Military training and it's effect on humans

reply to post by tangonine


Correct me if im wrong but in basic is it not the key to bring down the recruits to make them feel like there "infants" so to say, then bring them back up to the point when there confidence in themselfs and there peers are above the level they were when they walked in the door of basic? Now if so, with all the "your a Marine, a weapon of the united states goverment" type stuff will indeed lead to a type of brainwashing? Not in the manchurian candidate type crap but at some level they feel they are above the civilian population due to there training and abilities. Im not saying this is wrong, mental toughness is very important in combat, but there mentality does change from what it was. That my friend is a type of brainwashing or reeducation if it sounds better.

Thank you for your service training our troops.

Originally posted by CaptainIraq
reply to post by stephanies-chase

 

So what do we do in the case of national defense? Use strong words? No. We use force to counter the initiation of force by an aggressor.

To clarify, our end goal is not to kill, but to protect. That being said, it does not mean that we seek out people we don't like and kill them (which is what we're doing now). If attacked, it is literally our job description to use force, and if necessary kill, the attackers and break the stuff they attacked us with. That's always been the role of the warriors in any society.

Ummmmmm................You actually think that what your doing over there in "the sand box" is "defending the nation"?..............FROM WHAT?.....So we rip apart three Nations...Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya....put the screws to two others...Yemen and Pakistan......while rattling sabers against two others...Syria and Iran...While we "position marines in Australia....in an attempt to "coerce/prempt" China while were starting a trade war with her......FOR WHAT???
haven't you been paying attention.........9/11 was an inside job.......the perps were...HANDLED...by the same assjacks that you work for.....
Lovely isn't it?........DHS...TSA...the patriot act...FEMA.......Doesn't......"The Department of Homeland Security" have a very Third Riechesque/Orwellian ring to it...it just clings to the pallet and never quite comes off........
You like Bible quotes....here's one that suits you.........."none so blind"...

YouSir

An interesting point to make, is that I have not attacked persons, but instead I criticized an organization and it's structure and mode of operations.

You may take it personally all you want, but you are missing the point of a valid debate about principals and culture.

Again, if anyone ever decides to dispute my allegations in the proper manner, I will be open to considering their points and evaluating them philosophically. Thanks.

We'll have war until enough of us evolve to the point where we clearly see that killing will never create peace. One day, if we can escape the brainwashing of children's tales, movies, video games, education, politics and science, maybe future generations won't be so enthusiastic to kill the bad guy and be a hero. The propaganda has been fabulous for recruiting military, police and prison workers. Look at 'entertainment' choices. Many are blatantly military industrial. I have always found that kind of entertainment to be particularly offensive.

It sounds like some are starting to question the whole paradigm and escape the dialectic. We need to keep our hearts open to those who have served and not demonize them. What's done is done. They are in need due to their experiences in the service. We're all brainwashed and should be questioning what we're doing more often. I wouldn't ever encourage any young person to join the military. It seems to steal people's souls from what I've seen.

Q: If it's morally wrong to kill people, why is it okay to kill people for the government?
A: It's not okay to kill because Gov told you to do it. It's still wrong.

Originally posted by TheMur
reply to post by tangonine

 

Correct me if im wrong but in basic is it not the key to bring down the recruits to make them feel like there "infants" so to say, then bring them back up to the point when there confidence in themselfs and there peers are above the level they were when they walked in the door of basic? Now if so, with all the "your a Marine, a weapon of the united states goverment" type stuff will indeed lead to a type of brainwashing? Not in the manchurian candidate type crap but at some level they feel they are above the civilian population due to there training and abilities. Im not saying this is wrong, mental toughness is very important in combat, but there mentality does change from what it was. That my friend is a type of brainwashing or reeducation if it sounds better.

Thank you for your service training our troops.

