ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

I really just wanted to thank you for writing this thread. We needed someone who could address this thought from a mature perspective and clearly you know the trends considering you have been lurking for I think about 10 years you said.

My friends and I are out protesting, in fact, a good friend of mine, played a concert at Cezar Chavez park while protesters gathered for the occupy movement today.
mostly, all of us are students who work as servers and definetly are not scum like the media tries to portray the movement as.
We all work for a living, and provide for ourselves, not collecting unemployment like the majority of the rest of the state (CA)

so thanks again. well written well thought out.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

OK, I'm game to listen.

What ARE the solutions being floated by OWS?

Which particular problem being raised would you like a solution for? As has been laboriously pointed out by others, there's a lot of ground to cover.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Just as it's not your job to arrest and prosecute people for the criems you see, yes. The point of protest is to call attention to a problem.

To the obvious? Talk about ignorance. No, a movement is to offer solutions, voting Democrats is not a solution.

I don't think you grasp what "partisan" means. Nobody's out there stumping for Obama or rallying for Democratic party votes. yes, you'll find a lot of people out there who have, and will vote Democratic. As one of them, i'll tell you why.

Because that would be preaching to the choir.. but I have seen Democrats show up at OWS and as election time comes around I'd bet that it does become a political rally for Dems.

because Democrats offer a speedbump in the road to destruction the Republicans want to drive us down. it's not much of a speedbump, but 0.0001 is still larger than 0, isn't it?

Umm .. I feel the complete opposite, how about that.. after the Obamacare fiasco I will never cast a vote for a Democrat again.

The third parties are either jokes (I'm looking at you, Greens) or are worse than the republicans.

Ignorance.

the Democrats, in all their useless ineptitude, are, unfortunately the best we can hope for.

*vomits a little*

So your basic gripe is "I hate liberals?"

What's the likelihood myself and a Progressive would agree on enough to march in the streets? Not very good. I agree that there are major issues in society and government that needs fixing. I don't agree with the OWS sentiments however that we need a more powerful government, more taxation, and more handouts to the poor.

Do you feel that money should have a greater say in our political system than votes? yes or no?

I believe that corporations should not be allowed to donate, organize donations, or in anyway indirectly finance politics. I would actually say that the Government should have a strict amount that can be spent per politician, and 3rd party TV ads be banned, and that "pay per plate" fundraisers count towards the total maximum individual donation permissible by law. Which would effectively end them.

By all means. Ask them. Just be ready for the answer to be different than the one you've already concocted.

I've asked. I've had several conversations in the 5 times I've been down to the local Occupy protests. Not everyone there is an idiot, nor ultra Progressive, but most were. The camps to disgusting to go around at the moment so I have not been back.

I don't disagree with everything OWS does, for instance I'm even taking part in the Bank Transfer Day www.abovetopsecret.com... I simply disagree with the louder call for a more socialist approach to fix our issues. Because imo, corporatism and socialism are the root cause of our problems.

