Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

This is a pompous and arrogant assertion that you can IN NO WAY prove to have happened, or to be the "truth":

Organized religion, when organized by God, is the truth.

Organized religions are organized by MAN seeking to understand the unknowable mysteries. One MAN in particular, Jesus Christ, had new (to his people) ideas. He talked about them, with abstract concepts, in a manner persuasive enough to convince a bunch of people a long time later that his stories were interesting.
Jesus was a MAN. Nice guy, meant well, had some great things to say. Did NOT write the Bible. Other men wrote the Bible.

edit on 21-12-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Actually Jesus was the son of God and the men that wrote the bible were guided by the spirit. You do not have to believe it but the truth is the truth weather one believes it or not. I pray that someday you can look past organized religion and find the faith to believe that God loved you enough to tell you about your history and guide you to being close to him. This would all be found in the bible.

I’m not sure what is abstract about this,
Love God, Love your neighbor, and break away from the bondage of sin. This is what Jesus and the Apostles taught.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The people who wrote the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, writing only what the Spirit instructed. I do not expect you to understand what I am saying. If you want to understand you must start with faith.

I do have faith. And I do want to understand. That's why I went looking on my own, aside from the "believers" that Christ was the only Son of God and our Saviour. I dare say you have not been exposed to enough world religions, or history, to understand what YOU are saying.

And the Holy Spirit is speaking through ME, right NOW, telling you that any way that is loving and good is a valid, creditable way to live. All paths lead to the truth. Just because your neighbor arrived via a different route doesn't mean he or she isn't also THERE.

Self-righteous much?

reply to post by sacgamer25

CULT
from
dictionary.reference.com...

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

tomato tomahto what ever, its still a red fruit that grows on a vine.....regardless of what your dogma wants to brainwash you into

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by sacgamer25

If you want to label people who love both their friends and enemies a cult then count me in.
If you want to label people who live modest lives and help others whenever they can a cult count me in.
If you want to label people who are more concerned with doing the will of God instead of following their own selfish desires a cult than count me in.

Proud family member of the brothers, and sisters, who believe in our lord and savior Jesus Christ.

edit on 21-12-2011 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

Yes, you are a cult. Look up the definition.
Which is part of the reason organized religion strikes me as so ....what ever..... its just far too cultic.


When the man in the fancy robe says ......blah blah blah....
Everyone else in the room is required to respond with a specific (blah blah blah).....sorry man, thats just creepy

edit on 21-12-2011 by vogon42 because: (no reason given)

I do not attend the church you are talking about. You only talk about the church organized by men because you do not know the church organized by God.

I do love you and pray for you. It is God's will that all will come to him. Have faith that your father, God, loves you and wants you to come home to him.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I do not give credit to the church you are speaking of.

What "church" am I speaking of? I am speaking of "humanity" as a whole....and for you not to "give credit" to others who follow the same exact principles you spout as good is hypocrisy. Blatant Bald HYPOCRISY.

It is because you didn’t understand what I was saying that you think this.

You said “Why do you insist CHURCH has anything to do with”

So when I said I do not attend the church you are talking about. I assumed you were talking about the group of people who insist you are going to hell because you do not believe what they do. I do not follow that religion.
Christ taught me to love both my brothers and unbelievers.

So in love I refuse to judge anyone as I do not know all the secrets of God, so I don’t claim to know who will or will not go to heaven. I can only be assured of my salvation. I believe if you read through any of my posts made in the past month you will see that I don’t say the things that you are expecting from a Christian. But I do say the things that Christ teaches one to say.

If I am mistaken by your definition of church I apologize. I do pray that all will come to feel and understand the love of God the way I feel it.

reply to post by vogon42


You can label the truth however you please. But it does not change the fact that it is the truth.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

The people who wrote the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, writing only what the Spirit instructed. I do not expect you to understand what I am saying. If you want to understand you must start with faith.

I do have faith. And I do want to understand. That's why I went looking on my own, aside from the "believers" that Christ was the only Son of God and our Saviour. I dare say you have not been exposed to enough world religions, or history, to understand what YOU are saying.

And the Holy Spirit is speaking through ME, right NOW, telling you that any way that is loving and good is a valid, creditable way to live. All paths lead to the truth. Just because your neighbor arrived via a different route doesn't mean he or she isn't also THERE.

