Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by gabby2011

... teach your children to hate Christians is not?

I am not teaching anyone to hate christians, not sure where you pulled that from.

What I do hate is child abusers....I dont care if your christian, Buddhist, or Jedi.....if you abuse children I have a problem with that.

My apologies , if I misunderstood you. You seem to not like the Christian religion..and its teachings...which is your prerogative..but I appreciate and applaud your care for children.

and I agree that no child should have to live with abuse..much the same as Jesus taught...but He also said to allow the children to come to Him.

But Jesus said, Allow little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

I have been thinking about starting a new thread with this same question phrased more diplomatically, because I think this is an interesting question.

I actually can't think of a sillier modern religion than Christianity, but it's like my brain is hard-wired to be a Christian. I grew up in the Episcopal church which is probably one of the more open-minded denominations, but I still feel brainwashed. Maybe it's just me. (I'm 45 by the way, so I've had 25 years to struggle with it as an adult.)

What do you think of "hey, Christian, leave those kids alone!"

In doing further research, I find a discrepancy with the "Teenage Jesus" paper and actual history. Where the author of the paper says that at the time of Christ, Buddhism as well as Hinduism was in its infancy is erroneous.

Siddhartha lived

563-483 or 466-386 BC

. So, I don't think "Infancy" is accurate to describe Buddhism.
www.friesian.com...
regarding Hinduism

Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder.[11] Among its direct roots is the historical Vedic religion of Iron Age India and, as such, Hinduism is often called the "oldest living religion"[12] or the "oldest living major religion" in the world.[13][14][15][16]

en.wikipedia.org...

The earliest evidence for prehistoric religion in India date back to the late Neolithic in the early Harappan period (5500–2600 BCE).[24][25] The beliefs and practices of the pre-classical era (1500–500 BCE) are called the "historical Vedic religion". The Vedic religion shows influence by Proto-Indo-European religion. Modern Hinduism grew out of the Vedas, the oldest of which is the Rigveda, dated to 1700–1100 BCE.[26] The Vedas center on worship of deities such as Indra, Varuna and Agni, and on the Soma ritual. Fire-sacrifices, called yajña were performed, and Vedic mantras chanted but no temples or idols are known.[27]

So, they are both FAR older than Christianity.

and here is some info on the Solstice celebrations, and the way those have been "turned in to" Jesus and John:

John and Jesus as remakes of Anubis and Osiris

In the case of Anubis and Osiris, the strange line, "He must increase, while I must decrease" would be appropriate, in consideration of their role as personifications of the summer and winter sun and solstices. In this regard and for many other reasons, the gospel of John, in which this verse may be found (3:30), is obviously geared toward an Egyptian audience, having also its apparent provenance in Egypt, where the earliest fragments of the book were discovered. Hence, the connection between this biblical verse and the winter-summer transition becomes even more logical to assume. It would therefore seem that the writer(s) of John's gospel - which does not appear in the literary record until the end of the second century - were aware already at this time of the identification of Jesus Christ with and as the sun, as they should be, since the coming messiah is specifically called "Sun of Righteousness" in the Old Testament book just before the Gospel of Matthew, Malachi (4:2).

Rather than representing the birthday of a human savior of a particular ethnicity and creed, this time of the year constitutes the "birth," "rebirth" or "resurrection" of Sol Invictus, the "Unconquered Sun," whose annual journey across our sky can be celebrated worldwide as a truly unifying expression of our global family.

Happy Solstice!

from the same site:

The solstice periods

Rather than representing the literal remark from a real person, this enigmatic verse is worded in such as way as to take on the appearance of mysteries - or, at least, mysterious - language or allegory. In consideration of the patent solar imagery sprinkled throughout the New Testament, along with the numerous characteristics Christ shares with solar heroes, such as the virgin birth, winter-solstice birthday, miracles of walking on water and turning water into wine, along with the transfiguration on the mount, resurrection and ascension into heaven**, it is reasonable to suggest that this line represents the changing of the guard from the summer-to-winter sun (John) to the winter-to-summer sun (Jesus). This indication of Christ and the Baptist constituting representatives or personifications of the winter and summer solstices is validated by their respective birth or feast days on December 25th and June 24th.

The concept of the six months from summer to winter and from winter to summer representing important times can be found in Indian religion/mythology, in the doctrines and stories involving the uttarayana and dakshināyana, the six-month winter-summer and summer-winter periods beginning on the solstices.

www.freethoughtnation.com...

**So, not the one and only to have ever been revered the way Christ alone is in the Christian faiths.

reply to post by cloudyday


Yeah, me, too -- Episcopalian. And it's been 35 years since I left it. I like it!!
Do the thread!!!
Can I join in??