Originally posted by cloaked4u
OWS is about what the greed in this nation does to it's peoples. The signs are reminder of what has been wronged by greed. Greed is slowly taking a hold in this country and now it shows even more when an average joe smo cannot feed or take care of their family due to a list of problems with the system. I will name a few. Health care, rising costs of housing, buisness going over seas, gov't over spending, bailouts, cost of living keeps going up, wages go down or cannot keep up with the pace of, social security,corporate bank greed,higher taxes. The problem is that greed has infiltrated in so many places and leaves the average jo holding nothing to feed the family with. EXAMPLE: A single person who makes 13 an hour 40 hours a week is 520 before taxes. Ok, i will estimate after taxes. Minus 85 fed.,40 state=$395 a week after taxes times 4 weeks =$1580 minus bills. OK, a $850 month rent,a $65 phone bill,a $90 electric bill,a $50 a week gas car to go to work,$200 month food,car insurance $45 month, THIS leaves you with only $130 dollars left for the month and i am not done with the bills yet. The figures i used is from an apartment with an electric range since most apts. don't use gas here. OK, now what to do with the $130. I left that to the save portion or in case of emergency money to fix the car, health,or whatever bill comes my way that i figure that i may need. Like to buy cloths, oil for car,car repairs, t.v,computer,and all others that i did not list ALL THIS money comes out of this WOPPING $130. a month on $13 dollars an hour. I cannot see how a single parent with children can even make ends meet with this income, but that is what most buisnesses give as a wage to workers and if you there long enough you might be getting $15. AND if you just get hired, you can bet to start out between $9-13hr depending on your exsperience. WHAT A JOKE. Then they act like you family and 5 years down the road they lay you off and go overseas. WTF. And you and i are supposed to hold our heads up and soak it all in and do it all over again WHILE the greedy little pig gobbles up all your money and laughs in your face. I say yeah they getting fed up with the SH#. Every sign i see by OWS is a sign of where this greed had it's hand in and is getting worse by the minute. ALL THEY KNOW HOW to do is take and take and take and take. SICK. AND do they care about you, NO WAY. They want you to slave to make them more money. SICK. NOW they want even more money in taxes to pay for an escalation in the debt that they themselves made by poor management of finances to the country. WHAT A JOKE. Then laugh in our face and hand out bailout money to banks who just gave themselves raises. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. SO yeah, i believe that the infastructure here needs fixing and starting with the GREEDERS and cut them ALL off. I have no pitty for a man like mad off who MADE OFF with a whole bunch of stolen money. This is exactly this kind of activity that got us in trouble in the first place. All these greeders ruined america. They make up laws to protect themselves when they rob us blind. SICK. Then they put up a granite stone called the guidestones. Which blatently tells you what they are going to do to you. America is dead, lost, gone, no more.

so yeah, it needs definate repairs.

edit on 6-11-2011 by cloaked4u because: added a sentence.

I love america, but some people are in it for money and to ruin america, then go on to other countries to do the same. Those people are a VIRUS gone wild and are infecting america making it sick. What is wrong with voice your opinions about the problems at hand? Is this not how you get problems solved by putting out there all the problems, so HOPEFULLY they get looked into and fixed. IS THAT so bad?

reply to post by Frater210


So anyway Frater, Chomsky declares himself to be a Libertarian Socialist. Here is what wikipedia says

Libertarian socialism (sometimes called social anarchism,[1][2] and sometimes left libertarianism)[3][4] is a group of political philosophies that promote a non-hierarchical, non-bureaucratic, stateless society without private property in the means of production. Libertarian socialism is opposed to all coercive forms of social organization, and promotes free association in place of government and opposes what it sees as the coercive social relations of capitalism, such as wage labor.[5] The term libertarian socialism is used by some socialists to differentiate their philosophy from state socialism[6][7] or by some as a synonym for left anarchism.[1][2][8]

Adherents of libertarian socialism assert that a society based on freedom and equality can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[9] Libertarian socialism also constitutes a tendency of thought that promotes the identification, criticism, and practical dismantling of illegitimate authority in all aspects of life.

Political philosophies commonly described as libertarian socialist include most varieties of anarchism (especially anarchist communism, anarchist collectivism, anarcho-syndicalism,[12] mutualism[13]) as well as autonomism, communalism, participism, some versions of "utopian socialism[14] and individualist anarchism[15][16][17]., and also libertarian Marxist philosophies such as council communism and Luxemburgism.[18]

So basically, Chomsky is an anarchist style socialist who believes in the collectivist Utopia apparently minus the authoritarian rule normally associated with Totalitarianism.

I myself believe in limited govt, and free enterprise, and personal individuality. I believe we have to have certain laws which limit human behavior for the obvious benefits of controlling such bad behavior as murder and stealing.I believe in private property.
Even a libertarian style socialist seems to believe in collective property. I bet Chomsky is rich from selling his books though. Nothing like using free enterprise to push anarchist collectivism.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


So where were you when the Tea Party was at it's height and what have you been talking about the Tea Party and anyone who sees the OWS as what it is?.. You have been doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING... Actually worse since all you people do is claim the Tea PArty is bought off by corporations, and then give a LEFTIST op-ed from a LEFTIST newspaper, or a blog, as proof... Humm, maybe you are doing this because you are one of those LEFTIES?...

