Military training and it's effect on humans

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by BIGPoJo

 

Yeah there better than us for murdering people in a different country all to protect "assets" if you think they are fighting for freedom or for you...you sir are in a major case of denial

IF and thats a BIG IF war was declared I would show more respect towards military and alot of other people would too but it never has been declared so they are occupying a country illegally there not actually fighting anything they are protecting assets and freedom is not one of them

edit on 16-11-2011 by Evanzsayz because: (no reason given)

Yes, a very naive comment i must say! I absolutely cant believe that there are people that actually think this way but rest assured if it wasnt for those of us that have and still do defend this land. You'd be speaking chinese or someother language by now! What a friggin ass toad. Open your eyes and pick up your skirt!

reply to post by CaptainIraq


I do understand that. I just think you need to choose your words a little wiser...or movie quotes for that matter. I realize that you go into combat and it's kill or be killed. I said that in my first comment. I thought your "job" was to protect our freedoms...not just kill people. That is what I had a problem with you saying.

reply to post by Raivan31


From about the time warrior's were slowly shaped into foot-infantry with muskets the dehumanisation has been taking shape.
This is also coincidentally the time when warlords, princes and knights tended to go from leading the fighting from the front to lurking at the rear as officers instead.
Soldier's no longer fought individually with their own arms with some of the natural inhibitations but followed orders for loading and firing muskets etc.
Still, it wasn't until WW1 that soldiers really saw the brutality of modern warfare in their faces.
The militarisation of the mind for new recruits got really going during WW2 and afterwards. That was when soldiers were psychologically 'broken-down' and rebuilt again.
In the British Forces it's somewhat hardcore. But the US Marines are the ultimate in machine-minded-soldiery.

I'm ex-forces btw. Did long enough to do me good, not long enough to get sucked in to the institutionalised bs etc.
What pssed me about the forces was they detest individuality.
They don't want you having your own gear, your own style or your own mind.
Back in the olden times warriors / soldiers provided their own kit and would be allowed a lot more freedom of movement. Not now and not for a long time.

Citizen militia's such as Switzerland's, Norway are a good model for having non-militarised.
Even the unofficial militia's in the US have the right approach, some more regulatory than others.

I recall a scene in the film Waterloo where Wellington is told that Napoleon himself is within range of their artillery and should they fire?.
This was at the prelude to the battle commencing (all the army's lined up etc).
Wellington replied 'Absolutely not!'
That's the attitude between the elites, they look to their own, even on opposite sides of the battlefield...
It didn't matter to him that if they'd slain Napoleon they'd of saved thousand's of infantry, cavalry at the boom of a cannon.

It is a pure act of altruism to serve in the defence force. This is also shown by police, fireman and ambulance officers.

It's a trait that is in most animals including humans. This is why a bird will give a warning call of a predator even at the risk of becoming the centre of attention to that predator.

Why soldier ants will fight on until the end to protect their nest and why soldier termites will rush out of their nest while the others close the entrances behind them.

It's why one particular soldier will display a selfless act of sacrfice for the others.

It is why a person will jump into flood waters to save a stranger.

Perhaps those of you who criticise soldiers actually have something missing from your humanity. Perhaps it is you who has the problem since you fail to display what is obviously a trait that helps to ensure the survival of a species, clan, tribe or colony.



www.altruists.org...

Check this out.

The suffix " - ure" means "STATE OF".

Now ask yourself, what does the word "Culture" really mean?

Look around you in every part of the world, people adopt a "culture".

Think about this word for awhile, and look at how it is pervasive everywhere in almost every facet of existence.

reply to post by Raivan31


Lets see, you take a group of (mostly) barely pubescent people, just discovering their sexuality, and you bunk them together in same-sex mass accommodations.

Then you tell them, either overtly or covertly, that homosexuality is wrong.

Then you place them under physical and emotional performance pressure so they cannot have time to think through their situation.

With all their unresolved angst, you teach them to kill, not motivated by their own drives and desires, but on order.

The evil genius behind it all is evident.

reply to post by muzzleflash

The suffix " - ure" means "STATE OF".