Originally posted by cloudyday

What do you think of "hey, Christian, leave those kids alone!"

edit on 22-12-2011 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Awesome (even with the Pink Floyd sort of theme)

I do have to admit my title for this thread (not intentional), does seem to be a little bit of troll bait.

Here are some further readings regarding the prior-to-Jesus myths and legends that are "born again" in his story:

www.truthbeknown.com...

Dionysus: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, Killed and Resurrected after Three Days
by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S


The Greek god of wine, Dionysus or Bacchus, also called Iacchus, has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Only Begotten Son" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven.

In studying religion and mythology, it is wise at to keep in mind that in the ancient world many gods were confounded and compounded, deliberately or otherwise. Some were even considered interchangeable, such as the Egyptian gods Osiris, Horus and Ra. In this regard, ancient Greek historian Plutarch (35, 364E) states, "Osiris is identical with Dionysus," the Greek son of God. Dionysus, also known as Bacchus or Iacchus, is likewise identified with the god Aion and referred to as "Zeus Sabazius" in other traditions. (Graves, 335) Hence, we would expect him to share at least some of all these gods' attributes, including being born of a virgin at the winter solstice (Aion), and dying and rising from the dead (Osiris).

"Bacchus, Apollo, the Sun, are one deity."

Moreover, in Seven Books Against the Heathen (3.33), early Christian writer Arnobius (284-305) remarks that the Pagans "maintain that Bacchus, Apollo, the Sun, are one deity" and "the sun is also Bacchus and Apollo." (Roberts, VI, 472-3) We would expect, therefore, Dionysus's attributes to reflect solar mythology as well.

reply to post by wildtimes


I've been thinking about this a lot, because I have been an atheist for about 25 years but I still feel trapped by fear of Christian ideas I learned while younger. For example, I would like to try yoga and meditation, but oops there is that old fear again. It's frustrating.

reply to post by cloudyday

For example, I would like to try yoga and meditation, but oops there is that old fear again. It's frustrating.

Well, I'm not an atheist, and have not even often thought of myself as agnostic....
but I do know that in some Christian faiths, it is thought to be "good" to question, to be uncertain, to look into things.

Why do you feel yoga and meditation would be dangerous?? Nowhere did I learn that meditation was a sin, nor yoga...

I just started a thread of my own, too: we'll see how it is received....
ETA:
I honestly believe that all paths lead to the same place; and striving to live peacefully and humbly and harming none, and recognizing we are a divine family....an enormous one....is the challenge of being here on Earth. Not easy, not meant to be. We are ALL going to screw up....from time to time....but eventually we are ALL going to get there.

That is my firm belief.

Hope you can get a serious discussion of that question. It's easy for it to degenerate.

reply to post by cloudyday


Yeah, it's already gone to hell....LOL!!!
I thought the Bible-believers would jump on it. Nope!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by cloudyday

 

Yeah, it's already gone to hell....LOL!!!
I thought the Bible-believers would jump on it. Nope!

Sometimes bible believers just choose to pray for others. its pretty apparent when some souls just want to stir the pot.. and its best to just pray.

I thank God for allowing the virgin Mary to appear still in this day and age..and explain..and teach..and ask us to pray for conversion..for ourselves and others.

She is not some goddess from long ago.. and she does not refer to the sacred heart of her son as bacchus.

I will place my trust in the sacred Heart of Jesus..and The immaculate heart of His mother Mary..for truth...and wisdom.

God has given us so much time for repentance.. and conversion.. and sent many messengers and teachers in His name.

He sees the hearts of souls..and knows the intent of their actions.

There are many miracles and healings associated with the so called "high jacked " God you speak of..even today.

reply to post by gabby2011


Aren't you going to join in, gabs?

I'd like to hear your take on the facts and history of how our religious holidays came to be.
You're derailing this thread by posting regarding the other one....

Here is a link that another member on another thread posted. Seems to fit our discussion here very well.

I don't know anything about this organization, but the page makes some pertinent points.
Cult of Christianity

Such dysfunctional and destructive cults of religion (whether Hari Krishna's, Moonies, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate or Fundamentalist Christians) often use manipulation, fear, and deception to maintain a hold on members. They also shower their prey with unbelievable amounts of affection and approval for staying in the group and meeting their expectations ("love-bombing"). The religious cults discourage members from receiving information from the outside. Thus it becomes a sin to read any "worldly" publications or "spiritual pornography." Cults establish their own distinction between right and wrong, good and evil; everything in the group is positive (godly), and doubts, and serious questions are not tolerated. The authority of the group's leadership is virtually absolute. All problems are oversimplified and deflected either away from the group or back towards the individual (this is a methodology that is called conflict isolation).

