Christianity, is it child emotional abuse?

reply to post by wildtimes


When I experienced my stigmata, I also felt a terrible fire burning me. If the whole crucifixion thing is true, regardless of what people believe, then the whole idea of salvation and sin is also true, regardless of what people believe. Why did God give me the sign of the crucifixion if Jesus' death was not important? Why is the cross so important if not to save us from the fire of hell?

reply to post by 547000


Whoa. Hang on a minute.... What "stigmata" did you experience, and when? How old were you? Do you have scars? Did anyone else see it? Why were you chosen for that experience? Has it happened more than once?

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Yes, I know you made it very clear; I meant no argument with that fact.

My point was that you attributed "unchurched" but nurturing families to being decent BECAUSE "previous generations practiced the true faith" (or something to that effect)...rather than the people simply being loving and nurturing humans. My point is that "being churched" is NOT a requisite for being a loving, nurturing person, nor does it "descend" from older "generations" who were properly "churched" like having blue eyes or whatever.

On the other hand, famiily systems, behaviors, and patterns of interaction DO repeat themselves....
in both religious and non-religious families.

I hope I'm making sense.

At one point in modern history, people were forced to be "churched". So, yes, historically, nearly all of us, if we go back 10 generations or so...will find "church" records. But my 13xgreat-gran Sara having been baptized and dragged to church and watching Protestants preaching in the streets really has nothing to do with how I taught my kids.

With all due respect, I agree with you, and I have enjoyed reading your posts and contributions to the thread.
You were fortunate to have been "churched" in a positive and loving way, rather than the hell-fire and brimstone variety of behave or you burn....and by the way you don't know how to behave....ad infinitum. I think, and here I believe we still agree, that somechurches do actually offer love, kindness, joy, etc.

Just not the one the OP was taken to. And my "experience" or "perception" of my early "churching" was pretty much similar to his/hers. The difference was that I didn't learn to tune it out. I succumbed to the shame and damnation and unworthiness and inability to do what was right.

--wt

It seems at this point in the thread, if I may, OP, that we have determined that not ALL faiths which call themselves "Christian" share the same approach.

I wonder which denominations we have all been "churched" with...
mine was Episcopal.

I know that many of the other denominations are less somber and steeped in traditional ritual and the KJV Bible.
prayer is on one's knees using the Book of Common Prayer
or standing while a)reciting psalms, or b) singing from ancient hymnals to a large organ
Sitting is permitted only during the sermon or "announcements".and a few other brief moments of repose during the entire 90-minute ordeal.

Those were the things to which I was exposed.

Oh, and never ever enter some of those Episcopal churches without a hat. If you forgot your hat, your mom can pin a hankie on your head. (This relaxed a bit after a couple of decades). Always wear a skirt or suit.
Always use your right hand to cross yourself,
and genuflect before entering or leaving a pew.
Keep your trap shut unless asked EDIT TO REPLACE "asked" with "ordered" to read a psalm with the rest of the congregation.
Bow your head even lower while they repeat verbatim the details of His birth and death. Stay on those knees.
If you have been baptized, you may approach the rail with your arms crossed in front of you for a blessing.
If you have been confirmed, you will approach with hands cupped ready to receive the bread.

Confession is optional (I never knew that until just recently! I never went to "confession.")

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

When I experienced my stigmata, I also felt a terrible fire burning me. If the whole crucifixion thing is true, regardless of what people believe, then the whole idea of salvation and sin is also true, regardless of what people believe. Why did God give me the sign of the crucifixion if Jesus' death was not important? Why is the cross so important if not to save us from the fire of hell?

Do you have a thread where you described your experience? Also, did you have a Catholic background before this happened? Stigmata seems to be mostly a Catholic phenomena. While I was trying to be Orthodox I read about people levitating and all kinds of weird things, but never stigmata. That doesn't mean Orthodox don't experience it too, but I never read about it.

I just wonder if your experience was shaped by your background. Like if you were a Protestant maybe you would have experienced something in the Protestant tradition.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by vogon42

 

I didn't know Christians had to go to confession...

It depends on what version of christianity you buy into.
Catholic, Baptist, the home grown nut jobs that protest funerals....there are many variations (all based on the same book), strange isn't it.

I've posted this in another thread, but it is sort of a decent summary..............

God and the Devil are walking on the beach. God sees something shiny in the sand. He picks it up and says "look its religion". The Devil replies "give it to me, I'll organize it"

reply to post by wildtimes

At one point in modern history, people were forced to be "churched". So, yes, historically, nearly all of us, if we go back 10 generations or so...will find "church" records. But my 13xgreat-gran Sara having been baptized and dragged to church and watching Protestants preaching in the streets really has nothing to do with how I taught my kids.

