Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

What are the objects or motives for which truth is sought?

Sir,
with all due respect, what is the object or motive for which you choose to use language that is nearly inaccessible to a vast majority of people, while representing yourself as Superior and holding a Magnifying glass up to a page of the Bible?

If you want to engage anyone, let alone help them open the "door", you might be more well-received if you did not sound as abstruse as the Bible itself and Plato. It comes across as pompous and decidedly unhelpful. Just a helpful hint from a fellow author. The audience you are trying to reach here is in quite a different classroom than Philosophy 690 at a seminary.


ETA: Is there a pop-quiz this week?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I tried, but could only make it through 5 min 39 sec of this video.

Not interesting, its just simply about a survey
OF catholics, BY catholics

and tell your preacher that love is NOT defined by your church, also love can exist without your church.

edit on 22-12-2011 by vogon42 because: (no reason given)

Church is not the producer of love. God has this distinction. All things express truth. Truth is the reason for the existence of all created things. The mind cannot conceive of things apart form existence. What the human mind reasons about is a glimmer off the edge of some truth.

If we knock, the door is opened. Church is the place of the eternally opened door. God is what we find when we knock. From outside or inside the doors of the church, the full significance of any truth can only be understood when seen in its correct perspective and proper relationship with all other aspects. Only God achieves this. Reception of this perspective is dependent on the clearness of perception. Perception is modified by pre-conceived prejudice already in the mind. What are the objects or motives for which truth is sought?

Here is how I see it clearly: LINK

edit on 23-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Uh...dude, please READ, before you respond. Why is it if I make a statement about LOVE, you respond with some long spew about TRUTH?
Do you understand they are two different words?
Are you avoiding the question?

reply to post by wildtimes

Sir, with all due respect, what is the object or motive for which you choose to use language that is nearly inaccessible to a vast majority of people, while representing yourself as Superior and holding a Magnifying glass up to a page of the Bible?

Sorry but I have to say you are much more guilty of what you are accusing him of.

He made perfect sense to me..and I'm not an "intellectual" person.

reply to post by gabby2011


Whatever, gabby. If you understand Superior Ed, then you aren't nearly as dense as you try to come off as being. You give the impression that it is impossible for you to track one's thoughts.

Guess I'm just not part of your enlightened, special "club" that understands all the riddles and mystical psuedo-babble that you Thumpers do. No thanks, I'll pass. Clubs like that are dangerous.

Enjoy one another. You've discovered perfect company in him.

reply to post by gabby2011

guilty of what you are accusing him of.

Does EVERYTHING have to be "accusations" and "guilt" with you?

I tried my very best to make peace with you, to be understood by you, and gave you the beneft of the doubt that your heart was honestly in the right place. You have decided that I am a vile, attacking person, and no matter what I say, you persist in "accusing" me of being a mean, base, nasty sinner. I have lost interest in trying to build a meeting of the minds with you. Your judgmental and relentless browbeating is all the evidence I need that your heart is about as open and loving as a tomb. You know in your "heart" that I have tried to rise above your idiotic bashing of me and others. You have read the u2us. You have received a heartfelt apology more than once.

Nothing satisfies you or makes you happy or accepting of anothers' point of view!

And that is evil. You know, maybe THIS will make you smile. I was in tears, sobbing the other night, trying to "make up" with you and be understood. My husband had to pull me away from the computer to calm me down. Is that how you want people to feel? I think it is. Yes, I am telling you the absolute truth. I was sobbing, and my loving husband hugged me and said "honey, c'mon, you need to not let them get to you." And I smiled at him, through those tears, and said "well, I least gabby and I finally made friends." And I actually went to bed with peace, having finally let go of the hurt caused by your words. And the very next day, you started it AGAIN!

Thought you were gonna pray for me! Thought you were going to defend me against anyone who tried to crucify me! Not that I asked you to, but it did ease my feeling of being misunderstood and hated. Is that what you do to your kids? Reduce them to tears of frustration and helplessness? Perpetutual rejection and never-ending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou promises of "hope" and "prayer"?

Way to spread the Word. It just screams Christianity.

