etc. were obtained by precisely this method. However one must remember that these cycles can theoretically be carried on ad infinitum, because they will never give the correct value of 2 for the octave. They are based on a geometric series with a ratio 3/2 (or 3/4 in order to keep each term between 1 and 2). As such the number 2 is the limit of these cycles. Which is why the two cycles stop making practical sense beyond the first few terms. How many is few? The very fourth and fifth terms in the fifths cycle generate a dissonance with the notes obtained from the fifth harmonic, so that beyond the seventh or eighth term, we should probably not stick to this cycle.

So it's acknowledged that arithmetically this cycle continues infinitely

The Platonic Year or the Pythagorean Great Year The cycle of fifths can continue much further than the twelfth fifth (note 13), where we are back to the fundamental but it is 23.5 cent higher (5.88 savarts) than the fundamental, a Pythagorean Comma higher. The following 12 fifths will place themselves one comma above the former ones, so the 24th fifth (note 25) will be one comma above note 13, or 2 commas, 11.74 savarts, above the fundamental, C++. In this way successive series of twelve fifths will be placed one above the other at one comma intervals, up to the 52en fifth (note 53). At this stage, after the 52nd fifth, the octave is filled up (52 x 5.88 savarts) and the 53rd fifth, (note 54) comes out of the octave and inserts itself between the fundamental and the 12th fifths, thus forming, above the fundamental a small interval of 0,84 savarts. Thus begins a new cycle, which in its turn, with a period of 53 fifths, will divide the octave into small intervals of 0,84 savarts The next cycle will appear during the seventh series of 53 fifths, when the 359 fifths (note 360) comes out of the octave and forms with the fundamental, a new even smaller interval of 0.47 savarts.(since the comma of 0.88 savarts is 7 times smaller, 7 series of 53 fifths is needed to fill the octave). Then there is a cycle of 666 notes with a basis interval of 0.035 savarts. When we come to the cycle of 25,524 notes with a basic interval of 0.002174 savarts, it begins to be interesting, since this cycle is near the precession of equinoxes or the Pythagorean Great Year, which is 25,920 solar years. (The numbers of fifths are based on Alain Daniélou's calculations in "Music and the Power of Sounds").