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Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
reply to post by DenyObfuscation
Nope -- because it was started by Plato and Archytas and then continued by Euxodus, a student of Archytas and then Euclid and Aristotle who worked for Alexander.
So basically the geometry "hides" the discovery of incommensurability in music ratios which is a logical paradox -- an error of logic, enabling Western math.
We can say -- yes irrational numbers work -- but they work at a great expense -- as a logical lie. So for whom do they work? They work to make destructive imperial technology to extract resources while ignoring the true costs. How do we know this? Because of the structural lie as a "deep disharmony" of mathematics. Math is not pure. The irrational number as the Devil's Interval is a logical lie hiding the noncommutative time-frequency uncertainty. This is a very simple yet very deep and radical conspiracy. It's so simple yet so deep that people don't see it.
This logical lie is the noncommutative relation of the Perfect Fifth and Perfect Fourth. So 2/3 as the Perfect Fifth is not allowed because it does not work in the commutative "means" or "divide and average" equation.
As a "divide and average" it is no different than the previous "divide and average" math of the earlier Solar dynasty priesthoods -- but Archytas and Eudoxus then added the geometric mean equation so it's arithmetic mean times harmonic mean equals geometric mean squared.
Plato then only allowed the major and minor modes in music as they are closest to the scale created by a "divide and average" means equation.
This also entailed using a "negative infinity" as the incommensurability root -- whether it's zero or the square root of two -- so Aristotle was against "negative infinity" and so this delayed the Greek Miracle until Platonic mathematics was transferred back into Europe via the Arabs.
edit on 11-3-2012 by fulllotusqigong because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by UncleV
A circle of fifths backwards is a circle of fourths however that is based on simple note name. When we talk about the overtone series ex. 100hz, 200hz, 300hz, etc. you could say, going backwards that 300hz to 200hz is a fourth. But we tend to move forward in naming intervals in a case like this, so it is relative I suppose. You, if I'm understanding you correctly, are basing each instance off of the same note, let's say 100hz. However, each possible frequency stands alone. So, since there is no one frequency (I believe we ALL agree to that) each fundamental frequency and the overtone relationships stands alone, unique.
A starting frequency of 120hz gives overtone series of 240hz, 360hz, 480hz, etc.
A starting frequency of 27hz gives overtone series of 54hz, 81hz, 108hz, etc.
So while we can find a fifth, etc. we should start fresh for each instance. So, the fifth found in 120hz of 360hz (in relation to the octave of 240hz) should become the new starting frequency for the relationships of that note, 360hz.
frequency = velocity / wavelength
is equal to the phase velocity v of the wave divided by the wavelength λ of the wave:
In 1994 Günter Nimtz and Horst Aichmann carried out a tunneling experiment at the laboratories of Hewlett-Packard after which Nimtz stated that the frequency modulated (FM) carrier wave transported the 40th symphony of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 4.7 times faster than light due to the effect of quantum tunneling.
However, Nimtz highlights that eventually the final tunneling time was always obtained by the Wigner phase time approach. In [6] and [17] Günter Nimtz outlines that such evanescent modes only exist in the classically forbidden region of energy. As a consequence they cannot be explained by classical physics nor by special relativity postulates: A negative energy of evanescent modes follows from the imaginary wave number, i.e. from the imaginary refractive index according to the Maxwell relation n := \sqrt[\epsilon_r\mu_r] for electromagnetic and elastic fields. In his latest publication [22] Günter Nimtz again explicitly points out that tunneling indeed confronts special relativity and that any other statement must be considered incorrect. [edit] Related experiments It was later claimed by the Keller group in Switzerland that particle tunneling does indeed occur in zero real time.
So basically the geometry "hides" the discovery of incommensurability in music ratios which is a logical paradox -- an error of logic, enabling Western math.
The image you post is spatial - music is in time not space -- again C to G is 2:3 and G to C is 3:4 -- any musician knows that the G to C interval is a Perfect Fourth -- not a Perfect Fifth. Nice try though.
Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by fulllotusqigong
So basically the geometry "hides" the discovery of incommensurability in music ratios which is a logical paradox -- an error of logic, enabling Western math.
What geometry? I thought we're talking about music.Geometry is spatial. Didn't you dismiss my illustration as spatial?
The image you post is spatial - music is in time not space -- again C to G is 2:3 and G to C is 3:4 -- any musician knows that the G to C interval is a Perfect Fourth -- not a Perfect Fifth. Nice try though.
If you want to talk about commutative AxB=BxA if A=A and B=B. Now if C4 to G4 is 2:3 what difference does it make what G4 to C5 is or what G3 to C4 is? Doesn't any musician know that? I'm not aware of the commutative property of addition or multiplication being applicable to a musical scale anymore than to subtraction or division.
Noncommutative geometry is spatial and music is not, right?
And again, if the arbitrary assignment of letters to the scale were not as so then what conspiracy would you have? C4 is not C5.
The book Triangle of Thoughts (2000) by top French quantum chaos mathematicians Alain Connes, Andrew Lichnerowicz and Marcel Paul Schutzenberger (M.P.S.) ends with a promotion of music theory as the secret key to solving humanity’s problems. The argument by Alain Connes is that music transmitted aurally is currently in the same stage as when people read out loud — as they did until the 12th Century A.D. Connes states people could, as conductor Solti did, read music scores and hear multiple texts in their head “that is inscribed in a time that would no longer be sequential, because a score is a multitude of chords, a tangle projected onto physical time of course, but that manifestly evolves in an higher dimensional space, giving rise to a variability much more pertinent to the description of individual time.”406
Alain Connes continues: And it could be formalized by music….I think we might succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which several states coexist, whereas our ordinary logic allows room for only one. Finally, we come back to the problem of adaptation, which has to be resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally schizoid in nature. It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer science. That will no doubt enable us to cross new borders and to better integrate the mathematical formalism of the quantum world into our metaphysical system.