That kind of relationship is toxic. Only a gutless wonder would persist in trying to sustain it. Thanks for playing, but you lose. It doesn't matter what you spout if your heart is that cold, calculating, and malicious.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

What are the objects or motives for which truth is sought?

Sir,
with all due respect, what is the object or motive for which you choose to use language that is nearly inaccessible to a vast majority of people, while representing yourself as Superior and holding a Magnifying glass up to a page of the Bible?

If you want to engage anyone, let alone help them open the "door", you might be more well-received if you did not sound as abstruse as the Bible itself and Plato. It comes across as pompous and decidedly unhelpful. Just a helpful hint from a fellow author. The audience you are trying to reach here is in quite a different classroom than Philosophy 690 at a seminary.

edit on 24-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

ETA: Is there a pop-quiz this week?

edit on 24-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

This becomes the entire point to answer the thread. If we approach God as a vending machine for our own wishes, we see the world as a truth to take. If we approach God as the divine truth that He is, then our will is insignificant. Truth will only reveal itself to the ear bent toward God. If we try to bend God toward our own motives and perspectives, then we are particularizing truth toward our own preconceived notions of right and wrong.

The highest form of love we can give to our children is the example we show by our actions. Encouraging our families to participate in religious customs points the mind away from the literal world of material desires and toward the abstract truths of the spirit. All parts of nature reveal an archetype of truth. An acorn is the 75 foot oak tree enfolded by information. What does that tell us about our body? Are we the form expressed by the information or the essence of the information? We can look at the literal body and miss the essence of what it teaches. Bringing the mind of a child toward the abstract truth that is taught by spiritual teaching is the way we learn to value love by our actions.

To call this child abuse is to miss the point and cling to the literal world. This is what I mentioned above. We particularize the universal truth of the spirit. The mind sees in symbol. Child abuse is a symbol representing what happens to a child who is taught to only value the material world and what can be taken as a reward. Love, on the other hand, is a spiritual universal that only give to others. Where do we learn to give to others each Sunday? Being at home watching a football game and drinking beer, or taking our families to church to seek spiritual truth?

Give a child a choice between a dime and nickle and they will take the nickle because it is larger. When a child begins to see the value of the dime, they see what is not obvious from what is only seen. Value can only be seen when we educate the mind to the difference.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The highest form of love we can give to our children is the example we show by our actions.

Precisely. Why can you not just leave it at that instead of trying to sound like some guru of holiness?

I taught my kids that everyone is valid, everyone has dignity, and everyone is a cherishable individual, part of the One creation. They know no hatred, no materialistic spoiling. I provided them with a loving home, creatures to care for and learn to love, good food, appreciation for nature, a chance to learn how to garden, how to read, and stayed home with them until they were school age. I was open to ANY questions they might have. I set that absolute best example that I possible could. And they are kind, loving, moral individuals who are precious gifts to this world.

What more do you want?
You and your ilk do NOT see everyone as valid. You see only those who agree with your dogma as valid. And that is wrong and evil. And you wonder why fewer and fewer people are turning to "church."

To call this child abuse is to miss the point and cling to the literal world.

So these adults ridiculing and accusing these kids of being fakers, of being evil, are treating them well? Causing them to collapse in tears of delirous self-hatred and shame? If someone tried to do that with one of my kids they would wind up learning the REAL love of a parent. It's abusive, exploitative, cruel, and inhumane.

Is that what Jesus said?
"Suffer the little children to come to me so I can browbeat them with shame and remind them that they are hopeless sinners and going straight to hell."

"Take your children home and scare the holy crap out of them and tell them that they are doomed to hellfire. And every summer send them to camp where perfect strangers can do so, giving you a break from the work."

"Allow no questioning, no mistakes. Do not explain anything except that they are going to hell because they don't know how to act, no matter how hard they try."

"Tell them you will pray for their sorry souls, but it isn't going to help much unless they see this mysterious truth that I am ramming down your throat but refuse to present in a way that makes them feel happy and good about it."

Uh, I think not.