Self-righteous much?

If I claim that all of my understanding comes from the Holy Spirit and the Bible then why do you call me righteous?

If I said I know this and I know that because I am better or smarter than you that would be righteousness.

But since I give all credit for my knowledge to God and his word than you see I can claim no righteousness of mine own. I do not believe myself to be better than anyone else. I am a sinner just as we all are.

If I have done anything to brag about it is to have faith that God loved us enough to ensure we had a book that taught us about ourselves and about him. Honestly it is the most loving thing I imagine he could have done, and did indeed do.

Edit: Actually the second most loving thing. The sacrifice on the cross and the promise of Grace and Salvation was the most loving thing. Giving us the book so we could understand this is the second most loving thing.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vogon42

 

You can label the truth however you please. But it does not change the fact that it is the truth.

Yoda told me your religion is the evil one, so that must be the truth.
You should consider converting from the dark side.

marquee.blogs.cnn.com...

reply to post by wildtimes


I have studied most of the other major religions. My best friend’s mother is a Buddhist. My best friend through Junior High was a Jew and other than the deity of Christ, and his message, we agree. My work provides me the opportunity to work with many Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims. I have discussed religious beliefs with believers of each of the major religions and have done independent study on my own.

Since all of these religions are founded on the necessity for one to do good works to go to heaven I know that they are the religions of man. These religions leave the believer a slave to sin. They teach one to live in a constant state of sin and repentance.

Jesus taught trying to obey the law led to sin. He has a better way. Jesus teaches us to follow the will of god. If one truly follows the will of God he will be unable to commit sin, by following the will of God one will break free from the bondage of sin. This concept is not found in any other religious book that I am aware of, nor is the promise of the Holy Spirit that guides you to choose God’s will.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Well, that explains it, then. When you said "I don't expect you to understand", that to me sounded like you thought you were smarter, and had a secret key to the club of "truth". That would be self-righteousness.

If, as you say, you subscribe only to the lessons taught by Christ, then that's great. My argument for the purposes of this thread's discussion is that the Bible, while it may be a helpful and meaningful tool for some (like yourself) who have generous souls and kindness in their hearts; while at the very same time it can be helpful and meaningful for others as a tool to thwart, coerce, condemn, shame, frighten, and mislead. And it has been used for that, a fact which you can not deny.

I am glad for you that it is your source of comfort and faith and that you see it as a gift. I am calmed to hear that you judge no one, nor are condeming anyone who is not convinced that Jesus Christ is the only route. As you say, we are loved by a Divinity that is patient, and it's not too late for anyone to be rejoined to that same Universal One-ness. I didn't need the Bible or Jesus as my teacher. I got there anyway.

Respectfully, I believe we have exhausted the discussion between us. You are right, you do not sound like the majority of Christians. You do not sound like the majority of people, either. And you and I agree on the basic tenets of the Golden Rule. And that, again, and for my final remark, is the ONLY RULE we need.

Peace to you.

reply to post by wildtimes


Peace to you as well. And sometimes my pride in what I believe does come across as righteousness. Thank you for allowing me to explain myself as I am still working on eliminating the righteousness from my statements.

reply to post by wildtimes

So, perhaps things are changing just every-so-slightly, if it is more widespread now that people find organized religion to be more about control and very little about kindness, acceptance, tolerance, and love.

I see much tolerance , kindness and love in many Christians.

You only have to look at the judgement and self righteousness of some non believers to see.. that non Christians can be full of judgement..intolerance..and really lack love and compassion much of the time.

Humanity is deeply flawed with ego.. and self serving..and you see it in all walks of life..all religions..in atheists..so to blame religion for lack of compassion is unfair.

Christianity tries to show us a way to rise above the flaws of humanity...and if some don't get that concept..perhaps in time they will.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Akragon

 

If you are talking about translations I am not interested in that discussion. In all the translations that I’ve looked at the core of the message appears to be intact. So yes I do believe that every word in the bible is correct.

I spent over a year researching every passage that supposedly disagreed with science or that supposedly contradicted itself. I was unable to find any proof that anything was incorrect. After determining that there was no proof to refute anything in the bible, I concluded that God did indeed love me and all of us enough to tell us our history and help us reach him.