Civilization as we know it today is a product of the Bible being printed in English and the reformation of the church. These two connected events drove 70 million people out of Europe, mass literacy, the industrial revolution and the technological revolution. Combined with scientific revelation from the minds of the Hebrew people, we are all affected directly by adhering to a belief system connected with our creator. Apart from this paradigm shift in moral understanding, mankind would not have tipped to the other side of valuing human achievement over human subjugation. From our laws down to the language we use, no aspect of the world has missed being transformed by religion. This transcendence of mankind is directly tied to the realization that we have inalienable rights granted by the one who gave us life. It can be argued that religion has done harm. This is true, but not a symptom of religion. This is a symptom of what religion seeks to overcome by freeing mankind by truth.

Apart from our debt to God, we would still be barbarians. As we lose our grasp of God, we travel back down to the pit of tyranny we previously escaped from. Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

edit on 20-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Do you realize (at least here in the US) one of our rights is freedom of religion? Christianity is not the only religion.

(close your bible for a second, and open your mind)

reply to post by SuperiorEd

From our laws down to the language we use, no aspect of the world has missed being transformed by religion. This transcendence of mankind is directly tied to the realization that we have inalienable rights granted by the one who gave us life. It can be argued that religion has done harm. This is true, but not a symptom of religion. This is a symptom of what religion seeks to overcome by freeing mankind by truth.

Apart from our debt to God, we would still be barbarians. As we lose our grasp of God, we travel back down to the pit of tyranny we previously escaped from. Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

Uh, Ed? You seem to be a really articulate person, and to have thought through your ideas very carefully.....
but...
but...

Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

Like Harold Champing and Fred Phelps? Like Rick Perry? Those "churched" guys who protest at funerals, and burn other peoples' holy tomes, and spew rhetoric? THEY are not the ones trying to return us to serfdom?

Apart from our debt to God, we would still be barbarians.

And how are the slaughters going on in the so-called "Holy Land" not barbaric? How are extremists not behaving barbarically in bombing and raping and pillaging entire cities?
How is the human race not still a warring society?

reply to post by wildtimes


Interesting how the names are
Fred
Ed

guess you cant have FRED, without ED.

Originally posted by vogon42

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

edit on 20-12-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Do you realize (at least here in the US) one of our rights is freedom of religion? Christianity is not the only religion.

(close your bible for a second, and open your mind)

Absolutely. Liberty demands that people have an open expression of free will. We live in a marketplace of ideas. I wrote a good article on this subject for my blog. Education – A Marketplace for Sticky Thoughts That Stretch the Mind Another shorter article here. The American Marketplace of Ideas - The Right to Free Thought and Expression

I'm not sure what misconceptions you have about religion, but in most cases, men find the color of faith best suited to them. Some have no faith at all. Some are in a world between. Being unchurched is being separated from a body of believers who share a faith in common. A brotherhood of believers has the power to unite people in a common bond of love and mutual benefit. When nations have strong associations of faith, a nation flourishes. Everyone benefits, even those who claim no association.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

From our laws down to the language we use, no aspect of the world has missed being transformed by religion. This transcendence of mankind is directly tied to the realization that we have inalienable rights granted by the one who gave us life. It can be argued that religion has done harm. This is true, but not a symptom of religion. This is a symptom of what religion seeks to overcome by freeing mankind by truth.

Apart from our debt to God, we would still be barbarians. As we lose our grasp of God, we travel back down to the pit of tyranny we previously escaped from. Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

Uh, Ed? You seem to be a really articulate person, and to have thought through your ideas very carefully.....
but...
but...

Those who are "unchurched" are the very ones seeking to take your rights away and return you to serfdom.

Like Harold Champing and Fred Phelps? Like Rick Perry? Those "churched" guys who protest at funerals, and burn other peoples' holy tomes, and spew rhetoric? THEY are not the ones trying to return us to serfdom?

Unchurched individuals do not show evidence that morality plays a key role in their lives. A person can be an Atheist and still be affected by the morality taught by the church. If a person is affected by the moral underpinnings of truth, then they are churched individuals. Unchurched individuals live on a differing set of rules. Law is insignificant to these individuals. Our prisons, corporations, governing bodies and, yes, even churches are filled with these types of people. Claiming faith has little to do with demonstrating it.

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by 547000
reply to post by wildtimes

 

When I experienced my stigmata, I also felt a terrible fire burning me. If the whole crucifixion thing is true, regardless of what people believe, then the whole idea of salvation and sin is also true, regardless of what people believe. Why did God give me the sign of the crucifixion if Jesus' death was not important? Why is the cross so important if not to save us from the fire of hell?

