Military training and it's effect on humans

reply to post by Raivan31


The military drastically changes a person for ever.

I have seen it first hand.

When I joined, I did so willingly!
When I served, I did so proudly!
When I fought, I did so strongly!

I tell you what OP, I totally get where you are coming from and although I understand your point of view, let me let you in on a little secret. When you are taught, trained, "brainwashed" as you call it, it is done for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to save your own a$$. You take orders without question, you react and you act according to all the situations you are put in, that training is to save your life in battle, to keep your mental health as healthy as it can be while living atrocities in combat and to show you that you can actually get the job done where any other would fail.

Yes, after my service I have become COLD!
Yes, after my service I have become DISTANT!
Yes, after my service I have become a "STAND ALONE"

But that's what it took to save my fighting brother's life, that's what it took to free the slaved and starving, that is what it took to keep me alive and fighting for freedom for those that could not.

Call me selfish, call me nuts, call me cold and call me what ever you see fit but I know that deep down I am a better person, I know that I am more caring and appreciative and I know that I am ready to give my life for any of you and the freedom we care so much about.

Freedom has a price but as far as I know it that price is being paid by intelligent and willing men and women voluntarily joining the service. So please before judging your friends, walk a mile in their shoes, that's all I ask!

Originally posted by milkyway12

A death cult ....... that actually made me spit my mountain dew out when i saw that i laughed so hard.

It is a death cult. That's not an opinion. It's a terminological fact. I don't see the humor or whatever difficulty you're having in comprehending an undisputed fact.

I'll hazard a guess and say that you have no idea what a death cult actually is. No doubt you're envisioning a group of men in pointed hats slitting a goats throat in a pentagram of candles. Not everything in life is as simple as a soldiers mind, soldier.

It's already been explained with clarity by Muzzleflash here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Rather than telling us what's spewing out each others noses, most ATS members form rebuttals with facts. Remember, this is primarily a civilian user base. You know what we're like always trying to coherently articulate ourselves, factually support our arguments and other such nonsense.

Care to tell us what part of the definition of death cult as provided by Muzzleflash do you disagree with?

I'm sorry that happened to you with your friends.
This hasn't happened to me. All of my military friends, even the COLS, are as pleasent and fun loving as anyone, if not moreso.
I'm surrounded by Air Force, maybe there's a difference within the branches.
What military branch do you find as the common denominator for this behavior?

Originally posted by milkyway12
O and the guy above me. If you are having to defend your country. Then you did something wrong. You need to study military history because you are one of the ones that have no idea whats coming out of your mouth.

Where did I criticize the nature of offensive defense? I didn't. It seems a but remedial to even have to qualify something that should be conceptually obvious to all in terms of it's necessity. I honestly have know idea what you're talking about.

The real problem here is that you can't seem to diffrentiate defense (yes, that includes offensive defense) from attack.

Example:

- The U.S. military ATTACKS other counties.
- When these counties DEFEND themselves, the U.S. cries that their the ones being attacked.

It's no surprise to me that you're so confused with the sheer volume of doublespeak surrounding you and your ilk.

Originally posted by milkyway12
... and you are obviously a dumb stupid animal for making most of the ignorant statements that you just made.

That's how you're bosses view you, not I but nonsensically channel it back it me to your hearts content. To me, standard grade military men are misguided under-educated cowards. Now, if you were to channel that back to me your whole "I know you are, but what am I" argument would at least make a negligible amount of sense - that being an improvement of course.

When you go through basic, at first your body is in shock. All the weird hours and training you do, but then around week 2 or 3 you get used to it, you get used to being around people with discipline and you start taking a liking to it. I can speak with experience when I tell you that the biggest perk about the military is being surrounded by disciplined and structured individuals. Sure there are your occasional bad apples but compared to civilians, military men and women are on another level when it comes to that kind of thing. Of course we don't like civilians, the same civilians that sit around bitching about petty things sipping their starbucks and tweeting about their day that nobody gives a damn about. Complaining about the smallest little things while our men are risking their life day in and day out... come on.