The Tea Party has gathered more people, and for the right reasons, than the OWS. The Leftwinger groups had to give free food to get more people together and make it look like everyone was in there for the LEFTIES' DREAM COME TRUE...

THere is ALWAYS going to be a divide when there are people who want to change the system, and the entire world to their leftist wetdreams meanwhile others want to keep their independence instead of wanting to be in another LEFTIST NIGHTMARE...

I apologize if this was addressed earlier in the thread but there are many posts and I couldn't read them all. what I would like to ask is why OWS isn't more supportive of Ron Paul? You could really send a message to both parties by voting for him in the primary and you could still vote for whoever you want in the general election. He seems to be in line with many of your ideas. If you aren't willing to do something like that, then you are just going to appear to be a bunch of camping democrats trying to rally your base. At least to me.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Wow. You are interesting enough for me to begin to really question what is up around here in exactly the way Fox suggests. I have not been around ATS long enough to really appreciate the difference but you are helping.

I don't think that you are really going to be able to define me so readily. I did not say that I thought that Chomsky was wise. And his being at the Zinn memorial at this time with that particular message is of historical significance, at least academically, regardless of what you or I think about it.

Please re read my post before you re-cock that mechanism in your knee.

I have never actually read that quote from Chomsky before, but I agree with it. You must have an agenda that is threatened by what Chomsky said otherwise you would not suspect him of an agenda. Of which he has none. People project all kinds of things on to Chomsky and others like him.

So....

You still did not answer my question...

If I am a leftist, anarchist, socialist; what are you then that stands in opposition to these things?

You seem to be able to identify these types pretty readily so I imagine you also have a well defined (i.e. rigid) idea of what you represent. I would like to know what it is.

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by elvaanseifer


She has derided, insulted, and only has bad words, which is the only thing she has, for Ron Paul or anyone who dares question her, or her groups intentions and goals...

Only a minority of the OWS would vote for Ron Paul because the mayority of the OWS camp is leftist.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

OK, I'm game to listen.

What ARE the solutions being floated by OWS?

Which particular problem being raised would you like a solution for? As has been laboriously pointed out by others, there's a lot of ground to cover.

edit on 6/11/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

Now THAT'S a fact, Fox! The lack of focus is nearly inpenetrable.

I'll tell you what. Nice guy that I am, I'll allow you to reach into the hat and pull out a problem to field a solution to. Then, if you can manage to get OWS to focus in that issue and the resultant solution, we might be able to get somewhere. That being the case, you might want to choose whichever problem OWS views as the most pressing one, but that's just a suggestion.

Otherwise, trying to bite off more problems than they can chew, OWS is, as my dear old dad would have described it, much like an old mad woman slinging crap around in a sock.

No focus, everyone notices it, but no one to takes it seriously - they just duck out of the way.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

OK, I'm game to listen.

What ARE the solutions being floated by OWS?

Which particular problem being raised would you like a solution for? As has been laboriously pointed out by others, there's a lot of ground to cover.

edit on 6/11/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)

I've been floating around this website for some time as well and im sure many people who pay attention to global affairs has noticed the trends and issues that have been raised to global awareness. Now that a movement is taking place on a global scale its mocked for having no direct purpose or solution or alternative available. though there is a lot of ground to cover there needs to be a foundation for the movement which appears to be lacking in solidarity of purpose. Though i know for change to occur i must continue to change myself though i would hope that people in the occupation are making pillars to a solution for a foundation. I like to think I try to stay current with OWS however i have not heard of any official pillars of solidarity that the 99 movement has demanded or conveyed for alternative solutions to the current system. I have heard of a declaration of new york of grievances as well as a demand for a robin hood tax in protests at the G20 however should there not be a more solid mainframe to this movement of fundamental suggestions for solutions? like you say there is a lot of ground to cover, should it not be organized? as a student of international affairs i can quote my professor for saying the UN is out of date and unrepresentational... not to say a NWO is needed but it really kinda is.... so what sort of solutions is the OWS and 99% suggesting?

ive heard OWS could be bankrolled by george soros though i would hope the 99% will be able to self organize a NWO with fundamental solutions and a mainframe to convey such a message that is created by a global 99% (100% if the 1 can come to terms) something like an international constitution with the premise of wikipedia and social media that would be transparent and not corrupted by !% if that is possible...