And if you cannot see that, you are warped indeed.

reply to post by wildtimes


If you look at this as us against you, you may miss the opportunity truth presents. The fact that you are bumping up against the reflection we are raising in this thread is not a judgment from us. When you look in a mirror, you can only see yourself. Truth is the only judge of men. There is a large divide between the object delivering the subject. The subject is the only thing that can convict the spirit either way. If you are resting on a higher truth, then your spirit should give you peace. The same is true for all of us. The Bible says to test all things and cling to what is good.

On each side of all human souls, there is a spirit of truth and a spirit of darkness. Apart from this, we would not have free will. We direct ourselves toward the light and find peace or we cling to the darkness and find the consuming fire of God. This is the work of God in all of us equally. Love requires truth and truth is not always easy to face. Freedom comes when truth is embraced and the walls fall around us. From this point, we rise from the ashes as a new person. The more a person opens themselves to this opportunity, the more it becomes available. Peace follows every wall that God is able to break through in our lives. LINK When the reflection is equally viewed, we find peace.

Time creates our past. If we see something in the future that is unequal to our past, we see imbalance. We create a new past by throwing new choices into the future by a process of improved thinking. When the past and the future are equal, we are filled. When the past and future truth do not agree, we are found to be empty and in need. Face it with courage and allow the old person to fall away.

It is easy to see this as God against us and to think He is in some way evil. The truth is much closer to the love of a Father for His children. Even a father needs to be willing to make a child cry if it means leading them away from the fire. All things work for the good of those who love the Lord. Facing truth is never easy.

Earlier, you were referring to a conversation with your mother and how church made you feel. I can relate to this form my early life. What I came to realize is this: My feelings were not the result of church, but a reflection of my need to rise to its challenge.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

The Bible says to test all things and cling to what is good.

Yup. So do most world religions. I have no problem looking in the mirror, sir, and you have one fat nerve projecting that onto me. I suggest you are bumping into a narrow-minded tunnel-vision of rejection. What I have found on my own journey is absolute peace, understanding of the divine, and the truth that we are divine and eternal souls whose Creator will wait infinitely, patiently, and understandingly until we are ready to be brought home.

I will cling to that ^^^, which is good. Knowing I am every bit as loved whether I'm singing hymns in a church or sitting atop a mountain awestruck by the majesty of the natural world around us. I don't need YOUR approval to know that.

You have a long way to go before you are anywhere NEAR the place you'll find your doorway to the Truth.
Mind your own business, and leave others to their way of reaching the Divine Destination.

reply to post by wildtimes

So these adults ridiculing and accusing these kids of being fakers, of being evil, are treating them well? Causing them to collapse in tears of delirous self-hatred and shame? If someone tried to do that with one of my kids they would wind up learning the REAL love of a parent. It's abusive, exploitative, cruel, and inhumane. Is that what Jesus did? "Suffer the children to come to me so I can browbeat them with shame and remind them that they are hopeless sinners and going straight to hell."

Uh, I think not.

And if you cannot see that, you are warped indeed.

This has not been my experience in a church setting. It sounds like you value love and have taught your children the same. I have not said anything about you in any of this. I am only reading your own perspective as stated. Again, the problem seems to be between you and God in this.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Wrong again, Master. God and I are on perfectly good terms. My problem is with zealots who think they have a handle on the Truth that is the Divine, and that only their chosen tome will lead others there. And who, worse, will shame and abuse little children to make them agree to it, and tell them to take up arms and destroy anyone who says they prefer a different way of reaching the Divine Destination.

So, worry not. My soul is safe with the angels that guide and protect me, and my spirit is destined for eternal peace. Bon voyage.

I have not said anything about you in any of this. I am only reading your own perspective as stated. Again, the problem seems to be between you and God in this.

To wit: ^^^^ "I have not said anything about you." "the problem seems to be between you and God."
Double talk and spin. In the same paragraph.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Did you not watch the video??
THAT is the ABUSE to which I am referring.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

The Bible says to test all things and cling to what is good.

Yup. So do most world religions. I have no problem looking in the mirror, sir, and you have one fat nerve projecting that onto me. I suggest you are bumping into a narrow-minded tunnel-vision of rejection. What I have found on my own journey is absolute peace, understanding of the divine, and the truth that we are divine and eternal souls whose Creator will wait infinitely, patiently, and understandingly until we are ready to be brought home.