You're wrong. The key is to build on their strengths. No recruit actually buys that "you're a killer!" bull# from full metal jacket. I never crushed my troops to "re-train" them in any way. They either had what it took, or they didn't. Those that didn't were discharged. (it is an all-volunteer force). You can or you can't, my job was never to turn the "can't" into a "can" it was only to train the "can" group.

The military is separate from the "civilian" population in the same way people that have PhD's are separate from people that live in trailer parks. Military has nothing to do with it. Achievement and self-worth and belonging to something, self-sacrifice and a peer group that thinks the same way have everything to do with it.

It's not, my friend, "brainwashing" it's called human behavior and apparently you feel inferior.

Being in a job that puts your life on the line for others will make you change. Being in a job that preaches rules and regulations everyday will make you change. If you don't change your way of looking at things you won't be allowed to do more years of it (whether it be military, police, or firefighter). What you see your friends becoming are grown ups and responsible people. True they seem different, that is because they are. They realize that if they put effort in something you will get results.

...unless your friends are joining the Marines - those mugs ARE crazy. Being in the chAir Force myself, I have seen many many messed up young men who are in the Marines.

Originally posted by RainbeauBleu
We'll have war until enough of us evolve to the point where we clearly see that killing will never create peace. One day, if we can escape the brainwashing of children's tales, movies, video games, education, politics and science, maybe future generations won't be so enthusiastic to kill the bad guy and be a hero. The propaganda has been fabulous for recruiting military, police and prison workers. Look at 'entertainment' choices. Many are blatantly military industrial. I have always found that kind of entertainment to be particularly offensive.

It sounds like some are starting to question the whole paradigm and escape the dialectic. We need to keep our hearts open to those who have served and not demonize them. What's done is done. They are in need due to their experiences in the service. We're all brainwashed and should be questioning what we're doing more often. I wouldn't ever encourage any young person to join the military. It seems to steal people's souls from what I've seen.

Q: If it's morally wrong to kill people, why is it okay to kill people for the government?
A: It's not okay to kill because Gov told you to do it. It's still wrong.

edit on 16/11/11 by RainbeauBleu because: (no reason given)

4 thousand years ago we had no video games, yet we still waged war. Bloody, merciless wars, to be exact. You can find entertainment to be offensive but it doesn't fundamentally effect human behavior. In fact, we're more civilized (if you can call it that) in the way we kill each other now.

Video Games? Really? silliness.

and did you actually say "brainwashing of...science"? wow. Just... oh look, there's a shark! Jump it!

Originally posted by ChuckNasty
Being in a job that puts your life on the line for others will make you change. Being in a job that preaches rules and regulations everyday will make you change. If you don't change your way of looking at things you won't be allowed to do more years of it (whether it be military, police, or firefighter). What you see your friends becoming are grown ups and responsible people. True they seem different, that is because they are. They realize that if they put effort in something you will get results.

...unless your friends are joining the Marines - those mugs ARE crazy. Being in the chAir Force myself, I have seen many many messed up young men who are in the Marines.

I've had a few encounters with US Marines. In bars. In the Phillipines. At the end of the fight no one had any question what side you were on or who your friends were, and if we all beat the SPs back to the bar, the tequilla was on the loser. At the end of the night, we respected them and they respected us; we just had to sort it out.

it's what dangerous men who write a blank check to the US that says "up to, and including my life," do.

Hippies and people that never make a sacrifice don't get this part. Do we think we're better than them? Goddam right we do.

Human nature is built around a heirarchy. You're cutest. You're smartest, You're the best swimmer/golfer/painter et al infinitum.

You're hungry and you have to eat. You shoot a deer. The difference between the US military and the rest of the world is that soldier/sailor/airman/marine will (nine times out of 10) help you dress the deer and respectfully as, if she's hungry, for a piece of meat.

Nowhere else in this world, or throughout human history, will you find a military force so closely linked to its civilian origins. And this thread, implying that our men and women, your (literally) brothers and sisters are brainwashed killers is despicable.