Tho i am curious to what OWS has been suggesting or come up with after this time... i hope it has not been infiltrated with global corporate interests.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

It's not the fact that there are protesters, l'il puddin', it's because their solutions are wrong.

I've been on line, writing in print, since 2003 as well. Started my rants against Bush.

While we all have a common problem, our ideas as to the solutions to these common problems are as different as Kim Kardashians husbands.

Focus on common solutions and you might find a consensus.

You keep saying the occupy movements are doing it wrong, but that you support their eventual goals? If you know what to do, and you actually do care, then why aren't you helping? If you do actually care.

Greed is whats the problem and it's getting worse. All the signs out there with the tea party and ows are simptoms of the GREED that is killing america.

Originally posted by elvaanseifer
I apologize if this was addressed earlier in the thread but there are many posts and I couldn't read them all. what I would like to ask is why OWS isn't more supportive of Ron Paul? You could really send a message to both parties by voting for him in the primary and you could still vote for whoever you want in the general election. He seems to be in line with many of your ideas. If you aren't willing to do something like that, then you are just going to appear to be a bunch of camping democrats trying to rally your base. At least to me.

You wont Get many from OWS to vote for Dr. Paul. He has been speaking out about corruption long before these OWS supporters even knew it was taking place. He had real answers long before a OWS "communal response" could even fathom asking questions hes answered 25 years ago.

Originally posted by cloaked4u

Originally posted by cloaked4u
OWS is about what the greed in this nation does to it's peoples. The signs are reminder of what has been wronged by greed. Greed is slowly taking a hold in this country and now it shows even more when an average joe smo cannot feed or take care of their family due to a list of problems with the system. I will name a few. Health care, rising costs of housing, buisness going over seas, gov't over spending, bailouts, cost of living keeps going up, wages go down or cannot keep up with the pace of, social security,corporate bank greed,higher taxes. The problem is that greed has infiltrated in so many places and leaves the average jo holding nothing to feed the family with. EXAMPLE: A single person who makes 13 an hour 40 hours a week is 520 before taxes. Ok, i will estimate after taxes. Minus 85 fed.,40 state=$395 a week after taxes times 4 weeks =$1580 minus bills. OK, a $850 month rent,a $65 phone bill,a $90 electric bill,a $50 a week gas car to go to work,$200 month food,car insurance $45 month, THIS leaves you with only $130 dollars left for the month and i am not done with the bills yet. The figures i used is from an apartment with an electric range since most apts. don't use gas here. OK, now what to do with the $130. I left that to the save portion or in case of emergency money to fix the car, health,or whatever bill comes my way that i figure that i may need. Like to buy cloths, oil for car,car repairs, t.v,computer,and all others that i did not list ALL THIS money comes out of this WOPPING $130. a month on $13 dollars an hour. I cannot see how a single parent with children can even make ends meet with this income, but that is what most buisnesses give as a wage to workers and if you there long enough you might be getting $15. AND if you just get hired, you can bet to start out between $9-13hr depending on your exsperience. WHAT A JOKE. Then they act like you family and 5 years down the road they lay you off and go overseas. WTF. And you and i are supposed to hold our heads up and soak it all in and do it all over again WHILE the greedy little pig gobbles up all your money and laughs in your face. I say yeah they getting fed up with the SH#. Every sign i see by OWS is a sign of where this greed had it's hand in and is getting worse by the minute. ALL THEY KNOW HOW to do is take and take and take and take. SICK. AND do they care about you, NO WAY. They want you to slave to make them more money. SICK. NOW they want even more money in taxes to pay for an escalation in the debt that they themselves made by poor management of finances to the country. WHAT A JOKE. Then laugh in our face and hand out bailout money to banks who just gave themselves raises. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. SO yeah, i believe that the infastructure here needs fixing and starting with the GREEDERS and cut them ALL off. I have no pitty for a man like mad off who MADE OFF with a whole bunch of stolen money. This is exactly this kind of activity that got us in trouble in the first place. All these greeders ruined america. They make up laws to protect themselves when they rob us blind. SICK. Then they put up a granite stone called the guidestones. Which blatently tells you what they are going to do to you. America is dead, lost, gone, no more.

so yeah, it needs definate repairs.

edit on 6-11-2011 by cloaked4u because: added a sentence.