I will cling to that ^^^, which is good. Knowing I am every bit as loved whether I'm singing hymns in a church or sitting atop a mountain awestruck by the majesty of the natural world around us. I don't need YOUR approval to know that.

You have a long way to go before you are anywhere NEAR the place you'll find your doorway to the Truth.
Mind your own business, and leave others to their way of reaching the Divine Destination.

So, what you are finally saying here is that you have found a path to truth by your own reasoning. That path seems right to you and it works for your family. Would it be fair for me to claim your unique path as child abuse? Of course not. You are the captain of your ship. As you judge me for taking my kids to church, you deny your own reasoning.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Did you not watch the video??
THAT is the ABUSE to which I am referring.

I witnessed child abuse today. There was a guy in a broken down old car smoking. His wife was sitting next to him with a baby in a car seat behind. That's child abuse. That's a choice. He could have very easily been on his way to church for all I know. Choices make our world. To call church child abuse is to deny the billions who have risen from the pit from learning spiritual truth. It's a shame you had a bad experience. This has little to do with the church and more to do with those around you. God cannot be blamed for the poor choices of men. Poor choices happen in all areas of our life.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

So, what you are finally saying here is that you have found a path to truth by your own reasoning.

Wow. It is truly staggering how you fail to "hear" and also fail to "explain" in a loving and coherent manner.

I don't judge you for taking your children to church!

I did not find a path by my own "reasoning", but by listening to many sources, through meditation and prayer and silence and openness to any suggestions by those who were willing to share in a kind and non-shaming way.

I simply am unimpressed with those who think their way is the one and ONLY way. It is false doctrine, because we are EACH beloved souls, EACH on our own paths. I continue to follow the path that my heart and soul tell me is the correct way -- to validate every person, to give them credit for knowing themselves, and for allowing each, no matter his beliefs, to come to the peace that is his own. It is not my place to judge. It IS my place to protest unfair treatment toward myself and others.

You treat others as though they are diseased and doomed unless they swallow your beliefs.

I treat them as worthy, valid, dignified individuals who are just as entitled to compassion, love, and acceptance as anyone else. I don't feel the need to "judge" anyone. All I feel the need to do is love, and accept my fellow humans just as they are. I don't tell them they are lost souls, doomed to hell, and too far gone to hope for salvation because they don't see the world the way I do. And I find it difficult to have compassion for those who are condescending, shaming, and judgmental of others who are doing no harm, yet stand by and watch as children are tortured with fear and shame, which SOME churches use as a method of control.

I don't expect you or gabby to comprehend those concepts, as it seems to be beyond your grasp: the two of you are absolutely closed-minded, convinced you are correct, and blindly, egotistically, boastfully proud of your own perceived superior righteousness.

That is not Christianity, neighbors. That is arrogance and aloof dismissal of those who you see as beneath you.

Christ did not teach that, no matter what you think!! I hope for only the best of all things to you on your journey.

You believe I am bound for Hell for doubting your brilliance. Big difference between spouting riddles and truly caring about others. You want people to understand you? Then speak in a way that they can comprehend!

Otherwise, it might as well be Latin anyway. But if it makes you feel saved, well, then, our ships will simply pass in the night until our souls meet at the Destination some day. Then we'll both get it, and there won't be any more struggle to be heard and understood.

Peace on earth. Goodwill, not arrogance and special superiority, toward men.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

So, what you are finally saying here is that you have found a path to truth by your own reasoning.

Wow. It is truly staggering how you fail to "hear" and also fail to "explain" in a loving and coherent manner.

I don't judge you for taking your children to church!

I did not find a path by my own "reasoning", but by listening to many sources, through meditation and prayer and silence and openness to any suggestions by those who were willing to share in a kind and non-shaming way.

I simply an unimpressed with those who think their way is the one and ONLY way. It is false doctrine, because we are EACH beloved souls, EACH on our own paths. I continue to follow the path that my heart and soul tell me are the correct way -- to validate every person, to give them credit for knowing themselves, and for allowing each, no matter his beliefs, to come to the peace that is his own.