We're done here.

reply to post by tangonine


lol why would I feel inferior, I have a high degree of respect for the military no inferior complex.

Newsflash

Civies send us who are in service to defend our country's honor, integrity and constitution off to murder and pillage countries into the stone age without holding your government accountable.

It is you job to ensure that politicians do their job. When representatives can't achieve peace the military is called. When times are good, we are discarded. When times are bad we shoulder the burden. When 'civies' fail to hold anyone but Xbox or their cable company accountable and politicians send us to fight wars of aggression we remain calm even when called a babykiller. Sorry if you finally realized we don't take 'civies' seriously, and I hope now you know why.

Maybe if you walked a mile in our shoes you wouldn't call us terrorists when we use our special skills to enact change.

reply to post by XxAcidxBurnxX


DEFEND!?!? When has America ever had to defend itself except for world war 2? You need to wake up dude, how is killing people 5000 miles away defending our country...Let me guess you actually think brown people was behind 9/11.

Originally posted by sbctinfantry
Newsflash

Civies send us who are in service to defend our country's honor, integrity and constitution off to murder and pillage countries into the stone age without holding your government accountable.

Are you honestly taking no responsibility for your actions or the actions of your fellow servicemen????
The warriors greatest trait is knowing when to put down his weapon.

It is you job to ensure that politicians do their job. When representatives can't achieve peace the military is called.

And now you equate what armies do now as upholding the peace. Entering Iraq had very very little to do with peace and you probably know that.

When times are good, we are discarded.

If only!

When times are bad we shoulder the burden.

You mostly bring the burden, almost 1 million Iraqi people can attest to that.


When 'civies' fail to hold anyone but Xbox or their cable company accountable

Your being held accountable sir, YOU but as you've eluded to you take very little responsibility for the crimes that happen under the guise of freedom and sacrifice.

Sorry if you finally realized we don't take 'civies' seriously, and I hope now you know why.

And i hope you now know that a grateful world and its people don't take robotic murderers like you seriously. You will only have yourself to face and answer to soon enough, enlightened being indeed

Ughh. Thanks ATSers. I've been away all day and I have 6 or 7 pages to catch up on the conversation....

Be back later I guess. Got some reading to do....

I faced five years in prison for standing up for what was right. I won, but that was just the beginning. Looking back, prison seems like the easier choice.



Those of us that stand up are met with misplaced opposition like the jester above.

I never intended my post to say that they are all brainwashed killers.
It might be more accurate to say that the training doesn't take into account the fact that they are still part of society whether they like it or not. You often get the distinct impression from the freshly trained soldiers that they consider the rest of society as inferior and a liability, when the reality is that the rest of society is the reason they bloody-well fight in the first place, The rest of society are where they were born and raised, nurtured and educated to one day become one of these people that risk their lives for the rest.

Never forget that that was a F%^$ng choice that YOU made. We are ALL equal despite what any of you want to believe.

What are the common complaints?
Civvy world is not structured, it's random and disorganised. Yeah look at this from another perspective, Civvy's have to use ingenuity to survive, they have no rule book on how to get by in society, just a very vague set of guidlines and a couple of laws which quite frankly can be twisted by a good lawyer.

No one is better then another because the things a trained soldier can do well are different from the things a civvy 'Lifer' can do well.

I've seen some of what you've experienced in my own friends who have gone off to the military.

I think the military provides a panacea bribe for everyone (usually men) who want belonging, a challenge, battle, and a living. Thing is... the military provides such an extreme and forced form of collective belonging AND towards goals which are ultimately some of the most destructive on the entire planet... that it becomes a dangerous/alienating phenomenon.

Humans need camaraderie, belonging, purpose, and so on... these are things which are lacking in many ways in our modern society. The military provides for many of these needs... but in a twisted/militaristic kind of way. Still though, the military is universally appealing to people (once again, especially males), even myself (more so when I was a kid), and I'm an Anarchist.

