A few questions for Christians

If I believe in what Christ did for me on Calvary does that meant I belong to a religion ? If I choose to believe in
an existence that is greater than our existence. And that existence is not only responsible for, but out right owns
all of existence as per any Creator creation relation. Who says that is a religion ? Does God have a religion ?
Religion is of man. Christ is of the Father.

Down to brass tacks, aren't you really just asking, how can someone believe in GOD when man is so messed up ?

Originally posted by randomname
how many people did Jesus kill. i'll tell you the answer, 0.

Depends....do you believe Jesus and God are the same as most christians do? If so, then it's in the millions if not billions.

reply to post by Athin




To be, as you have called it, “True Christian”, what one must do is follow the teaching of Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Church may call themselves Christian, but you and I both are able to discern that it does Not follow the teachings of Jesus.

Following a Religion’s dogma is very different from following the teaching of Jesus.

Religions, and that is ALL Religions have left the path of the original teacher.

So, what are we to learn from this ?

Religions are a man made device to direct followers AWAY from the path of Spiritual enlightenment.

You do yourself a great dis-service when you confuse the Spiritual Teachings of the original Teacher with the religions that have grown after them.

Now, let us discuss the Bible. The Bible contains many Spiritual truths and lessons, it also contains many directions that you and I would in no way act upon. So do you “throw out the baby with the bath water” Of course not. A person who is attempting to become Spiritually enlighten will use what they can and disregard the rest. When Jesus was faced with one of the very issues that you present, the story of the Adulteress woman what was his teaching ? Jesus taught that we all fall short, that we should not condemn each other, we should identify our short comings and do better next time. That is the lesson.
John 8

1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

A person who is attempting to become Spiritually awake will find the Bible a great source of Truths, but this person will also be able to learn enlightenment from other sources along their path as well.

My advice to you is don’t allow the mis-guided to lead you.

Being born human, you have been created as both spirit and body, you must understand that you must “feed” both to grow.

reply to post by Athin


It isn't about all life being sacred, it's about INNOCENT life being sacred. I am a christian (so to speak) and I agree with your position on the bible. I think your question should be more specifically directed to Fundamentalist Christians... those who take the Bible at face value and understand it in a literal fashion.

i would like just one thing from Christians, please do provide an example of fulfilled biblical prophecy that has happened in the modern era of men. Not some story in a book with no way to verify its truth or veracity. lets limit it to lets say the last 100 years.

wont happen, the only "fulfilled prophecies" are in the book. so i claim that ALL biblical prophecies (that claim to be fulfilled) are false and are as provable as, the creation myth. (scientific genetic study has shown that man came from several unique groups and several unique gene pools.) the one man and woman birthing the entire human race bedtime story is ludicrous.

The books in the Bible were written by various prophets, apostles and disciples yet the Bible itself was put together by a council of men. Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out? The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it. The dead sea scrolls also make reference to it. Yet most of Christians have never even heard of this book. To those who have I'd like to know what you think about it.

reply to post by Athin


First off....I would want to know how you have come up with "Most Christians have never heard of this book"? What makes you an authority over the statistics? Had you said "Most Christians are lead by faith alone" I may have believed you.

With any writings just as yours above one can pick at and poke at it to become whatever we wish within our perception of truth. When one truly seeks out answers and tries to solve a mystery or problem, the sky is really the limit (possibly) as to how far one will go in seeking out truth.

It is in my opinion a personal journey. Asking questions on a forum is a good start but each and every one of us are different with a different perception and will indeed have a different out come of ones personal "truth".

The Bible contains men's stories as other religious/spiritual texts do. Since man was able to communicate....this has been the case and the truth of the matter is .... they have all believed in something greater than ourselves.

The world we live in has always had murderers and reasons are plentiful. How can anyone contend it is one race or one religion that is the cause? You can't. Selfishness and ego play a major role and one person from a group being mentally challenged within the spectrum of self does not make the entire group the same.

I think if anyone reads and studies the Bible's history and Jesus Christ for a length of time will understand and possibly be able to decipher right and wrong. Should be able to anyway...but some have loose marbles and they just float around causing more strife...but that is the world we live in. There are many people who like to divide to conquer. Surely you could have found your own answers in regards to this subject by possibly creating a poll for starters. But instead you chose to come on to a forum to try and divided and conquer based on little knowledge you have in regards to the Word Of God within the Bible or any other text for that matter. Why people do this is beyond me but I assume it is because they are lazy and want a quick answer (which can be many) or they want to cause strife by not seeking out answers for themselves and making a run with disinformation they have created in their head. It puzzles me....

I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people? This religion was directly involved in the killing and slandering of Pagans and Paganism. The Inquisition was feared because they would torture or kill any opposition to the Church. So much so that the famous prophet Nostradamus had to word his quatrains extremely carefully or face severe repercussion.

Back in those days...and the days of Jesus the control over beliefs was HIGH and one was scared to tell what they really believed. Christians follow Christ. They do not follow murderers nor do they think it is right to kill. Worry about your journey because that is the journey that matters most for YOU. Others believeing or not believing will always be....so allow it to be and do not worry yourself with others belief or non belief unless it is hurting you would be my advice.

My final question is probably the most important one. To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible. Let's look at a few verses:

This is the main reason why I feel as though you are trying to divide people here with false information. Have you not read the Bible? Had you read and understood or even studied it....you would no better than to say that. Christians only have to believe Jesus came, saw and kicked butt on the cross, my friend. This is what Makes a Christian. Belief and faith.

For the record, Jesus did not create Christianity, he was an Essene. He was cooler than a fan and it seems as though you do not know him. You don't have to be a Christian to know and believe in Christ. It could literally make such an impact that you would find yourself free of any burden. The choice is here....just as it was in Eden. Make yours. It is that simple

Originally posted by CaDreamer
i would like just one thing from Christians, please do provide an example of fulfilled biblical prophecy that has happened in the modern era of men. Not some story in a book with no way to verify its truth or veracity. lets limit it to lets say the last 100 years.

wont happen, the only "fulfilled prophecies" are in the book. so i claim that ALL biblical prophecies (that claim to be fulfilled) are false and are as provable as, the creation myth. (scientific genetic study has shown that man came from several unique groups and several unique gene pools.) the one man and woman birthing the entire human race bedtime story is ludicrous.

edit on 11-11-2011 by CaDreamer because: (no reason given)

In the Evolution of man maybe....just maybe..this is the era of faith we are living in, although it seems as if this era may be ending. Who knows... By faith alone one does not have to hold on to one story line as truth. A good investigator looks at all sources. The Bible never says we came from one woman and one man and there was no one else on Earth. Why get stuck on something like that when there is really no need?

Why would you want to limit it to only 100 years? Why not look at the whole and take the many prophecies that HAVE come true if you really want proof. Better yet why not list them all on a piece of paper, understand the meaning, and then decipher. Would a good investigator do that? I think so. There are MANY sites that claim they have the proof. Here is one to get you started.

www.amazingbible.org...

Anytime someone is talking to God, one may expect to see signs. Ask for these signs if your true intent is finding prophecies that have come to pass. You may be surprised at the magic the Universe can pull off with just YOU asking something with an intent of knowing and looking for the answer.

I'm not what you would call a die hard christian but I do have faith. I do find it strange that I never even heard of these missing books until a few years ago. I did research and found that the bible has been tampered with...its a tool to control the massesreply to post by Athin

Originally posted by Athin
I have a few questions for all you Christians out there.

The books in the Bible were written by various prophets, apostles and disciples yet the Bible itself was put together by a council of men. Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out?

You're confusing Christianity with religion. Christianity is not religion, it is belief in Christ. Religion is what brought us the Bible in its present form, not Christianity. Various religions have various forms of the Bible, they're not all the same. If Christ considered a religious Bible to be important to us, then why didn't He write anything down during His ministry?

Originally posted by Athin
The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it. The dead sea scrolls also make reference to it. Yet most of Christians have never even heard of this book. To those who have I'd like to know what you think about it.

I think it's as pertinent and important as any book in the "accepted" Bible. I've read it and it's fascinating. I haven't found anything in it that conflicts with the "accepted" Bible, so it's a mystery to me that they rejected it.

Originally posted by Athin
I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people?

Again, you're confusing religion with Christianity. Religion has brought much violence and evil upon the world, much of it in God's name. I can walk out on the street and kill someone right now and say I did it because God told me to and no one would believe me, I would be declared insane. We should likewise declare insane those throughout history who have attributed their evil deeds to God.

Originally posted by Athin
My final question is probably the most important one. To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible.

No you don't. You can believe in God and even Christ completely independently of the Bible. A "true" Christian follows their heart and makes ample use of their discernment, they're not steered by what men tell them.

I'm just going to answer the OP questions directly:

Are the right books in The Bible? Yes. www.angelfire.com...

Why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people? www.godandscience.org...

To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible. Yes. However, we sin by not doing so and we are forgiven for those sins by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He was the only one who could live those commandments, He paid the price for our sins, and He forgives us for not living them.

By the way, a simple search will help you find these answers. Try Google. With all the attacks on Christianity on ATS it seems like trolling.

Originally posted by Athin
I might respond to a few comments on here but I won't troll this thread. I am looking for insight into your minds and beliefs. Not looking to start a fight or to put anyone down. Thanks in advance for doing the same.

MOD note: Wasn't sure where to place this thread. Feel free to move it to whichever section is most relevant.

edit on 10-11-2011 by Athin because: (no reason given)

He's not downing anyone. His question's valid, and if your offended...toughen that skin boy!

Why do people get so defencive on this subject? He only stated facts and asked a question.

EGO!

One more day, one more post with the usual lies and misinformation. I wonder if you can support any of your lies with any form of evidence.

Originally posted by Athin
The books in the Bible were written by various prophets, apostles and disciples yet the Bible itself was put together by a council of men.

No, it wasn't. The Bible was put together using a criteria, that is; if the book could be demonstrated to be divinely inspired by someone with authority to do so.

Originally posted by Athin
Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out? The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it.

The book is Enoch has never been part of the Bible.

Originally posted by Athin
I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people?

Christianity has never led to the slaughter of millions of people. Even if you tally up the deaths of any war that could be barely related to Christianity, no matter how flimsy, you will not reach a tally of 'millions of people'.

Originally posted by Athin
This religion was directly involved in the killing and slandering of Pagans and Paganism. The Inquisition was feared because they would torture or kill any opposition to the Church.

The purpose of the Inquisition was to unmask false Christians. It had no authority over anyone that wasn't a confessed Christian.

Originally posted by Athin
To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible.

Despite atheists holding fast to this idea, this is not true. Christianity is defined as following the teachings of Christ, as detailed in the gospels, the apostolic letters, and in the example of the early Christians.

Do you have any real questions that are not propaganda and lies?

reply to post by troubleshooter


So the answer is no?

Originally posted by JunoTheGreat
Why do people get so defensive on this subject? He only stated facts and asked a question.

EGO!

There are no facts on his post. All of it is innacurate. Despite atheists love of such propaganda, and their widespread use of it, it is still false.

And ego is reality-testing, according to physicology. Don't you mean hubris?

Originally posted by randyvs



If I believe in what Christ did for me on Calvary does that meant I belong to a religion ? If I choose to believe in
an existence that is greater than our existence. And that existence is not only responsible for, but out right owns
all of existence as per any Creator creation relation. Who says that is a religion ? Does God have a religion ?
Religion is of man. Christ is of the Father.

Down to brass tacks, aren't you really just asking, how can someone believe in GOD when man is so messed up ?

edit on 11-11-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

No. Actually I'm writing a book and trying to see how other people view the topics. It's not the answers I'm really looking for... but how people react to the questions.

Originally posted by Athin
So the answer is no?

There is enough evidence to establish that a Jewish man of the name of Jesus, called Christ (annointed) by his followers, went around causing some disturbance during the first century, and was hanged for sedition, and that the events of his life caused the founding of the religion that we know today as Christianity.

Originally posted by Leahn
One more day, one more post with the usual lies and misinformation. I wonder if you can support any of your lies with any form of evidence.

Originally posted by Athin
Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out? The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it.

The book is Enoch has never been part of the Bible.

Originally posted by Athin
I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people?

Christianity has never led to the slaughter of millions of people. Even if you tally up the deaths of any war that could be barely related to Christianity, no matter how flimsy, you will not reach a tally of 'millions of people'.

Do you have any real questions that are not propaganda and lies?

Well, you can start by being honest...
1) Enoch is part of some Bibles in use today; and,
2) What do you call the crusades and the Conquistadors? How many people have died in our current Crusades carried out in the Middle East?

Originally posted by Jim Scott
I'm just going to answer the OP questions directly:

Are the right books in The Bible? Yes. www.angelfire.com...

Why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people? www.godandscience.org...

To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible. Yes. However, we sin by not doing so and we are forgiven for those sins by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He was the only one who could live those commandments, He paid the price for our sins, and He forgives us for not living them.

By the way, a simple search will help you find these answers. Try Google. With all the attacks on Christianity on ATS it seems like trolling.

You say the books are right just because someone used Angelfire to host their free website about canonicity? I can build a website saying there are whales living in the great lakes. It doesn't make it true.

I didn't 'attack' Christianity. I simply asked questions about it. I didn't flame your religion or flat out say that it's stupid. If you felt like it was trolling just for wanting answers then by that reasoning any curious mind is a troll.

Originally posted by Leahn
One more day, one more post with the usual lies and misinformation. I wonder if you can support any of your lies with any form of evidence.

Originally posted by Athin
The books in the Bible were written by various prophets, apostles and disciples yet the Bible itself was put together by a council of men.

No, it wasn't. The Bible was put together using a criteria, that is; if the book could be demonstrated to be divinely inspired by someone with authority to do so.

Originally posted by Athin
Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out? The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it.

The book is Enoch has never been part of the Bible.

Originally posted by Athin
I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people?

Christianity has never led to the slaughter of millions of people. Even if you tally up the deaths of any war that could be barely related to Christianity, no matter how flimsy, you will not reach a tally of 'millions of people'.

Originally posted by Athin
This religion was directly involved in the killing and slandering of Pagans and Paganism. The Inquisition was feared because they would torture or kill any opposition to the Church.

The purpose of the Inquisition was to unmask false Christians. It had no authority over anyone that wasn't a confessed Christian.

Originally posted by Athin
To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible.

Despite atheists holding fast to this idea, this is not true. Christianity is defined as following the teachings of Christ, as detailed in the gospels, the apostolic letters, and in the example of the early Christians.

Do you have any real questions that are not propaganda and lies?

If a group of people don't choose what is in the Bible then why are there so many different versions of it?

The book of Enoch was in the Bible and is STILL in the Bible in the Ethiopan version. When I am speaking of the Bible I am not just talking about the King James version. Please don't answer this question if you are ignorant of the facts.

Ok so it wasn't a million, but it was a very large number. The Inquisition and the Crusades together is enough to get my point across.

No one should have authority over anyone. The Inquisition however did murder people and 'teach people the right path' through violence. Please do you research on this group before making no sense on the subject.

The only one I will give you is the last question which people have enlightened me to earlier in this post.

Do you have any real answers that are based on something you actually know about? You are very badly misinformed in all of your answers except the last one. Please do a little digging before you decry my questions as 'lies and propaganda'. Thanks.