In noncommutative geometry as developed by Alain Connes, 1 + 1 does not equal 2! Similarly the octave, 2, does not divide evenly or symmetrically between the Perfect fifth (C to G) and the Perfect fourth (G to C). In noncommutative harmonic analysis there is a reliance on finite topology instead of the infinite series of Fourier analysis. While noncommutative harmonic analysis is crucial to the Actual Matrix Plan, again the key difference is that it still relies on a Freemasonic “containment of infinity” just as Fourier analysis relies on inherent symmetry. All Western math is based on a “one to one correspondence” of phonetic symbol geometry back to number – even if it is noncommutative and infinite. In contrast nonwestern music relies on logical inference of infinity – the structure of nonwestern music inherently can not be visualized nor contained but it can be listened to or logically inferred.
So even the use of non-commutative is only to demonstrate that it does not work for Western mathematics.
Originally posted by fulllotusqigong
reply to post by Americanist
Pressing a button with phase is not playing music.
I'm talking about listening to the source of sound. No instrument needed.
But hey if you really want to press a phase button -- by all means:
In 1994 Günter Nimtz and Horst Aichmann carried out a tunneling experiment at the laboratories of Hewlett-Packard after which Nimtz stated that the frequency modulated (FM) carrier wave transported the 40th symphony of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 4.7 times faster than light due to the effect of quantum tunneling.
However, Nimtz highlights that eventually the final tunneling time was always obtained by the Wigner phase time approach. In [6] and [17] Günter Nimtz outlines that such evanescent modes only exist in the classically forbidden region of energy. As a consequence they cannot be explained by classical physics nor by special relativity postulates: A negative energy of evanescent modes follows from the imaginary wave number, i.e. from the imaginary refractive index according to the Maxwell relation n := sqrt[epsilon_rmu_r] for electromagnetic and elastic fields. In his latest publication [22] Günter Nimtz again explicitly points out that tunneling indeed confronts special relativity and that any other statement must be considered incorrect. [edit] Related experiments It was later claimed by the Keller group in Switzerland that particle tunneling does indeed occur in zero real time.
Zero time. Zero phase. Or Superliminal Phase if you will:
Phase Velocity of de Broglie Waves
Superliminal phase as consciousness.
Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by fulllotusqigong
So even the use of non-commutative is only to demonstrate that it does not work for Western mathematics.
I'm just trying to point out why it "doesn't work". Noncommutative seems an illogical description TO ME which is why I keep trying to find out the signifigance of that label. In light of the fact that you call yin and yang noncommutative and I assume yin and yang are important to your beliefs I'm completely confused by what appears to be a criticism when it's western but somehow a positive thing for eastern.
The central question in the analysis of the noncommutative leaf space of a foliation is step 3) (of section 2), namely the metric aspect which entails in particular constructing a spectral triple describing the transverse geometry. The reason why the problem is really difficult is that it essentially amounts to doing “metric” geometry on manifolds in a way which is “background independent” to use the terminology of physicists i.e. which is invariant under diffeomorphisms rather than covariant as in traditional Riemannian geometry. Indeed the transverse space of a foliation is a manifold endowed with the action of a large pseudo group of partial diffeomorphisms implementing the holonomy.
Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by fulllotusqigong
practice is practice in the context of time.. so i guess i will practice if time allows. Right? Maybe i can make time for some practice?
I'm a non-existent being with the ability to experience (a reflection of) eternity in the context of time.
Not THE eternal being (Truth) experiencing time.
Hard to admit i know.. impossible really.. non-commutative i guess.
I remember thinking, if the Devil is that good, I don't have a chance
But it's wrong -- it goes against the real mathematics because the ratio 2:3 does not divide equally into 1:2
Originally posted by DenyObfuscation
reply to post by fulllotusqigong
This is from page 2, didn't catch it before.
But it's wrong -- it goes against the real mathematics because the ratio 2:3 does not divide equally into 1:2
Did you mean to say this? Isn't 1/2 divided by 2/3 equal to 3/4? Does this matter? Did I miscalculate?
Significantly the division of the fourth and fifth is by the harmonic mean. (8) From Archytas' writings this might well be expected, for it was he who renamed the subcontrary mean harmonic because of its use in music, and he is responsible for the proof that no supraparticular ratio can be divided into equal rational parts. (9) If superparticular ratios cannot thus be divided it follows that for Archytas the most important method of division is the harmonic. It appears that superparticular ratios were felt to produce "natural" musical intervals throughout the whole development of Greek theory from Pythagoras to Ptolemy. This conflict between Aristoxenus and the harmonists is really a quarrel between practicality and analytical precision. (10) When Pythagoras divided the octave he discovered the ratios for fourth and fifth; and these, 3/2 and 4/3, are superparticular. Hippasus and Philolaus show interest in superparticular ratios and the harmonic mean, and the attention paid to superparticular ratios and the harmonic mean, and the attention paid to superparticular ratios in the mathematical theory of irrationals has a background of practical music theory. (11)
The term subcontrary may refer to the fact that a tone based on this mean reverses the order of the two fundamental music intervals in a scale.