Simply said yes I have faith in God.

I suppose you missed the parts where it says you should kill various groups that disagree with bible God... Among other things of course...

No im not talking about Translations...

reply to post by sacgamer25


Thanks to you, as well, for hanging in there, listening respectfully, clarifying what was unclear to me, and for your obvious kind intentions. Obviously others who have visited this thread with scripture and holiness were not as big or sincere a person as you are.

I believe spirituality is a debate worth having, and philosophy is a worthwhile subject of study. None of us are perfect, we all have made mistakes. We all misunderstand from time to time. Some people are better able to work past the initial knee-jerk and arrive at a peaceful co-understanding. Those, sadly, are few and far between, religious affiliation or not.

Namaste

reply to post by Akragon


I posted this in another thread but I think it fits hear as well. Since I imagine the imagery from the Old Testament is what many would argue should not be taught to young children.

Here is what most doesn’t understand about the Old Testament.

Prior to the flood man had not been given the law. They were allowed to exercise their free will, and since they had been given no law they did not violate the law. God found only one righteous man, leaving man to his own ways, Noah. Prior to the flood it appears man had destroyed himself in God’s eyes. The flood was a way to give man a clean slate. Since Christ died for all sins, even Adam’s, and it can be argued that prior to Moses since there was no law their sins would not be counted against them, they will be reconciled to God through Christ and enter heaven.

From the time of Moses to the time of Jesus, notice the law was only given to one group of people, Israel. All others were not given the law. So again the same argument can be made as for the people who lived prior to the flood. In each instance where God instructs Israel to attack another group of people and wipe them out, he refers to them in much the same way as he does the people prior to the flood, spiritually dead.

We know that ancient civilizations practiced human sacrifice and worshiped objects that they built with their hands as if they were Gods. God says that these people were in essence already spiritually dead because of their actions. So by having Israel destroy these people it could be argued this was done out of compassion for people who had fallen so far away from the intended path that they were already dead. Again the argument can be made that since these people had not received the law they will be reconciled to God through Christ.

So until the birth of Christ only one group of people had been given the law to live by. They would have been the first ones, except Adam and Eve, who had been given direct guidelines to follow. You see that even when they walked with God, they did not have faith. They knew they had been chosen by God yet the still rejected him as there King and asked for an earthly King. God granted them the laws and King that they had wanted. So still it was man’s own disobedience that leads to his destruction.

Jesus brought to man what God always wanted. Through the Holy Spirit god can again be our high priest, our king. But still even with a promise that requires nothing more than the faith that God loves you enough to give you a book that tells the truth, many refuse to have faith, repent, and accept this free gift.

Satan’s role:
Prior to the flood: Lead man so far from God that only one man was found that God considered righteous.

Flood to Christ: Lead man so far from God that many nations were completely destroyed because they had fallen so far away from God that they were sacrificing their babies in fire, and had prostitutes both male and female at their places of worship.

From Christ to today:
Convince man that the bible and God are fairy tales.
Teaches man that Marriage and family is meaningless, Adultery is no big deal everyone does it, it’s ok to lie every once in awhile, teaches children to disobey all authority, teaches parents the only answer is physical abuse, teaches that sometimes war is the only way, teaches that what should be obscene, sexuality and violence is ok to watch and even take part in, teaches that greed is good after all why shouldn’t there be so many people who don’t eat 3 meals a day. Teaches that we should pass judgment on everyone we see so we can all be filled with hate.

Jesus teaches, love God and love your neighbor.

If not for Satan the accuser, maybe we would find the journey towards God something slightly better than the world we live in today. Anyone who says the world we live in today is a good place is living under a rock. We, with Satan’s guidance to keep eating the wonderful wisdom that he feeds us have made the world this way not God. If God destroys us he does so out of mercy. Can anyone argue that it might be a good time for God to start over?

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

edit on 20-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Do you realize (at least here in the US) one of our rights is freedom of religion? Christianity is not the only religion.