I love america, but some people are in it for money and to ruin america, then go on to other countries to do the same. Those people are a VIRUS gone wild and are infecting america making it sick. What is wrong with voice your opinions about the problems at hand? Is this not how you get problems solved by putting out there all the problems, so HOPEFULLY they get looked into and fixed. IS THAT so bad?

GREED,GREED,GREED.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To the obvious? Talk about ignorance. No, a movement is to offer solutions, voting Democrats is not a solution.

You're right. it's not. Please stop pretending that anyone is claiming that it is.

Because that would be preaching to the choir.. but I have seen Democrats show up at OWS and as election time comes around I'd bet that it does become a political rally for Dems.

It might. However, there will be more work involved in such an attempt, than it was for the Republicans to re-enfold the tea party. All said and done, there weren't too many ideological differences between those two lovers. But OWS and the Democrats don't get such a cozy thing. The Democrats - despite the constant ululations of the Republicans - are not "liberals," and have not been for going on twenty years. They're certainly not "leftist." They're simply the branch of the republican party that doesn't want to sell off all public assets to China just yet.

Umm .. I feel the complete opposite, how about that.. after the Obamacare fiasco I will never cast a vote for a Democrat again.

So, what, are you planning on voting for the guys who made it more of a fiasco? or just the guys who will caucus with those guys?

Like I said. I don't hold the Democrats in high esteem. It's just that they serve a purpose similar to large roadkill.

Ignorance.

Unless the constitutionalists and Libertarians have radically altered themselves, I'm not sure... Did you have some other third party in mind?

*vomits a little*

I know, right? 2012's gonna have a lot of Democrats just holding htier noses and pulling whichever lever isn't adorned with Good Hair Perry.

What's the likelihood myself and a Progressive would agree on enough to march in the streets? Not very good. I agree that there are major issues in society and government that needs fixing. I don't agree with the OWS sentiments however that we need a more powerful government, more taxation, and more handouts to the poor.

So you agree that they need fixing, but you don't actually want them to be fixed fixed? You just want to pat your own back for being so wise as to know some fixing needs to be done. Well. That's... Nice?

You don't agree with "handouts to the poor." So you want to end WIC? Food stamps? medicaid? Abolish unemployment insurance? Throw away the Earned Income Tax Credit? Toss out TANF? Because basically, these positions amount to you saying "I want poor people to be even poorer, so we can shave 1% off the federal budget"

I honestly don't think you're manning the column that looks at impoverished mothers and tell them to let their kid starve. I don't think you believe that people on the street should be dying of preventable illnesses because they haven't got several grand for treatment. I would find it hard to believe that you honestly think that people who just got "downsized" should have to live off whatever htye scrape out of the couch. or that people stuck in paycheck-to-paycheck jobs shouldn't get a tax credit to ease the 1/3 of their check that gets bitten out (doesn't matter if you get it back in April; you need it now if your check only two hundred fifty bucks on it)

I believe that corporations should not be allowed to donate, organize donations, or in anyway indirectly finance politics. I would actually say that the Government should have a strict amount that can be spent per politician, and 3rd party TV ads be banned, and that "pay per plate" fundraisers count towards the total maximum individual donation permissible by law. Which would effectively end them.

As I said, Mi política es la política. See? We agree on more than you think.

Because imo, corporatism and socialism are the root cause of our problems.