You treat others as though they are diseased. I treat them as worthy, valid, dignified individuals who are just as entitled to compassion, love, and acceptance as anyone else. I don't feel the need to "judge" anyone. All I feel the need to do is love, and accept my fellow humans just as they are.

I do not know all the secrets of God and I am a Christian so I do not know how anyone could find the path to God without the bible but I will leave both of you with these bible verses.

Mathew 19: 23-26
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

1 John 2:15-16
15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 2:9-11
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

1 John 2:3-6
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Mathew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Just as a prayer. I hope someday Wildtimes you will be able to see that what you feel is the truth in your heart, to love all and do God’s will is the message of Christ. There are so many blessings the father will give you if somehow you can look past Christians and come to Christ. This would require tremendous faith indeed.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

... Would it be fair for me to claim your unique path as child abuse? Of course not. You are the captain of your ship. As you judge me for taking my kids to church, you deny your own reasoning.

OK, so instead of deflecting the question there.... Just answer these two questions for me.

1). has your religion blinded you to what child abuse is
2). has your religion taught you that child abuse is OK

Keep in mind, you saw the video, and I am not requesting some 2 page spew deflecting the facts. Just a YES or NO answer.

let me repeat the questions so you under stand them
1). do you know what child abuse is
2). does your god tell you child abuse is OK

(again, please don't sidestep the question, just give an answer)

reply to post by wildtimes

You have received a heartfelt apology more than once.

???.. I have never received an apology from you..unless you.. "gab.we good?" an apology? I on the other hand have sent a heart felt apology to you.

Does EVERYTHING have to be "accusations" and "guilt" with you? I tried my very best to make peace with you, to be understood by you, and gave you the beneft of the doubt that your heart was honestly in the right place. You have decided that I am a vile, attacking person, and no matter what I say, you persist in "accusing" me of being a mean, base, nasty sinner. I have lost interest in trying to build a meeting of the minds with you. Your judgmental and relentless browbeating is all the evidence I need that your heart is about as open and loving as a tomb. You know in your "heart" that I have tried to rise above your idiotic bashing of me and others.

Good grief wildtimes.. all I said was that you basically have done exactly what you are complaining that superior Ed does..

Now you say I am saying you are vile? nasty, mean.. etc..exaggerate much?

Then you go on to accuse me of browbeating and being judgmental?..

If you want judgmental try reading some of your posts ..heck even the topic of this thread is judgmental.

Are you done with the bashing now?

My apology to you was sincere wildtimes.. but I have no apology from you..in a u2u ..just the pretense in this thread that you have apologized....which is sad.

I do care about you..and wish you the best.. but I will stand up for my fellow members when I think they are being judged for something that is silly.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

So, what you are finally saying here is that you have found a path to truth by your own reasoning.

Wow. It is truly staggering how you fail to "hear" and also fail to "explain" in a loving and coherent manner.

I don't judge you for taking your children to church!

I did not find a path by my own "reasoning", but by listening to many sources, through meditation and prayer and silence and openness to any suggestions by those who were willing to share in a kind and non-shaming way.

I simply am unimpressed with those who think their way is the one and ONLY way. It is false doctrine, because we are EACH beloved souls, EACH on our own paths. I continue to follow the path that my heart and soul tell me is the correct way -- to validate every person, to give them credit for knowing themselves, and for allowing each, no matter his beliefs, to come to the peace that is his own. It is not my place to judge. It IS my place to protest unfair treatment toward myself and others.

You treat others as though they are diseased and doomed unless they swallow your beliefs.

I treat them as worthy, valid, dignified individuals who are just as entitled to compassion, love, and acceptance as anyone else. I don't feel the need to "judge" anyone. All I feel the need to do is love, and accept my fellow humans just as they are. I don't tell them they are lost souls, doomed to hell, and too far gone to hope for salvation because they don't see the world the way I do. And I find it difficult to have compassion for those who are condescending, shaming, and judgmental of others who are doing no harm, yet stand by and watch as children are tortured with fear and shame, which SOME churches use as a method of control.