I definitely see a certain expectation of automatic respect, fear, pats on the back, and endless thank-yous from civilians towards military. However... I don't think most military would have made the choice to join up if there wasn't a decent paycheck, training, and increased school/career prospects (whether or not they delivered on these promises). As for those who join up to "kill the terrorists" and "defend our freedom" and so on... well, I know many people disagree with me... but those motivations are a load of sh**. Let's be real, we're not ACTUALLY defending our freedom in our (undeclared) wars of aggression/resources. And at MOST, the military provides passive defense against other nation-states... but at the end of the day, the problem isn't OTHER nation-states, per se, but ALL nation-states who threaten each other's safety (and mostly the lives/well-being of the civilians of any country).

The military provides certain sources of strength/confidence/pride/money in many people who lack any of that. Unfortunately, they provide it, all too often, based upon false-promises, allegiance to the government, cultish mentality, an elitist superiority complex, BS worldviews, and coercion/violence/militarism... which isn't to say that the military doesn't pepper their overall actions with good deeds towards humanity, but at the end of the day there's a lot of tragic brainwashing going on... and, within the military world, it's sadly almost necessary.

Them military is a tool. A tool like a gun. Civilians are a tool, a tool like a hammer, screw driver, drill or whatever you please.

each have a role to fill. It can be either used for good, or evil.

neither is better nor worse than the other. They are different, apples and oranges. Both have their bad traits being that.. . One side can be too "hard" to the point of dehumanization and the other side can be too "soft" like a cry baby with an allergy to everything and littler tolerance for harsh words.


the true problem is how these tools are used, and both sides fail at addressing that problem.

People keep joining the military not knowing exactly what they are fighting for other than their countrymen, freedom liberty and the constitution... yet if you look at how our government has used the military it has nothing to do with that. Our leaders continue to wage undeclared wars and not respect other countries sovereignty. We see a good offense as the best defense and are very warlike.

Yet un informed twits continue to join the ranks of our military continuing to support this bullcrap.

easy to point the finger at the civilians and washing your hands of responsibility by saying hey guys we are just tools.. do your job. well how about you stop joining to make a statement that you do not agree with our direction, they can't keep shooting that gun without the ammo.

Civilians.. are utter trash and garbage.. they moan and whine about their easy peasey life and care about nothing other than xbox, dancing with the stars and whatever other bs crap is on tv. Instead of watching that crap read a book about history and keep track on what the house and senate are up to. All your labor and taxes are used to perpetuate everything you hate. If you don't like what our military does.. do not allow your labor and taxes to support the war machine. simple as that. stop crapping on the military for doing what they are doing . If voting is not changing things then that means the system needs a change. insist on it.


look in the mirror and say I AM THE PROBLEM.


My point is why do people join the service to support war and destruction, and why do people who do not join not care that we are in the business of war and destruction.

why don't both parties tell the government that this is not working.. instead of jabbing at each other like down syndrome retards.


As of now both civvys and the military are utter garbage. they are being mis used.

reply to post by e11888


Yes. I am back on page 6.

Star for that post e11888. I may not agree with all of it, but I can certainly relate with most of it, and appreciate the sentiment behind those words, too.

Seems to me the topic of laws and intelligence came up in conversation, so I thought I would share a link and statistical data about this.

Wikipedia Article on IQ and the Wealth of Nations
There have been studies concerning IQs and national average IQs for countries. Some of this information is from a book, but they did not have accurate information for many countries where broader studies/data were not available.

The following map is from the above link to wikipedia's article on "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" - "a controversial 2002 book by Dr. Richard Lynn, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Ulster, Northern Ireland, and Dr. Tatu Vanhanen, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Tampere, Tampere, Finland." -wikipedia


According to the medical field and according to Westernized and Asian Laws in most countries an IQ of 70 or less in legally impaired (or "legally retarded" in some countries) and an IQ of 140 and above is the genius range.