You'd have to experience it to really know what you're talking about. Some civilians are 100% great people and I'd be proud to call them my friends, but the majority are whiny little brats who don't deserve to have people dying for them....

Originally posted by Fox Molder
So please before judging your friends, walk a mile in their shoes, that's all I ask!

Bwahahahahahahaha!

So the only way for us to know that serving a death cult to fight completely unjustifiable wars in the name of greed, tyranny and sadism is to actually participate?

Typical solider logic. As in none because the logic muscle in your brain is forbidden from being exercised.

Originally posted by rexusdiablos

Originally posted by milkyway12
O and the guy above me. If you are having to defend your country. Then you did something wrong. You need to study military history because you are one of the ones that have no idea whats coming out of your mouth.

Where did I criticize the nature of offensive defense? I didn't. It seems a but remedial to even have to qualify something that should be conceptually obvious to all in terms of it's necessity. I honestly have know idea what you're talking about.

The real problem here is that you can't seem to diffrentiate defense (yes, that includes offensive defense) from attack.

Example:

- The U.S. military ATTACKS other counties.
- When these counties DEFEND themselves, the U.S. cries that their the ones being attacked.

It's no surprise to me that you're so confused with the sheer volume of doublespeak surrounding you and your ilk.

Originally posted by milkyway12
... and you are obviously a dumb stupid animal for making most of the ignorant statements that you just made.

That's how you're bosses view you, not I but nonsensically channel it back it me to your hearts content. To me, standard grade military men are misguided under-educated cowards. Now, if you were to channel that back to me your whole "I know you are, but what am I" argument would at least make a negligible amount of sense - that being an improvement of course.

That's how you're bosses view you, not I but nonsensically channel it back it me to your hearts content. To me, standard grade military men are misguided under-educated cowards.

Say what ???

humm seems to me that I have a great education, I now have a great job with fantastic benefits, I can manage being a father of two teenagers and pay my mortgage on time and from what I can tell, even though English is a second language for me, I can spell pretty damn well too !!!!

Plus...I think I'm pretty damn brave too....But I guess that facing your own death or saving ones life in combat can make one a coward....Awwwhhh well...I tried !!! Sheeeeeeeesh !!!

Here in the UK is an organisation called...help the heroes.
I have had a few runs in with fund raisers of this brainwashing organisation.
I first asked "who is the heroes???"
and was informed that all the armed forces were such, and that is how it is promoted.
I argued that one or two of them may have acted in a heroic manner, but not all of them, this was countered with the reasoning that they are heroes fighting for our freedom, and risking their lives etc etc etc etc.
I argued that they chose to join, and are trained as KILLERS, very fit and well armed KILLERS, and if they use the sword, then they must expect to fall by the sword, and that there is nothing heroic in that, especially when they so vastly out armour anyone they encounter.
This leads to really annoyed supporters of this mind brainwashing organisation calling Me all sorts of names .

They are not fighting at My request, I deplore organised murder, and they are the murderers.
There is a clear and active push to brainwash the general public into thinking as the armed personnel so obviously do.
I have stood and talked with Young men and women about to deploy in afghanistan etc, they are very enthusiastic of the good they are going to do, and obviously totally believe this, they can hardly compute any other thinking, and quickly become irratated if You propose an alternative agenda that they are been USED to achieve.
I tell them that in my opinion they are MUGS, and are cannon fodder been sent into areas where wars are organised to support the agenda of a corperate led business called WAR.

gravitor

Originally posted by rexusdiablos

Originally posted by Fox Molder
So please before judging your friends, walk a mile in their shoes, that's all I ask!

Bwahahahahahahaha!

So the only way for us to know that serving a death cult to fight completely unjustifiable wars in the name of greed, tyranny and sadism is to actually participate?

Typical solider logic. As in none because the logic muscle in your brain is forbidden from being exercised.

edit on 16/11/2011 by rexusdiablos because: (no reason given)

Wow you are really on a rampage of insults, aren't you. Man I wish there was a basic training for civilians....Just basic, no service required after that, give me 10 weeks of your life. I'll put you in with a small platoon of 60, you will go through the same stuff any other new recruit goes through, if you come out of it with the same mental attitude, all the power to you.