(close your bible for a second, and open your mind)

I just watched a good video posted in another thread. I post it here to show what I am speaking of when I say that religion has played the pivotal role for shaping our current world in a direction of truth and liberty. We cannot claim the changes of the last 400 years apart from the positive influence gained by the printing of the English Bible. Humanity is literate and enlightened by this single event from our past. Apart from God, we would still be barbarians. If we close ourselves off from God, we take steps back toward tyranny and evil. Truth should never be confused with the people who claim it. People are not a good reflection of the underlying truth we should strive toward. God is not a human. Humans are not God. Each individual who participates in a movement toward truth participates in religion.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I tried, but could only make it through 5 min 39 sec of this video.

Not interesting, its just simply about a survey
OF catholics, BY catholics

and tell your preacher that love is NOT defined by your church, also love can exist without your church.

Originally posted by vogon42
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I tried, but could only make it through 5 min 39 sec of this video.

Not interesting, its just simply about a survey
OF catholics, BY catholics

and tell your preacher that love is NOT defined by your church, also love can exist without your church.

edit on 22-12-2011 by vogon42 because: (no reason given)

I suspect that the "best" Christians are the ones who weren't raised as Christians. I think that is because they had a chance to decide for themselves instead of being told what to believe by their Christian parents. I would like to see a survey or poll addressing that question.

Originally posted by cloudyday

I suspect that the "best" Christians are the ones who weren't raised as Christians. I think that is because they had a chance to decide for themselves instead of being told what to believe by their Christian parents. I would like to see a survey or poll addressing that question.

Very valid point!
I guess perhaps if gods fire and brimstone were not crammed down my throat as a child, perhaps the religion would not creep me out the way it does.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Good morning, Ed...
I found this page today, and I think you might be interested in reading it. Should take you about as long as it will take for someone to watch your posted video.

Read the whole article, man. Then, come back and tell us how you know that the Bible is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
www.themystica.com...

The idea that God was not some distant being far away in heaven, but could be as close to your heart as a father to a son. This was a radical concept. Yogis, who master the art of meditation, know that the miracles that Jesus performed were simply those attainable by discipline and mind-power. Any great, enlightened master or 'avatar' could do what was attributed to Jesus. East Indian masters praise Jesus Christ. They consider him a great master-avatar. 'The miraculous powers of Jesus Christ are natural to one who has reached the highest level of yogi attainment.' We all can be one with Christ…We all can be one with God!

In the time of Jesus Christ, Hinduism was in its infancy. In the time of Jesus Christ, the teachings of Buddha were at its beginning. Could Christ, and his eastern truths, have had such an influence on these other schools of religion? Essa (Jesus) mastered Hinduism and Buddhism. Documents tell us that Essa lived in India and Tibet. Holy men have reported this.

a bit further down, there is this:

'It is true that Christ lived in India during most of the 18 unaccounted years of his life; studying with India's great masters. That doesn't take away from his divinity and uniqueness. It shows the unity and brotherhood of all great saints and avatars.' This was not unlike studying ways of martial arts in Shaolin temples. Was Jesus learning knowledge and truths that the masses were NOT ready for?

What happened to the records of Christ's lost years? Emperor Constantine called more than 300 bishops together in 325 A.D. This was the Council of Nicea. What to do with the holy records and the masses? Corrections, deletions, admissions and omissions were agreed upon. These savage, unholy men of the cloth butchered the Bible. It was here that Jesus Christ was elevated to become the 'only begotten Son of God.' This ideology became the Nicean Creed.

Emperor Constantine discovered that the historical Jesus conflicted with his new philosophy. In 389 A.D., the vast Library at Alexandria was burned. Manuscripts that might have contradicted Constantine's Nicean Creed were destroyed. Somewhere, the history of the teenage Jesus was deleted out of our education. Could it have been erased because it implied the great answers to life were learned in the East? Was reincarnation and eastern philosophy the ways of Truth that absolutely opposed the simple standards of Christianity? What other things were edited out? The Book of Enoch, for one. Ezekiel nearly got edited out for its blasphemy. And, gods became the singular GOD.

The early disciples of Jesus believed in REINCARNATION. Jews believed in it; Orthodox Jews still believe in it. Early writers recorded that they first heard of reincarnation from apostolic times. The teaching of reincarnation was not officially taken out of the Church's Christian doctrine until 553 A.D. This second Council of Constantinople eliminated all teachings of reincarnation and Biblical references. There are still hints or glimpses in the Bible of reincarnation....