According to internal United States of America's Congressional studies, own Education Department, and United Nation's studies the national average IQ for the U.S. is 98. 70 or 140. Which one is 98 a lot closer to?


About the laws I'll say this:

1) No child born tomorrow in America has ANY chance of living long enough to learn all the mandatory laws within their lifetime.

2) What is the specific number of laws in the United States of America?

3) If we took all of Congress,the Senators, Representatives, and Supreme Court Justices and locked them up in some plush hotel with all the pens and paper they needed, and did not let them out until they collectively wrote down all the existing laws word for word, do you honestly believe they would live long enough to accomplish the task?

4) Americans, average IQ 98, are still electing more law makers to make more laws. The people voting do not know the number of laws, let alone what they all are, or what they all mean when held in context with eachother simultaneously.

5) The laws all American citizens must comply with and conform to are NOT required learning in schools.

Originally posted by yaluk
Them military is a tool. A tool like a gun. Civilians are a tool, a tool like a hammer, screw driver, drill or whatever you please.

each have a role to fill. It can be either used for good, or evil.

neither is better nor worse than the other. They are different, apples and oranges. Both have their bad traits being that.. . One side can be too "hard" to the point of dehumanization and the other side can be too "soft" like a cry baby with an allergy to everything and littler tolerance for harsh words.


the true problem is how these tools are used, and both sides fail at addressing that problem.

People keep joining the military not knowing exactly what they are fighting for other than their countrymen, freedom liberty and the constitution... yet if you look at how our government has used the military it has nothing to do with that. Our leaders continue to wage undeclared wars and not respect other countries sovereignty. We see a good offense as the best defense and are very warlike.

Yet un informed twits continue to join the ranks of our military continuing to support this bullcrap.

easy to point the finger at the civilians and washing your hands of responsibility by saying hey guys we are just tools.. do your job. well how about you stop joining to make a statement that you do not agree with our direction, they can't keep shooting that gun without the ammo.

Civilians.. are utter trash and garbage.. they moan and whine about their easy peasey life and care about nothing other than xbox, dancing with the stars and whatever other bs crap is on tv. Instead of watching that crap read a book about history and keep track on what the house and senate are up to. All your labor and taxes are used to perpetuate everything you hate. If you don't like what our military does.. do not allow your labor and taxes to support the war machine. simple as that. stop crapping on the military for doing what they are doing . If voting is not changing things then that means the system needs a change. insist on it.


look in the mirror and say I AM THE PROBLEM.


My point is why do people join the service to support war and destruction, and why do people who do not join not care that we are in the business of war and destruction.

why don't both parties tell the government that this is not working.. instead of jabbing at each other like down syndrome retards.


As of now both civvys and the military are utter garbage. they are being mis used.

Spot on. Why are we fighting each other? We know who the real enemy is and it's not a bunch of goat herders in some far off country, it's the sheep herders in our own countries.

Like i said in the OP. Why do i have to say goodbye to people i care about when they join? Why do they feel the need to walk away from me in the first place?

My best mate is in the forces and he is still my best mate, we relate on just about everything and rarely dis-agree so it's not a standard, it's not like every single person HAS to become a machine.
I pulled him back towards society and he pulled me towards the military and we found common ground in-between. It is possible for us to find that common ground but first we have to let go of the idea that we (as individuals) have all the answers and that we are always right.

The defense force has been good to me and i've tried to be supportive to them (in a civilian capacity)
I've recently sent off an application to join the Australian Defense Force but have not heard back as yet. I do feel apprehensive about it, not sure if i'm making the right choice, after all we can't all be in the forces, some of us have to stay behind to populate the society that they are fighting for in the first place.

The issues that i've had have been more recent and involved other people.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

The military is what you make it.

Some serve with honor, some project their own sadism unto it.

When a man finds a purpose, it changes him. Whether or not his intended goal is a benefit to him or anyone else is another point entirely. Don't dismiss out of hand the fact that some men become better people and better in service to humanity by serving their country.