When I joined I had hair to the middle of my back and an attitude of me being king #, major chip on my shoulder and no one was going to make me something I didn't want to be.

Today, I'm a much better person, I am active in my community, I have a great family and a fantastic job.

what is it that you have or you do there buddy ??

I am a US Army soldier.

-I have NEVER looked down upon civilians.
-I haven't deployed in my almost 5 years of service and i'm happy I never had to fight for my life but if I had to I would've done so proudly protecting the guys to my left and right.
-I am still the same nice person as I always was, i've become more self-confident and am much more willing to stand up for my self and I have grown tremendously in the Army as a person, I trully have become a better stronger person.
-If America or an allied country ever got invaded, i'd gladly fight for the people or die trying! THAT is why I joined the Army, another reason is so I could SUPPORT the brave men and women who would do the same!

I am proud to be serving and even though I might be affected by the downsizing of the Army and I might get out sooner than I would want, but I would still have been proud to have served.

I am not brainwashes, i'm still here on ATS with the same values and same interest and same love for my wife.

The Army has provided ESSENTIAL healthcare for my wife that she probably would've never gotten if it wasn't for the Army, My wife has grown as a person being an Army spouse.

I had the oppertunity to be in Korea TWICE in my carreer, a country who's people I would've gladly fought and died for.

I am happy I never had to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan since the people there generally don't appriciate us being there but I would've still proudly fought for the guys to my left and right, not the guy in the whitehouse or the big oil banker, I could give a damn less about them.

If you look down upon the military personnel I encourage you to envision your country without them, you might be speaking a different language and worshipping a different god by now.

Originally posted by gravitor
Here in the UK is an organisation called...help the heroes.
I have had a few runs in with fund raisers of this brainwashing organisation.
I first asked "who is the heroes???"
and was informed that all the armed forces were such, and that is how it is promoted.
I argued that one or two of them may have acted in a heroic manner, but not all of them, this was countered with the reasoning that they are heroes fighting for our freedom, and risking their lives etc etc etc etc.
I argued that they chose to join, and are trained as KILLERS, very fit and well armed KILLERS, and if they use the sword, then they must expect to fall by the sword, and that there is nothing heroic in that, especially when they so vastly out armour anyone they encounter.
This leads to really annoyed supporters of this mind brainwashing organisation calling Me all sorts of names .

They are not fighting at My request, I deplore organised murder, and they are the murderers.
There is a clear and active push to brainwash the general public into thinking as the armed personnel so obviously do.
I have stood and talked with Young men and women about to deploy in afghanistan etc, they are very enthusiastic of the good they are going to do, and obviously totally believe this, they can hardly compute any other thinking, and quickly become irratated if You propose an alternative agenda that they are been USED to achieve.
I tell them that in my opinion they are MUGS, and are cannon fodder been sent into areas where wars are organised to support the agenda of a corperate led business called WAR.

gravitor

Ignorance...Pure and utter ignorance. Sorry....I was taught to INJURE before as a better choice to KILL ! To injure one soldier you take out a minimum of three, to kill one soldier you engage hundreds.

And, just so you know. A hero is one that stands for the fallen, one that screams in the face of those that oppress, that fight for those that can no longer or can not fight. To defend others freedom is more heroic than to defend your own!!

Now please, go back to school.

Originally posted by Raivan31
I've known a few people in the defense force and there is one thing that i've noticed that comes around to bite me in the ass every time.

in the year after they finish their basic they become different people, out of touch with their basic humanity and convinced that they are a different breed. Convinced that they are better then the civilian population. Colder.

They sever relationships with their 'Civy' friends, convinced that they have become better as people when the reality is that they are merely brainwashed into thinking that they are now part of some kind of brotherhood, some kind of elite group that has an excuse to shed their basic humanity. They develop and 'us' and 'them' mentality and it strips them of their humanity. They think they are so tough and capable but really they are just moulded into a part of a machine, completely replaceable and disposable.

