Military training and it's effect on humans

reply to post by NoHierarchy


I didn't read all that. I just like stars so I gave you a star for you avatar.

Originally posted by yaluk
Them military is a tool. A tool like a gun. Civilians are a tool, a tool like a hammer, screw driver, drill or whatever you please.

each have a role to fill. It can be either used for good, or evil.

neither is better nor worse than the other. They are different, apples and oranges. Both have their bad traits being that.. . One side can be too "hard" to the point of dehumanization and the other side can be too "soft" like a cry baby with an allergy to everything and littler tolerance for harsh words.


the true problem is how these tools are used, and both sides fail at addressing that problem.

People keep joining the military not knowing exactly what they are fighting for other than their countrymen, freedom liberty and the constitution... yet if you look at how our government has used the military it has nothing to do with that. Our leaders continue to wage undeclared wars and not respect other countries sovereignty. We see a good offense as the best defense and are very warlike.

Yet un informed twits continue to join the ranks of our military continuing to support this bullcrap.

easy to point the finger at the civilians and washing your hands of responsibility by saying hey guys we are just tools.. do your job. well how about you stop joining to make a statement that you do not agree with our direction, they can't keep shooting that gun without the ammo.

Civilians.. are utter trash and garbage.. they moan and whine about their easy peasey life and care about nothing other than xbox, dancing with the stars and whatever other bs crap is on tv. Instead of watching that crap read a book about history and keep track on what the house and senate are up to. All your labor and taxes are used to perpetuate everything you hate. If you don't like what our military does.. do not allow your labor and taxes to support the war machine. simple as that. stop crapping on the military for doing what they are doing . If voting is not changing things then that means the system needs a change. insist on it.


look in the mirror and say I AM THE PROBLEM.


My point is why do people join the service to support war and destruction, and why do people who do not join not care that we are in the business of war and destruction.

why don't both parties tell the government that this is not working.. instead of jabbing at each other like down syndrome retards.


As of now both civvys and the military are utter garbage. they are being mis used.

Quoted For Truth. This is the best post in the entire thread. Read it and then read it again.

reply to post by tangonine


I have an IQ that puts me in the top 7% of the people on the planet.

In my youth, I was in the Air Force, but I'm an old dude now (and fortunately, I got here without having used deadly force against another human being).

I could be a moron, but I hardly think that being a non-combatant by choice qualifies me there.

You see, if no-one takes up arms against another, then there is no war. Thinking that military force protects you is false.

Please have a look at these 19 countries without a standing army and especially Costa Rica. It has the highest standard of living of all its neighbor states, despite the fact that it has to deal with the constant migration (legal & illegal) from those states.

It is also perched perilously between Nicaragua & Panama, states that would invade if they had the slightest reason, but it remains resolutely demilitarized & un-invaded.

The truth of the matter is that you appear to believe that a military force prevents warfare. The opposite is provably and logically the case.

Peace (really!).

reply to post by BIGPoJo

A uniform does not make a man great. A man makes the uniform great.

That being said Military personnel are humans just like civilians. There are good and bad just the same.

Plenty of civvies put their lives on the line and work like hell. The entire nation isn't couch surfing while you are in theater. Some of us are building things like Apaches, F-22s and the Steam plants to power those factories. Some of us are mining coal for the steam plant, some of us are growing food to feed us all and cotton to keep us warm. Meanwhile some poor bastards get to work in the oil refineries that make mechanized warfare possible, facing odorless asphyxiation if a line leaks.

No doubt Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors and Marines put their lives on the line everyday. That doesn't mean that they are the only humans on this rock that put out.

reply to post by Raivan31


They have learned to live a disciplined life. The don't go around thinking they are better than you though in many ways they will be. Sometimes the new disciplined life makes them so different that they no longer acomfortableble arouundisciplinedned people, they no longer fit in. Some of your points are correct but having a chip on your shoulder about it ridiculeslas.

I spent 20 years in the service and have pounded the ground in nearly all middle eastern countries while at war and I am still trying to learn to relax and live as civilian. I regret that I lost a part of myself from my pre service days that I will never recover.naivetyevity is what I miss the most as once you see the world atrulyruely is it is hard to go back and just relax.

They have grown away from you. Don't hate them, be proud of them, and let em go.

Originally posted by Xeven
reply to post by Raivan31

 

They have learned to live a disciplined life. The don't go around thinking they are better than you though in many ways they will be. Sometimes the new disciplined life makes them so different that they no longer acomfortableble arouundisciplinedned people, they no longer fit in. Some of your points are correct but having a chip on your shoulder about it ridiculeslas.

I spent 20 years in the service and have pounded the ground in nearly all middle eastern countries while at war and I am still trying to learn to relax and live as civilian. I regret that I lost a part of myself from my pre service days that I will never recover.naivetyevity is what I miss the most as once you see the world atrulyruely is it is hard to go back and just relax.

They have grown away from you. Don't hate them, be proud of them, and let em go.

I don't lack discipline, I had more enthusiasm and discipline then my mate did before he joined. I was the outgoing one full of confidence and with a glass half full mentality. And it is not a case of them growing away from me either.
It is a case of having a good relationship formed and then having them suddenly, one day just opting out of it, no reason given, just gone.