Well, if Boncho were around I know he would say, 'Bazinga!'

So, Bazinga!

I have found it very useful to use the lexicon developed by the (not so) late French genius of Sociology, Pierre Bordieu: en.wikipedia.org...

He concieved of people as operants in a 'field'. The field can be any social field you can think of. Each field has its own doxa, which is the underlying status or state (hypostasis) of any given field. The doxa is the common sense attributes required by any operant that wants to be successful in any field and the emodiment of this doxa is called habitus. If you are an operant in any field you are probably not even aware of your habitus. Maybe a slight shock of exhilaration is felt at assuming the new garb, I can only speculate, but a slick operant with great desire to join any field will not be aware of this. Unless they stop to take a look. But I guess someone would have to warn them in the first place. Anyhow..

Imagine a bowler operating in his chosen field as a champion in his sport. He bowls strikes one after another. But suppose just before he threw the final strike of the game some jackass asked him, "Hey, how do you do that?", the bowler doesn't know, he just bowls strikes. So he stops to take a look at how he does it, he is no longer bowling strikes he is thinking about bowling strikes.

Trying to get the Armed Forces to take a look at themselves in this way would require somethin' I can't even begin to describe.

What MuzzleFlash has pulled the trigger on and I have tried to elaborate on is the key, I believe to bringing it all down, it resolves itself by the Dialectic, but how to get everyone talking? That is one of the reasons that I think Raivan has been so solidly applauded for his OP.

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Raivan31

 

Lets see, you take a group of (mostly) barely pubescent people, just discovering their sexuality, and you bunk them together in same-sex mass accommodations.

Then you tell them, either overtly or covertly, that homosexuality is wrong.

Then you place them under physical and emotional performance pressure so they cannot have time to think through their situation.

With all their unresolved angst, you teach them to kill, not motivated by their own drives and desires, but on order.

The evil genius behind it all is evident.

Except for your last line of stupidity, you just described every frat house across the globe. You're a moron. And do you want a military that, once the team leader says "CONTACT! TEN OCLOCK HIGH!" everyone sits back and reflects on their place in the universe and the moral obligations of mankind toward other people (because the guy at 10 high with the AK is similarly reflecting) and whether or not taking a life in this particular instance is justified, and what will my mommy think?

And why is the sky blue?

(rhetorical question) Are you a total moron?

Humans fight. We wage war. It's what we do. Buy a history book.

Don't like it? Me either, but we are what we are.

The guys that fight the best survive the longest. Period. 6 centuries of warfare don't lie. Again: don't like it? Don't want to play? There's a nice hole over there for the next mass grave with your name on it. YOU can't change humanity.

What you can do, is be a member of a nation that fields a force founded in principles of empathy and fairness. OR, you can be at the bottom of the mass grave and no one will care what you think after you're dead. Your choice.

I guess the intent of this thread is to suggest that people that go into the military always return as brainwashed individuals and a danger to society.

I can understand why the anti military crowd would feel that way but what about the people at the other end of the spectrum and at opposite side of the same pyramid?

What about the majority of students of modern academia?
They too can be considered "brainwashed" by their holier than thou, liberal professors and returning to society with their progressive agendas, just as dangerous to the future of this country.

It's amazing the incredibly high esteem the Military guy's hold themselves in. If i didn't know better i would think they where all superhero's. It's noticeable that the ordinary non-military guy's don't seem to regard them as high as they believed, shock horror, what a come down. No body understands and nobody seems to care. How dare they! Boo hoo.