Do you have a thread where you described your experience? Also, did you have a Catholic background before this happened? Stigmata seems to be mostly a Catholic phenomena. While I was trying to be Orthodox I read about people levitating and all kinds of weird things, but never stigmata. That doeso much. I was pretty anti-Christian and didn'tn't mean Orthodox don't experience it too, but I never read about it.

I just wonder if your experience was shaped by your background. Like if you were a Protestant maybe you would hbave experienced something in the Protestant tradition.

edit on 20-12-2011 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

I don't have a thread on it but I have described it many times when discussing how I know God exists. I was actually against Catholicism. I read about how Catholicism was pagan and that it is Mystery Babylon and all those things. So I was against it before this experience.

As for Christian background, I was pretty anti-christian and didn't know much about the faith. All I did was once read the book of revelation. But anyway, I put aside my pride and opened my heart to the possibility that there was a God. In those days I would cry often and plead with God that if He was real to give me an experience whereby I would know, and also to guide me to the faith He wants me to walk. One night I woke up and my head was aching. I felt invisible tears of blood dripping down my face and invisible blood dripping from my temple, as if I had a wound. Not only could I feel the liquid clearly, I could also hear it dripping onto my bed. It happened for many days I could feel and hear the blood, but eventually it stopped and I managed to convince myself it was all hallucination.

Nevertheless, I realized reading once that Jesus had a crown of thorns and wept blood, so my interest was piqued, and I began reading the bible. One day I read a certain passage in the epistle of John and realized that a man did not write this but a spirit did. I had an intense desire to be baptized and pleaded with my parents that they take me, but they refused and I could not go on my own either, so I cried out to God. One day I started to feel invisible water being sprinkled on me. I could feel the liquid, though it was not visible. A little later I realized I had sinned and felt terror, because I felt a terrible fire burning my body. Once again I cried out to God, asking that I want to know Him and not be damned. After bawling for a long while (and during this period I would feel something poking my palms, my side, and my feet), I suddenly felt holes in all those places and a light filled my body. I felt a bliss I never felt in my life before, and when the light was gone (it felt like light, I have no idea how I knew it was light but I felt it was). Since then I can feel invisible blood and/or water dripping down my body, though it's not physical. Can't feel the wounds though, and it doesn't hurt. Near Easter and Christmas they are the strongest, even when I never used to think about Christ or Christianity.

It's only much later when I started looking online for anyone who experienced something like this that I came to the phrase "invisible stigmata" and the description of it matched my experience perfectly. Again I don't expect my experience to move anyone except me, but then again I prayed to God to give me an experience whereby I would know, not for a sign to anybody else.

My acceptance of catholic faith came very slowly, but the experience confirmed for me that christianity was true.

I was 19 when all these things happened. I am now 21. I realize what an arrogant punk I was, always mocking christians and thinking I was open-minded (if there is scientific evidence I would believe it). But no miracles Christians could point to me could move me, I would just claim the miracles are lies and delusion. Now I too am either a liar or a delusional person to the majority of my generation. We presuppose naturalism because that is what schools teach us. They also teach us humanism and to despise authority, unless the authority agrees with humanism. Not directly, but the way lessons are structured.

Originally posted by 547000

I was 19 when all these things happened. I am now 21. I realize what an arrogant punk I was, always mocking christians and thinking I was open-minded (if there is scientific evidence I would believe it). But no miracles Christians could point to me could move me, I would just claim the miracles are lies and delusion. Now I too am either a liar or a delusional person to the majority of my generation. We presuppose naturalism because that is what schools teach us. They also teach us humanism and to despise authority, unless the authority agrees with humanism. Not directly, but the way lessons are structured.

One does not know the full measure of their sins until one is filled with the Holy Spirit. It is now the task to undertake following God’s Will.

Have your read the bible cover to cover? Do you believe every word? I am only asking because looking at your previous posts I might have a direction to point you in. If you are willing I will point but the spirit will do the rest.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I have read as much as I could. My parents have forbade going deeply into religion until I get my degree. No point in saying you believe in God unless you honor your parents. But I am allowed to read up on faith as long as I don't go deep for now. As a result I have scoured the net for a few neat things.

I believe in the Catholic Church, and as such I believe in hell and purgatory and confession. Mortal sins and venial sins and all that. I will be able to fully join my faith in 2014.

The bible alone is insufficient for instruction. Even John writes he did not write everything, and Paul tells us to listen to traditions and not just the written word. I have also found many things that point to the claims of the Catholic Church, like Jesus telling us to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Do you believe every word?

reply to post by 547000

The bible alone is insufficient for instruction.

This is incorrect my friend...

you just have to be careful of what you believe in it

reply to post by Akragon


Even the bible claims there is more than just what is written. The word is not just written but heard, and the early church fathers believed many things that are not written and they were educated by the apostles.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Do you believe every word?

Yes I do.