Originally posted by wildtimes
Here is a link that another member on another thread posted. Seems to fit our discussion here very well.

I don't know anything about this organization, but the page makes some pertinent points.
Cult of Christianity

Such dysfunctional and destructive cults of religion (whether Hari Krishna's, Moonies, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate or Fundamentalist Christians) often use manipulation, fear, and deception to maintain a hold on members. They also shower their prey with unbelievable amounts of affection and approval for staying in the group and meeting their expectations ("love-bombing"). The religious cults discourage members from receiving information from the outside. Thus it becomes a sin to read any "worldly" publications or "spiritual pornography." Cults establish their own distinction between right and wrong, good and evil; everything in the group is positive (godly), and doubts, and serious questions are not tolerated. The authority of the group's leadership is virtually absolute. All problems are oversimplified and deflected either away from the group or back towards the individual (this is a methodology that is called conflict isolation).

There are cults within Christianity that may operate like that..but not all Christians are drawn to Christ because of fear...and not all Christian organizations operate that way.

Why take an example of a few extreme groups..and pass it off as all Christianity?

reply to post by gabby2011

Why take an example of a few extreme groups..and pass it off as all Christianity?

Gabby, I did not pass off the text as "all Christianity". I specifically c/p the part that mentions various other religions, and "Fundamental Christianity." You are fully aware that I do not imply, mean, purport, or claim that ALL Christians are like this.

Such dysfunctional and destructive cults of religion (whether Hari Krishna's, Moonies, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate or Fundamentalist Christians)

C'mon, now, haven't you and I moved passed the "all or none" stage? I thought we had. The above quote names non-Christian cults....and the only Christian-based cults of Heaven's Gate and Fundamentalist.

All long in this thread we have all agreed that not ALL Christian sects or spin-offs are abusive or traumatic. SOME of them teach in a manner that MAY traumatize SOME little kids with fear. That's all.

reply to post by wildtimes

Gabby, I did not pass off the text as "all Christianity". I specifically c/p the part that mentions various other religions, and "Fundamental Christianity." You are fully aware that I do not imply, mean, purport, or claim that ALL Christians are like this.

Actually I wasn't fully aware..I just noticed the fundamental reference now..

You seem to assume things about me that are often incorrect wildtimes.. and I sometimes assume what you are trying to imply as well..

I'm happy that in the end of it all it will be Christ who judges us all..because he is the one who knows the true intentions of peoples hearts.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Here is a link that another member on another thread posted. Seems to fit our discussion here very well.

I don't know anything about this organization, but the page makes some pertinent points.
Cult of Christianity

Such dysfunctional and destructive cults of religion (whether Hari Krishna's, Moonies, Branch Davidians, Heaven's Gate or Fundamentalist Christians) often use manipulation, fear, and deception to maintain a hold on members. They also shower their prey with unbelievable amounts of affection and approval for staying in the group and meeting their expectations ("love-bombing"). The religious cults discourage members from receiving information from the outside. Thus it becomes a sin to read any "worldly" publications or "spiritual pornography." Cults establish their own distinction between right and wrong, good and evil; everything in the group is positive (godly), and doubts, and serious questions are not tolerated. The authority of the group's leadership is virtually absolute. All problems are oversimplified and deflected either away from the group or back towards the individual (this is a methodology that is called conflict isolation).

Great article!
A quote from there that should have been included in the start of this thread...

Don't just react. Let us consider this question honestly.

Holy MOLY!!! Look at THIS! And tell me it's not abusive control....

Originally posted by wildtimes

Holy MOLY!!! Look at THIS! And tell me it's not abusive control....

yep..I agree ..thats some scary stuff in that video....have always found that type of spirituality to be way out there.

So much goes on in the name of Jesus..that I personally don't believe is from Jesus.. but again I say.. its Jesus who will judge the hearts of mankind..

I know of children who are not allowed to mention the name of Christ in there home..I guess that could be looked at as some sort of abusive control as well.

these people most likely believe they are doing what is best for their child.. just like the parents who teach their children pagan beliefs..

Unfortunately children will always be at the mercy of their elders for guidance.. and wisdom.. until they grow old enough to search for themselves.

Look at the bright side wildtimes..at least they aren't teaching their children how to hack into computers..steal credit info.. or how to rob a bank.

There are far worst types of child abuse than teaching you children to pray..far worse..

reply to post by gabby2011

these people most likely believe they are doing what is best for their child..

Does that make it acceptable? No. It is not acceptable to any person who sees what pain and trauma those kids are enduring.

Look at the bright side wildtimes..

While I understand your point, gabby, there is NO bright side to this treatment of those kids. NONE.
Of course, there is NO bright side to teaching them to be thieves or hookers or drug-dealers or warmongers.