We've only tried one of those, though.

reply to post by littled16


I have not read beyond this post but WAKE THE HELL UP PEOPLE!!!! You call yourself awake but look for a leader to make the "magic" happen? WTF? Let us swear to a new liege that will carry us along. BS! Clearly you are NOT a self determined sovereign being ready accept what is yours. It is indeed scary and liberating my friend. That is the spirit of the movement of the Occupy movement. It's breaking chains - PARADIGMS! You know the quote: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Any solution from the system that has produced this circumstance must be ERADICATED! ANARCHY is the birthright of all beings of the planet regardless of origin. ANARCHY not to be confused with nihilism. Screw patriotism, nationality, economy, politics, religion, race, creed, boarders, beliefs, blah, blah, blah... "I do without being commanded what others only do from fear of law." We are all by design or spontaneously HERE and we have a document already written describing so for most amended with adequate reason. We can do better. We can move beyond this document cherished by most, not upheld and protected appropriately by the federal and state level. AAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!! I AM A FREE NATURAL HUMAN BEING OF THE EARTH! I don't care if you're not from this Sapphire of the cosmos or some place else. You too are welcome too. COME ON! What is the threat of BEING?! Fear nothing my friends. The chains are gone, now it is up to the individual to Self actualize it.

reply to post by Frater210

Wow. You are interesting enough for me to begin to really question what is up around here in exactly the way Fox suggests. I have not been around ATS long enough to really appreciate the difference but you are helping.

Hmmm, my acquaintances in High school described me as different. But are you now calling me some sort of disinfo agent or a "hater" or dependent on controlled media or what? After all, there was a LOT of stuff in Fox's post. So, do I fit Fox's profile simply because I oppose the socialist agenda of OWS?

I don't think that you are really going to be able to define me so readily. I did not say that I thought that Chomsky was wise.

Yes, I will go back and reread your post. If I am mistaken I apologize.
Sure, I appreciate someone out of the box. Yah I did take a swipe at you for invoking Chomsky. I will take it back if you show me you are not those things....
You will not be able to peg me as one of those "extremist right wing Christian" types either, for one thing because I have been meditating and doing yoga since 1975, but have a love for Christianity. I pursued religion and metaphysics on my own, as my parents stopped church-going when I was aged 7.
I just don't happen to like any version of socialism, although I recognize that we currently have some socialist "safety nets" in place for those who fall through the cracks. But why would we want to have a permanent welfare class?

reply to post by nenothtu


yes yes, "There's no focus, there's no focus, there's no focus, there's no focus, there's no focus" - repeat the lie often enough, like a mantra, and... and... Nope, it still won't be true.

The focus is on a core of interrelated problems that stem from the common root cause - the corruption of our political system by the efforts of moneyed interests. Any one of these individual problems could be addressed on its own, sure. But that would leave the others swinging, wouldn't it? As I pointed out earlier in the thread, it's like demanding that the civil rights protests pick a topic and stick exclusively to that one: "Okay, we'll let you negros stay after sundown, but you still don't get to vote! And don't even think about ordering a sandwich!"

it's not "lack of focus," it's "a broad focus."

Now, the big one, getting monye out of politics. Perhaps you've not heard, but there's an effort to bring a constitutional amendment to debate:

"No person, corporation or business entity of any type, domestic or foreign, shall be allowed to contribute money, directly or indirectly, to any candidate for Federal office or to contribute money on behalf of or opposed to any type of campaign for Federal office. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, campaign contributions to candidates for Federal office shall not constitute speech of any kind as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution or any amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Congress shall set forth a federal holiday for the purposes of voting for candidates for Federal office."

Another draft version:

"No non-citizen shall contribute money, directly or indirectly, to any candidate for Federal office. United States citizens shall be free to contribute no more than the equivalent of $100 to any federal candidate during any election cycle. Notwithstanding the limits construed to be part of the First Amendment, Congress shall have the power to limit, but not ban, independent political expenditures, so long as such limits are content and viewpoint neutral. Congress shall set forth a federal holiday for the purposes of voting for candidates for Federal office."

There are other ideas falling short of an amendment; pressure to overturn the ruling of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad, the origin of the bizarre idea of "corporate personhood."

reply to post by AnotherSon

Let us swear to a new liege that will carry us along. BS! Clearly you are NOT a self determined sovereign being ready accept what is yours. It is indeed scary and liberating my friend. That is the spirit of the movement of the Occupy movement. It's breaking chains - PARADIGMS!

Did you mean they are breaking the paradigm of Capitalism? Because what they are really doing is invoking the OLD paradigm of Marxist Socialism.
I do like your poetic description of Terra as a sapphire though.