The particular event that sparked my emotional rant in the OP was only a few days ago and the person involved has not even started training yet, they are an army brat, their parents are long serving members of the forces.

They hit an emotional low, depression, and made a choice (and it still remains to be seen if they follow through) So they have started they're pre-training, with the benefit of access to defence force gyms and whatnot. They have surrounded themselves with defence personnel to help them to train and they have excluded themselves completely from all of their friends.

"I hope you understand" was the final line of the 'dear john' email that i recieved.

Of course i wrote back something along the lines of...

"I understand mate and i wish you the best. It's great to see you take the inititive and make some positive changes for yourself. goodluck. I will miss you."

So it's not like i'm being completely biased about this. I just hate how these dramatic and sweeping life changes must be made. I invested myself in a relationship, I offered support and promised my endurance in being there for them. but they still feel the need to cut me off completely.
I'm not saying i blame them and i wasn't even really trying to diss the training program. I was just kinda bitchn about the sadness that i feel at having to let them go... I needed an outlet, this was my only option for one so here i am.

I'm just sick to death at trying to form relationships with military and being disappointed by the failure.
And i have all the same axe's to grind with the civilian population as every military person i've ever known, which is why we generally get along.
But when it comes time for them to focus on something military related, I (the civvy) get cut off while all of their military friends get to stay in contact, i don't even get given a chance to prove my loyalty during the fact and all of the shared experiences i've had with them seem to amount to nothing.

Give me a chance, just cause i'm a civvy doesn't nessecarily mean that i cannot learn to understand.

I want to join the defence force simply so i can maintain these relationships. so i'm no longer 'out of the loop'

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by tangonine

 

I have an IQ that puts me in the top 7% of the people on the planet.

In my youth, I was in the Air Force, but I'm an old dude now (and fortunately, I got here without having used deadly force against another human being).

I could be a moron, but I hardly think that being a non-combatant by choice qualifies me there.

You see, if no-one takes up arms against another, then there is no war. Thinking that military force protects you is false.

Please have a look at these 19 countries without a standing army and especially Costa Rica. It has the highest standard of living of all its neighbor states, despite the fact that it has to deal with the constant migration (legal & illegal) from those states.

It is also perched perilously between Nicaragua & Panama, states that would invade if they had the slightest reason, but it remains resolutely demilitarized & un-invaded.

The truth of the matter is that you appear to believe that a military force prevents warfare. The opposite is provably and logically the case.

Peace (really!).

Most of those countries listed are leaches being protected by another military - would you want the UN to protect us. If we/they don't follow the 'advice' of the protecting entities they would lose their protection status. A standing military protects what you want to do - not what another country wants you to do. Sadly our country is in the hands of bankers and huge arse corporations.

Ever been to the marshal islands - the natives have little control over their own lives - we, the white man, pretty much do whatever we want there as long as we pay the guys 'in charge' of their country. No really - the natives on the marshal islands live on the out laying islands that are rampaged with cholera while the 'main land' is a huge arse air field with the natives living in meager conditions while the whites live in 'better' conditions (think of a single wide 2br trailer or an air-stream camper).

Yeah I want to live in a country that has no standing army and must do what the protecting forces tell us to do because they pay bookuu bucks to our spineless leaders. Your IQ needs to travel more and learn the truth.

America is the hand of justice and truth - if it wasn't for the USA all of Europe would be speaking German. The Pacific would be speaking Japanese (ok ok, Guam and Hawaii already do that, but just from the immigrants not rulers). The English speaking countries are the protectors of what is justice....until the bankers need us to silence opposition. If it wasn't for US'A forefathers foresight, we would all be screwed.

Your ball.

edit: Top 7% is like 120 right?

I feel sorry for you that you only have met self absorbed military people. Funny I feel the same way about people who attend college and think their better than anyone else....Ive done both and you have aholes in every walk of life. I think your confusing comradery with arrogance, my best friends are police officers and to some they may think cops are full of themselves but to those who know why it seems that way ,its pretty simple. I think you should join, put in your time and see what its about before making a statement such as this.


Bill

reply to post by Raivan31


And why is this us vs them a bad thing? A well trained army brain washed to defend the republic is nothing short of brilliant for the contingency of traditional American way of government.

Because guess what. They are elite, and they are a brotherhood. And they'd sooner shoot their generals and the politicians than shoot you.

That's the point. They're brainwashed to serve you till death. And yes, that does make them better.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Raivan31

 

And why is this us vs them a bad thing? A well trained army brain washed to defend the republic is nothing short of brilliant for the contingency of traditional American way of government.

Because guess what. They are elite, and they are a brotherhood. And they'd sooner shoot their generals and the politicians than shoot you.

That's the point. They're brainwashed to serve you till death. And yes, that does make them better.

edit on 16-11-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)

The opinions expressed by posters do not nessecarily reflect the opinion of the OP.
Brainwashing is too strong a word to use to describe the forces. Institutionalized does fit a lot better and i went to a catholic school so i know what being institutionalised feels like.