They distance themselves from anything 'Civvy' including friends and family that has always been there for them. They are institutionalised to believe that their new 'pack' cares more about them and understands them better then their old friends, the people that genuinely love them. They are wiped clean and reprogrammed to be a good little soldier that follows the bouncing ball and doesn't question the world around them. They are convinced into thinking that their new 'Family' is more real and stable then the one they left back in useless 'Civvy' land.

Then they get deployed to a war zone and they witness hell. They are humans like the rest of us so they sometimes break and when they do they are suddenly far less important and valuable to their new 'Family' they have no one left to turn to because they've severed ties with the people who really care and then they are left to wither and die, incapable of real independance because they've been so heavily indoctrined to rely on the 'pack'.

I'm sick of being the victim of this s&%t time and time again. giving of myself freely in a genuine attempt to form a strong and loving bond and then being discarded because i'm just another useless 'civvy' that doesn't understand. I understand, i understand only too well. and i'm sick of seeing beautiful and unique people allowing themselves to be wiped clean and reprogrammed to be a good little bit of cannon fodder, to lose their true individuality and become cogs in a heartless machine that lies to them and makes them believe they are better off.

Sure, military training has many advantages, it can't be denied. the skills that are taught are usually top notch but it's what is lost that is the real tradgedy.

After a few years of service most people (because thats what they are, 'people', 'humans' like the rest of us) come good again. they start to remember that they are actually a part of human society and not seperated from it. Others die or are disabled and discover all too quick just how 'important' their new families think they are.

I don't know of a solution to this, and i don't really know where i'm going with this. all i know is that i'm sick of saying goodbye to people i care about.

when will it all end?

edit on 15-11-2011 by Raivan31 because: typo's

I AM AN AMERICAN VETERAN OF THE UNITED STATES ARMY! I AM NOT BETTER THAN ANYONE AND I OPENLY ADMIT THAT! Have we had athletic training that is far more advanced than a civilian going to the gym....YES! Are we shown to survive particular situations and fight in real world war situations? YES! Given the fact that i myself and many others that have carried the torch before me and after me have gone through this training, does not make me or any others better than anyone else that has not served. WE ALL PUT OUR PANTS ON THE SAME WAY YOU DO! And If they are acting that way then i am sorry because you got to see that 5% ( and it's a small number that act like that) where the respect and tact portion of our training ran down the crack of they're arses! We took an oath and swore to protect this nation and the people within. Not prance around like arrogant a**ses because of our training and we get to carry a rifle and wear a uniform. However,.... is a soldier or Marine for that matter supposed to be confident, walk tall and hold his head high? Absolutely! We are trained that way! NOBODY GOES TO BATTLE WITH THEIR HEAD HUNG LOW. NOR EVEN WALK THE STREETS! ALWAYS ON ALERT! Do not mistaken confidence for arrogance. Two totally different definitions my friend. Nobody is stripped of Humanity (the quality or conditon of being human)......you used that alot in your post. None of that is stripped but it is improved upon. You become more aware, your eyes are open. You appreciate life more and not take everything for granted. Looking back now. If those guys were true ass*ole's then screw'em. But If the people you encountered were just confident and held they're head high! Then good for them.....they're not supposed to wear skirts!

reply to post by Perplexity

Hello, I'm from Ireland where the armed services is not a regular conversation starter, but it is simple for even me to be fully aware that your premise of discipline being something special to military men and women is not based in fact or truth.
Yes, military training is based around discipline but so are many many professions all around the world. You referred to giving your life, sacrificing for the greater good, and being proud while you accomplished it, but where is that same bravery for all those who suffer and bleed and are tormented by occupying forces that enter their homes and assume authority.
Without alluding to a study with factual evidence, I believe the majority of men and women who enter the military do so to spread freedom, to give their most precious commodity, time and energy, to making this world a better, more humane place to live.
These people are the warriors of the human race and their allegiance to hope and freedom is abused by those who wish to control and conquer. Its as sad a truth as any.

Peace

reply to post by Raivan31


Hey Raivan31,

You are a really good dude and I agree with MuzzleFlash in that you should keep talking about this. You seem to be the right guy for the job. I don't know how, but you are, and I am appreciative of your post.

So, I am an ex-military-whatever. Fact is I always appreciated civilians very much. When you are a soldier civilians are a special kind of thing to be enjoyed to their fullest, they were always so, so kind to us, so I never had an attitude about 'civvies', I depended on them to keep me grounded in the world I remembered so that I could come back to it.

I am so sorry that this upsets you so. The fact is that no matter how many 'high speed' schools I have been to in the military you and I are the same. It is important to recognize the Warrior Spirit in all men and women and to have respect for it. At least to me.

Listen all...

The difference lies in Permission. Permission. Have you been given permission to do that?

Because in our society we need permission for everything.

I will give you a moment to think about that.

Now think about all of the things that Soldiers are given the permission to do, especially the big one that I don't need to mention.

Right?

We give these folks, including Cops, the permission to do all the things that they do.

If it is a Cult then it is a Cult of Permissions. The problem is that the same cult members are not inculcated with a deep respect for the society that spawned them. There is no development of this respect before they become soldiers, during their soldiering or after soldiering to mitigate the effects of allowing all these 'Permissionized' soldiers to return to society. No debriefing. You are left standing around trying to figure out if you are in the cult or out. Why do you think Marines have that whole 'are you in or are you out' thing after they are released from duty. I was not a Marine, by the by.

So I really appreciate your post and the sentiments that it expresses. Thanks for being honest. When we see your screen name on a thread I know we will all remember how well you expressed yourself and will be eager to hear more.

See ya.

P.S. Do you still feel this way?...

I feel the desire to become a part of their culture so i can be near the ones i love.

reply to post by BIGPoJo


Yeah there better than us for murdering people in a different country all to protect "assets" if you think they are fighting for freedom or for you...you sir are in a major case of denial

IF and thats a BIG IF war was declared I would show more respect towards military and alot of other people would too but it never has been declared so they are occupying a country illegally there not actually fighting anything they are protecting assets and freedom is not one of them

Not true at all. My friend JUST graduated basic and instantly was on the phone with all her friends, back on facebook talking like she did pre bct, is the same awesome cool person she was before leaving. Nothing has changed at all, except she's more responsible, etc.

My ex went in, stayed in full contact throughout, got out, and is the exact same as before he went in too. No change what so ever except a little more quiet due to what he was around in the Kuwait.

Same with me, I never changed and my ''civie'' friends and family were as important as they were pre.

Maybe your circle of buds got that big swollen head and ego. Absolutely NO one I know has at all. :/

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by BIGPoJo

 

Yeah there better than us for murdering people in a different country all to protect "assets" if you think they are fighting for freedom or for you...you sir are in a major case of denial

...

Not sure how to respond to this naive comment. =/

reply to post by sarra1833


Hey Sarra, i'm Paul.
I'm inspired by your level headedness and down to earth attitude which judging by some of the posts here seems to be sorely lacking in the character critiques of some military personnel.

i would like to ask you your opinion on the point of view that the wars that are being fought in Iraq, especially, were started based on misinformation,( WMD's ) and other wars like Vietnam, (the gulf of tonkin), were also based on non factual evidence. My question is how do military personnel, while serving and knowing such information handle themselves and accept orders that may contradict a truth they possess.

Originally posted by BillyBoBBizWorth

Military personnel are in no way better than anyone else,if anything,i would say they are pretty weak minded.
Considering they feel the need to be apart of a organization,and a killing organization at that.
Considering they are so easily manipulated into a person that believes they are licensed to kill and are better than other people.

And all because another person with a higher rank badge said so...?

You mustn't be all there in the head to believe something like that..

edit on 16-11-2011 by BillyBoBBizWorth because: (no reason given)

You actually have no idea what you're talking about. If I were to look up "ignorance" in the dictionary, this post would be there.

Your total lack of understanding is humorous, telling, and predictable. There's no argument to be made, as people like you would never get it. You'd never understand what it is to leave your family and be dedicated to a principle (and, no, hippie, that principle ain't "killing people"). You're just ignorant, and better men and women than you defend your right to be an idiot.