They do brainwash you, no doubt about it. As soon as you get there they shave your head and crush individuality and destroy personal thought. The good thing about the military is they tell you what to do and you and your life is in their hands. So in a way life is simple. I don't mean easier but their is that simplicity. Bootcamp molds you into a robot that takes orders and questions nothing. You get yelled at and can't even look the instructor in the eyes. You just obey, obey, obey. That is why you will never ever see a photo of a guy who graduated bootcamp where he is smiling. It's always him/her with that thousand yard stare. There is good and bad for sure but it's all done in a way that destroys your individuality.
When I was in bootcamp we were so brainwashed and well, naive beyond belief that when we were "offered" to take an experimental pneumonia vaccine in exchange for a 2 minute phone call, we all without question took the vaccine. That's right people. They are doing this and using recruits as pharmaceutical guinea pigs. Take it from me we all got sick and some got pneumonia shortly after. And just after bootcamp all I dreamed and daydreamed about was putting my elbow through someones face. We wanted to fight the way an abused son wants to fight his dad.
The military can teach you great things as well as college but if the public school system was worth a crap then by the time you were 18 you wouldn't need it. And by the time you graduated high school you wouldn't be dumb enough to join. Brainwashing UFC Marine commercials, Call Of Duty type games, and parents and TV ads telling you that if you join the military that you will be an instant hero are what makes kids join in the first place and that's has to be addressed. Oh and lets not forget media manipulation that makes us think we have to invade countries to keep ourselves free.
We thought WW1 would end all wars, then WW2 came and was bigger than anything, then we have the forgotten war and the Vietnam and people say never again but then we have Iraq and another forgotten war and it just keeps happening over and over. What the hell is wrong with people. How many times must history repeat itself?!! It's like people are so used to sacrificing liberties for freedom that we've all become apathetic.

Originally posted by Alxandro
I guess the intent of this thread is to suggest that people that go into the military always return as brainwashed individuals and a danger to society.

I can understand why the anti military crowd would feel that way but what about the people at the other end of the spectrum and at opposite side of the same pyramid?

What about the majority of students of modern academia?
They too can be considered "brainwashed" by their holier than thou, liberal professors and returning to society with their progressive agendas, just as dangerous to the future of this country.

see my earlier post in this thread about peer groups. People change peer groups often throughout life, the OP is disingenuous in implying that the military is the sole "offender."

Go get a PhD. Bet you don't hang out with people that have GED's. I'll bet you hang out with PhDs. I'd bet the rent.

The OP just hates the military and is looking for an excuse.

Originally posted by standrkm
They do brainwash you, no doubt about it.

I spent 5 years pushing troops through basic training. There was no brain washing. The learning objectives centered around teamwork, attention to detail and the ability to complete a task individually and as a group. All training centered around that. The brainwashing meme is horsecrap fostered by small minds.

I had 8 weeks to teach those kids what their parents failed to teach them in 18 years: do what you're told, and do it right, and I don't want to hear and freaking whining about it.

I was (and still am) actually very very good at it.

I agree with Big PoJo in every word. I am a Vet, and I did not treat anyone any less after serving in the war, I was puzzeled where they all evaporated to, but that might have been the same had I gone away to a distant College. As for throwing away friends, I don't remember any that wouldn't have just faded away. You sound like your having personal problems of a emotional nature, with attatchment to individuals and I would suggest that 'some' are dysfunctional. I don't mean any cruelty by that, just be aware, your statements are excedingly one-sided as you state your observations as a fact and truth. I'll grant that there are some fairly squirrley individuals with pre-existing mental conditions who join the service.... but Everybody has the chance to contribute to their country, some just choose not to, under any circumstance. Do I think less of them.... frankly yes. I do, and the reason is that they enjoy the fruits of freedom, yet are unwilling to earn any of those fruits, instead enjoy the comfort and safety at other peoples expense. The real world is not a nice place, nor is the likleyhood, that it will be that way any time soon. But, I don't try to persuede anyone of my values, but I won't let untruths stand either.

What has happened to people that they cannot understand any longer the exhilaration and joy of working together as a group?

Has 'individuality' been pushed so far in our culture that people are now so 'individual' that they are a danger to themselves and society? I would say Yes!

What I am hearing from some of these people on this thread, that have never been there, in terms of soldiers being 'robotized' and 'brainwashed' is just so #ing dangerously misunderstood.

Listen, we are not robotized and brainwashed by the military. If we had been conscripted, OK, maybe. But in America we are not, we #ing volunteer.

I volunteered twice; once for the Army and again for jump school.

We do not sign up to be robotized or brainwashed we sign up to empowered. Empowered by training and most importantly Permission.

Empowered to experience the fullness of our humanity as we work like a clockwork machine to get # done. Together.

If you do not know what I mean by that then go back a page or two and read my previous posts.

Do we think we are superheroes? By definition we have more permission, while operating in our selected field, than you do if you are not a soldier. Are we heroes? I'll leave that to others. Are we Super? # yeah we are super.

Deal with it.

And I certainly take issue with Muzzelflash ....... Your opening statement is rubbish.

Ummmm when you join the military especailly, Army infantry, Marines, and other combat forces they are training you to be a killing machine, you are correct that they brainwash and make the soldiers feel that they are above everyone else. However if this is not done, our soldiers will be in even more of a worse way than you or I can imagine.

Have you ever been in a combat zone, do you know what its like to have bullets wiz by your head, to have friends die in your arms, see women , children, and the enemys body parts from the aftermath? I dont and im very greatful that there are those people who step up to do this.

The problem is the majority of people who join the military are not joining to become rambo, they are joining for college tuition, health insurance, becuase they cant find work elsewhere. These people are not soldiers, they are normal civilians that have made a choice because they were running out of options. I have seen both sides of this fence, two very close friends I have grown up with since middle school joined the military, one because he 'always wanted to be in the military" and the other for the reasons i posted above. My buddy who was the gun hoe type joined the marines, this kid was as hard as the stone we walk on. He joined in 2003 if im correct , he has spent most of his time in afghanistan during his tours, he lost his hearing in his left ear due to an explosion that was close by. He just came home a month ago from San Diego, and its like he never left, same kid, same jokes, same everything with the exception of the gross amount of muscle he has accumulated lol.


Then there is my other buddy, Dennis Poulin ( RIP) he joined for health coverage for his son and a steady income, he changed as time passed over seas, I can remember the last time I talked with him, it was late night around 9pm the phone was getting passed around so the crowd at my house could all wish him well. When the phone was given to me the talk was light he seemed very tired and very soft spoken but seemed to be in somewhat of good spirts. I asked him in all honesty how things were going , he replied with "a day does not go by where we are being attacked, morterd, or ambused"

Dennis did not make it back to the states alive, he was killed the next day in Anbar provence of Afghanistan, what kept him mentally in tact was the fact that he was trained to be in that situtation but war was starting to get to him, im not saying his death was due to this, becuase it was not. People are all wired differently some need, some have, some give and some are missing the mental capacity to handle this job.

This is just a byproduct of the type of military recruiting system we have.

I love my vets., I was married twice both were vets, we grew up together and yes, they came home different, my second husband and I have been together forty years, I knew him since I was sixteen, he came home angry, although it has been all these years since he was in the Marines, he is definitely different then guys that have never been in the been military.

I wouldn't want him any other way.

Originally posted by Hootsmanwheresmaheid
It's amazing the incredibly high esteem the Military guy's hold themselves in. If i didn't know better i would think they where all superhero's. It's noticeable that the ordinary non-military guy's don't seem to regard them as high as they believed, shock horror, what a come down. No body understands and nobody seems to care. How dare they! Boo hoo.

He was always my hero, never a braggart, seldom talks about his years in the military, but in his younger years he is the guy I wanted to be on my side when the going gets tough.

Everyone is different we cannot lump these guys all in the same category.

Originally posted by steveknows
It is a pure act of altruism to serve in the defence force. This is also shown by police, fireman and ambulance officers.

It's a trait that is in most animals including humans. This is why a bird will give a warning call of a predator even at the risk of becoming the centre of attention to that predator.

Why soldier ants will fight on until the end to protect their nest and why soldier termites will rush out of their nest while the others close the entrances behind them.

It's why one particular soldier will display a selfless act of sacrfice for the others.

It is why a person will jump into flood waters to save a stranger.

Perhaps those of you who criticise soldiers actually have something missing from your humanity. Perhaps it is you who has the problem since you fail to display what is obviously a trait that helps to ensure the survival of a species, clan, tribe or colony.



www.altruists.org...

edit on 16-11-2011 by steveknows because: Typo

That's the warrior ethic.
Soldier ethic is slightly different and more subject to elite control...