I don't expect you or gabby to comprehend those concepts, as it seems to be beyond your grasp: the two of you are absolutely closed-minded, convinced you are correct, and blindly, egotistically, boastfully proud of your own perceived superior righteousness.

That is not Christianity, neighbors. That is arrogance and aloof dismissal of those who you see as beneath you.

Christ did not teach that, no matter what you think!! I hope for only the best of all things to you on your journey.

You believe I am bound for Hell for doubting your brilliance. Big difference between spouting riddles and truly caring about others. You want people to understand you? Then speak in a way that they can comprehend!

Otherwise, it might as well be Latin anyway. But if it makes you feel saved, well, then, our ships will simply pass in the night until our souls meet at the Destination some day. Then we'll both get it, and there won't be any more struggle to be heard and understood.

Peace on earth. Goodwill, not arrogance and special superiority, toward men.

edit on 24-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

You are putting words in my mouth. Quote me if I have judged you. I would be interested in the words I used to judge you. I went back to reread. Please show my quotes to back up your allegations against me.

reply to post by wildtimes

I don't expect you or gabby to comprehend those concepts, as it seems to be beyond your grasp: the two of you are absolutely closed-minded, convinced you are correct, and blindly, egotistically, boastfully proud of your own perceived superior righteousness.

wow.. talk about judgmental.. whew..

I have never thought I was superior.. and if I choose to believe the bible..and it tells me the way to the father is through Jesus.. I become close -minded ?

I have said before..and I will say it again.. why can't you just let those who don't believe as you do..have their own beliefs?

Why does it irk you so much that you can't convince me otherwise?

I think that in the moments before death a soul is shown the truth of Jesus..and His love for mankind.. so even if they may not have been believers .. they can still choose Jesus.

You have to understand wildtimes.. that Christians who go by the word of God.. cannot become open minded and accept any other beliefs..because it goes against the fundamental teachings of the bible...and goes against what Christ teaches. What don't you get about that?

What am I supposed to think..when the bible says the road to truth is narrow..and few follow it.. and others like you say there are many paths to God?

Thought you were gonna pray for me! Thought you were going to defend me against anyone who tried to crucify me! Not that I asked you to, but it did ease my feeling of being misunderstood and hated. Is that what you do to your kids? Reduce them to tears of frustration and helplessness? Perpetutual rejection and never-ending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou promises of "hope" and "prayer"?

I do pray for you.. but who is trying to crucify you?.. It is you who judges others and I defend them.

So am I to agree with everything you say..so you don't feel hated and crucified?

I don't hate you.. and I do pray for you...but am I not allowed to speak my mind?

Those are some very judgmental words I quoted above wildtimes..and your own views.. which are not based on reality.

because I may not agree with your words and ideas..does not mean you should take it that I don't pray for you..and I will continue to do so.

I challenge you wildtimes to look closely at your posts.. and see how you come across..and to look carefully at the words you put in other peoples mouths , and look carefully at the words you choose to call them.. after accusing them of being judgmental.

That kind of relationship is toxic. Only a gutless wonder would persist in trying to sustain it. Thanks for playing, but you lose. It doesn't matter what you spout if your heart is that cold, calculating, and malicious.

I'm sorry you feel that way.. but I will continue to pray for you.. I know Jesus has much love for you...and whether you choose to see it or not..I love you as well.. though I may not agree with much of what you say. I also love superior Ed as a brother in Christ.. and I will defend him..because I care.

peace to you..

Edit: i went back and re read closely the u2u's you sent me.. Not one apology to me.. but you did say this..

Fine. I forgive you for the horrible things you said to me. Letting go of really nasty assaults in hard for me. I also apologize for what I said about Deborah.

That is how you responded to my heartfelt apology to you.. not one word of an apology for the nasty assaults on me wildtimes.. and there were many ..as well as cruel insinuations..

I reread them all twice to make sure i hadn't missed anything.. so once again you are lying in your thread..about any heartfelt apology you gave to me.. when in fact it was me who apologized to you.

In the spirit of this thread.. I would think that despite the over zealous way of teaching their children to pray.. these people are no more child abusers then those who would deny the knowledge of Christ to their children.

I know parents who have ridiculed and mentally abused their children because they have become Christians..how sad.