My OP was written as a feeling rather then a "this is what i believe" statement. This is my feelings but not nessecarily my beliefs.

reply to post by Raivan31


fair enough.

But as a graduate of a catholic education. I have to speak on institutionalization: it doesn't work if the student sees hypocracy. Indeed, the presence of hypocracy ad lies leads to apathy. To put it plainly, look at their fruits.

Originally posted by WatchRider

Originally posted by steveknows
It is a pure act of altruism to serve in the defence force. This is also shown by police, fireman and ambulance officers.

It's a trait that is in most animals including humans. This is why a bird will give a warning call of a predator even at the risk of becoming the centre of attention to that predator.

Why soldier ants will fight on until the end to protect their nest and why soldier termites will rush out of their nest while the others close the entrances behind them.

It's why one particular soldier will display a selfless act of sacrfice for the others.

It is why a person will jump into flood waters to save a stranger.

Perhaps those of you who criticise soldiers actually have something missing from your humanity. Perhaps it is you who has the problem since you fail to display what is obviously a trait that helps to ensure the survival of a species, clan, tribe or colony.



www.altruists.org...

edit on 16-11-2011 by steveknows because: Typo

That's the warrior ethic.
Soldier ethic is slightly different and more subject to elite control...

Thats makes no sense.

I think that this is more common in the USA.

I've never found this with Canadian military personnel. I have with US military. Germans do sometimes. Brits don't.

More cultural than military.

reply to post by wWizard


Listen up sonny boy...The military has never fought for me. They fought for the Duponts and other corporations that profit from making biological weapons. Do you want me to shout hoorah for Napalm and Round up?

reply to post by Raivan31


I suggest you simply make new friends. Those who have surrendered themselves to serve in Satans army are merely stressing you out for no other reason than they are evil. Walk with the lord kindness will follow.

reply to post by Raivan31


Hey Raivin,
I'd just like to say that your honesty is both refreshing and inspiring. I respect you for following your heart and coming to the conclusion of maybe joining your friends, loved ones in military service. While I dont pretend to know you it seems simple to me that you have a good character and would have little trouble making friends so maybe a change of surroundings could be inspirational for you. I mean there are plenty of places detached from the risk of losing friends and loved ones to the military and if your at a time in your life where your ready to step into a new path, why not really go for it. As far as your decision goes the military will be lucky to have you, but as far as those friends, loved ones that seem ready to turn there backs for their futures, maybe they dont deserve to have you as friend.

Simply my two cents and i wish whatever happens you find what you deserve, what we all deserve. Meaningful and lasting relationships.

Peace

reply to post by ChuckNasty


My point is; that the "military industrial complex" is a self supporting circle. Without it we'd have no need for it, since it exists, we are forced to comply.

It takes great courage and conviction to refute but we will have no real peace until we (as a species) do so.

The peculiar peace by détente that we are currently enjoying has been described as two men, immersed in petroleum up to their necks and holding aloft lit matches. At some stage someone will slip or deliberately drop their match. It's just a matter of time and the conflagration will consume both.

PS: My mean IQ (I have done different tests at different times and have scored both above & below this figure) is 138. It only really proves that I am good at particular types of puzzles & hasn't really given me any advantage (that I can see) at all in my life

reply to post by chr0naut


Nice analogy, they have both dropped their matches and we are slowly burning while the masses figure out what clown will win x factor. We are at the precipice for the first time as a civilization, A crazy time to exist indeed.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Raivan31

 

fair enough.

But as a graduate of a catholic education. I have to speak on institutionalization: it doesn't work if the student sees hypocracy. Indeed, the presence of hypocracy ad lies leads to apathy. To put it plainly, look at their fruits.

Well you just summed up my experiences with Catholic education nicely right there.

I intentionally got myself expelled in highschool just to get away from it.
Surprisingly difficult to get expelled from School.

Originally posted by InspirationEverywhere
reply to post by Raivan31

 

Hey Raivin,
I'd just like to say that your honesty is both refreshing and inspiring. I respect you for following your heart and coming to the conclusion of maybe joining your friends, loved ones in military service. While I dont pretend to know you it seems simple to me that you have a good character and would have little trouble making friends so maybe a change of surroundings could be inspirational for you. I mean there are plenty of places detached from the risk of losing friends and loved ones to the military and if your at a time in your life where your ready to step into a new path, why not really go for it. As far as your decision goes the military will be lucky to have you, but as far as those friends, loved ones that seem ready to turn there backs for their futures, maybe they dont deserve to have you as friend.

Simply my two cents and i wish whatever happens you find what you deserve, what we all deserve. Meaningful and lasting relationships.

Peace

Hey, wow. Thanks. thats exactly the kind of positive feedback i was hoping for. I had sometrouble accuratly expressing myself (which is strange for me) and i think some people got the wrong idea from what i was saying.
You got the right idea though and thankyou.

I have managed to go back to my 'old life' now. Though it isn't particulary exciting it is stable and i think i'm gonna avoid romantic relationships for a while, this last one built me up nice and high then dropped me, freefalling and i couldn't understand why.

Thank you again (: