A few questions for Christians

Originally posted by Athin
I might respond to a few comments on here but I won't troll this thread. I am looking for insight into your minds and beliefs. Not looking to start a fight or to put anyone down. Thanks in advance for doing the same.

MOD note: Wasn't sure where to place this thread. Feel free to move it to whichever section is most relevant.

edit on 10-11-2011 by Athin because: (no reason given)

You've already trolled this thread with your opening post. You've done no background work at all if you believe what you wrote. First, learn how the New Testament relates to the Old. Stop pulling the same tired, old passages out of Leviticus that all uninformed trolls use to try to fail a point. Then learn that The Catholic Church has about as much to do with Christianity as al Qaida has with Islam. Learn your subject, then comment on it.

/TOA

reply to post by troubleshooter


I said 'the books in the Bible', so it's obvious I'm not referring to the Bible as a book. I'm very well aware that the book of Enoch is still in the Ethiopian collection as I stated that in a previous discussion with someone in this thread. What you are doing is just copy pasting wikipedia entries. I have read them as well.

My assumptions are not flawed as the question was 'why do you follow a religion'. It's quite apparent who I am directing my questions toward in my post. Since I am from Columbus, Ohio as my profile states of course I am talking to 'Western Christians'. Sorry if that wasn't obvious to you as it was to everyone else who is participating in this thread. I don't think I need to review what I know about Christianity since everything you have stated is something I already know.

Originally posted by jeichelberg
reply to post by Athin

 

If you have the read the Mahabharata, then you will see murder and mayhem there also...It is not realistic to think this type of behavior is related to one particular religion or sect or quilting party...

There is murder and mayhem in every religion and its in non-religious societies to. I was replying to someone, not saying it's solely in the Christian religion. My apologies if you misunderstood.

Originally posted by Athin
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I said 'the books in the Bible', so it's obvious I'm not referring to the Bible as a book. I'm very well aware that the book of Enoch is still in the Ethiopian collection as I stated that in a previous discussion with someone in this thread. What you are doing is just copy pasting wikipedia entries. I have read them as well.

I am a Christian and I did not refer to any source for my comments (another flawed assumption).

My assumptions are not flawed as the question was 'why do you follow a religion'. It's quite apparent who I am directing my questions toward in my post. Since I am from Columbus, Ohio as my profile states of course I am talking to 'Western Christians'. Sorry if that wasn't obvious to you as it was to everyone else who is participating in this thread. I don't think I need to review what I know about Christianity since everything you have stated is something I already know.

Christianity was not originally a religion but an event in history...
...Jesus is Christianity and He was opposed to religion...
...Christianity only became a religion with time.

I am a Christian and have studied its history for thirty years...
...but I do not own any part of that history...
...I am a Christian because of the person, death and resurrection of Jesus...
...the rest is about humans, power politics and money.

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by Athin
I might respond to a few comments on here but I won't troll this thread. I am looking for insight into your minds and beliefs. Not looking to start a fight or to put anyone down. Thanks in advance for doing the same.

MOD note: Wasn't sure where to place this thread. Feel free to move it to whichever section is most relevant.

edit on 10-11-2011 by Athin because: (no reason given)

You've already trolled this thread with your opening post. You've done no background work at all if you believe what you wrote. First, learn how the New Testament relates to the Old. Stop pulling the same tired, old passages out of Leviticus that all uninformed trolls use to try to fail a point. Then learn that The Catholic Church has about as much to do with Christianity as al Qaida has with Islam. Learn your subject, then comment on it.

/TOA

By 'troll' I meant bash someones beliefs in a manner that's disrespectful. Or assume that one is ignorant in the subject, as you're assuming I am. Like the text YOU quoted states, I'm trying to get insight into what some people are thinking. I have done background work not only in Christianity but many other religions. This is just a discussion forum, there is no need to think it's a personal attack on your religion. If you had actually followed this thread then you wouldn't be so ignorant to it. As for your 'learn your subject then comment on it' statement I would advise you to do the same.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Ok, then your comments, being word for word from other sources, is just a coincidence. I apologize for that.
You say 'Christianity only became a religion with time'. My question was and still is 'why do you follow a religion'. I am trying to get insight from people. Not flame their religion. From my side of the fence, going by your posts, you're trying to prove me wrong. What I don't understand is why... as there is nothing wrong to prove. I am simply asking questions.

reply to post by Athin

Religion is man made. By men who seek to control others thru dogma, threats, and reward. Spirituality on the other hand, is god reaching for us. Studying the bible is the milk of the word. The meat of the word is knowing how the people who wrote the bible found the wisdom to do that. Thats the trick. Not so much memorizing, figuring out, or reciting verses, but being a source of wisdom ourselves. Then that wisdom will show us the truth or lies of any story or lesson or manipulation. Knowing what is right to do in the moment. Living a blessed life and being an example to others. Written texts are less important then.

If I wanted to be an architect, then I goto school and read architecture 101. Then practice and be come an architect. Now I can write books on the subject. Now I become a teacher and show others what I have learned, not to keep them clinging to my doctrine, but to show them how to be independent and wise architects in their own right. To free them from their dependence on my teaching to do for themselves. Reading the same architect 101 and going to the same beginning classes over and over will get you nowhere but stagnant.

But for some reason, here in the western world we are happily stuck going to the same church service and hearing the same christian 101 over and over and over again.

reply to post by defcon5


Have you read the book of Enoch? If so, do you believe what is said in it? How do you feel about Erich Von Danikens book theorizing angels and demons really being good and evil aliens?(since he uses this book as proof)

Originally posted by Athin
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Ok, then your comments, being word for word from other sources, is just a coincidence. I apologize for that.
You say 'Christianity only became a religion with time'. My question was and still is 'why do you follow a religion'. I am trying to get insight from people. Not flame their religion. From my side of the fence, going by your posts, you're trying to prove me wrong. What I don't understand is why... as there is nothing wrong to prove. I am simply asking questions.

I am not religious, I identify with no group or denomination...
...I have not been in a church building (other than for a wedding of funeral) in thirty years...
...I do not have a creed or a list of propositional doctrines..
...so I do not 'follow a religion'.

I am a Christian because I believe/think Jesus was the Messiah (Christ)...
...that His death was the necessary precursor to going through death to new life.

To be a Christian is not to join a club but to confront this event in history...
...and as a result begin a dynamic relationship with the Spirit as the beginning of a new creation.

reply to post by troubleshooter


Other than the Bible is there definitive proof that Jesus ever existed?

Originally posted by Athin

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by Athin

 

Sounds like your quoting the qaran or however you spell it. Don't you get it dude thats how they believed back then that doesnt mean its right.

Which part sounds like I'm quoting anything?(Aside from the obvious quotes from the Bible)
By your logic... does that mean that what we believe right now will be wrong in the future?

edit on 10-11-2011 by Athin because: (no reason given)

I said that doesnt mean its right, I never said it wasnt either.

reply to post by Athin

Why do you follow a religion that basically says "all life is sacred unless that life doesn't believe in your God"?

Let's say you live in a neighborhood of friends who love each other and abide by the laws of the community. The laws are based on mutual respect and the well-being of the community. As the community grows, a group moves in and starts to pillage property, rape your daughters and steal from you when your backs are turned. What does the law abiding community do to the criminals?

To have a civilization, those who live by law and justice must be valued over those who do not. Respecting the dignity of others is not an option. It is a responsibility. We value this by our own actions when we see innocent life being taken or deprivation of rights creating inequity. God is a righteous judge.

The Bible is on three levels: Literal, Moral and Spiritual. Examining the Bible from a literal standpoint only gets to the most basic level of understanding. Apart from a moral understanding, there is no spiritual understanding. A person lacking a moral backing will only see a literal word from God. The same person lacking a moral backing will see the world as always being against them, never taking responsibility for any ill that happens to them.

A person with a moral backing will understand that life is built around choices. No matter what the circumstance, this type of person can see beyond the petty difficulties in life and rise above all challenges. This is called moral courage. In the face of tough decisions and difficult circumstances, they rise above any condition of life. This way of living develops a spiritual understanding and proper view of the world. This person transcends the self and realizes the larger picture that is being achieved by God within mankind.

I will simply answer this thread from my own spiritual understanding. Galatians 3 gives you the proper view.

23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The law can only produce judgment from works. We are incapable of works and the law was there to show us that pride leads to a law that can never be satisfied. The law was our guardian until we learn to love others as ourselves. Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand." Jesus said, "you must be born again." The fact is, we have traveled this wilderness often. Learning requires doing. We are not humans having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. The lesson to learn is love for others. God is one of the others to be loved. He is the primary one to love. Apart form loving others, we can never love God.

Now go back to my first paragraph. Those who love others and follow the law of loving others will reap the rewards of life. Those who trample on the law of love will be judged apart from the grace that God offers. Grace is unmerited favor for those who love God and others. If a person cannot abide in love, righteous judgment is all that is left.

reply to post by Athin

My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people?

All actions in life have reactions. There are laws that govern the universe. If a person drops an apple from their hand, the result is that the apple falls to the lowest spot and settle. If a person eats the apple, there is a reactions that happens apart form the person doing anything. The apple is digested, but the person does not make digestion happen. As a matter of fact, we do nothing apart from thinking and moving. The entirety of reality is produced around us, including our bodies, and we do none of it. We think and we move. That's it.

There are three causes of anything we can experience: Choice, providence or the actions of others. The actions of others also represent choice. We choose and all actions result in reaping what was sown. Others choose, and we can also reap what is sown. God chooses (providence) and we reap what is sown. God can give and God can rightly take. We can give, but taking is a forbidden action for us. We are only to give in love. God gives in love, but He can also take as a righteous judgment. We are the witnesses only on this earth and not the judge. When we make ourselves the judge, we are judged in the same measure back as we engage the laws of God by our choices. Choosing to give always ends in reward. Taking always leads to suffering.

Smoke and you get cancer. This is taking a reward. Taking leads to suffering. Suffer the work of an education and you get a degree. Suffering leads to reward.

The world is made of choices as we think and move. God provides the reality for this to happen so He is the righteous judge of the exercise.

Originally posted by Athin
I have a few questions for all you Christians out there.

The books in the Bible were written by various prophets, apostles and disciples yet the Bible itself was put together by a council of men. Why do you follow a book that was put together by men who decided what to put in and what to leave out? The specific book I'm talking about is the book of Enoch. Not only did it used to be in the Bible, other books in the Bible make reference to it. The dead sea scrolls also make reference to it. Yet most of Christians have never even heard of this book. To those who have I'd like to know what you think about it.

I regularly hear Christians say "all life is sacred", the majority of the time referring to abortion. My question is if you really believe this then why do you follow a religion that led to the slaughter of millions of people? This religion was directly involved in the killing and slandering of Pagans and Paganism. The Inquisition was feared because they would torture or kill any opposition to the Church. So much so that the famous prophet Nostradamus had to word his quatrains extremely carefully or face severe repercussion.

My final question is probably the most important one. To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible. Let's look at a few verses:

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).
People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

Why do you follow a religion that basically says "all life is sacred unless that life doesn't believe in your God"?

1.) If you want to know what the texts mean to scholars, go to... biblos.com...
type in your book, chapter, verse(s)
then click COMMENTS, after you have selected your particular section

2.) If you want a decent account of why the book of Enoch was left out of the canon... www.summascriptura.com...

3.) I'm no 'Christian', rather I take the texts for what they are, and you must first understand when they were written... we have evolved since then, in a progression of available materials and interactions with developed philosophies and understandings of the world that surrounds us. So yeah..... It's like asking how a person in the 1700's could own a slave, and think it's ethical or moral.... Different times...

4.) It's all dependent on what books you pay homage to....
Which is funny, because you picked verses from the very books that I do not care to read...

ESPECIALLY DEUTERONOMY, and I'm not alone on this one, even in the church friend...

personally, I feel that king Josiah was a bastard, which is funny because my Mason of a grandfather also agrees.

In the future, don't try and tell people what or what does not make a true Christian, because those who feel they are a true Christian, and at the same time fully understand the history of the texts... Many will tell you, that much of the Canon isn't necessarily to be taken literal(well duh), and that even some of the Canon is a farce and not the word of 'God'....

I mean cmon, even saying the word "Christian' or 'Christianity' is too generalizing,
en.wikipedia.org...
Go there, and check out the "Major Groupings within Christianity" section....
Then understand that there is much diversity amongst the divisions as far as doctrines and practices....

It's a waste of time to even truly address your question, because all you did was throw the word 'Christianity' out there, not even identifying a particular group... but maybe that's because you didn't know better, it's whatever..

It's kinda like saying that the Templars had the same understanding of the texts as the Miaphysites... or even Roman Catholicism as a whole...

yeah....

Originally posted by Athin
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

Other than the Bible is there definitive proof that Jesus ever existed?

I always have a giggle when people say this...
...the manuscripts that recorded the Jesus stories were put into the collection...
...precisely because they were the manuscripts that told the story...
...so all the manuscripts that prove there was a Jesus are included...
...except a few minor references by Roman/Jewish historians.

Historians generally agree that Jesus existed they just differ about who he was.

reply to post by Resinveins


It is becoming increasingly apparent to me that there are christians that try to live kind and virtuous lives and be as much like jesus christ as they believe him to have been, and people that call themselves christians but don't act very much like they ought to and consider the entire bible to actually be taken literally as opposed to allegory and ancient stories that may or may not be based in some truths.

It's all very difficult to keep up with.

Originally posted by Athin
My final question is probably the most important one. To be a 'true' Christian you have to follow every word in the Bible.

Wrong.