If Everybody Had a Gun.....

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
Then a holier then thou, pacifist who becomes a statistic

Even though you're 40 times more likely to become a ''statistic'' of a firearms murder in the US than you are in the UK ?

Either side of the gun arguement has belief on their side so as a discussion it's up there with religion and politics. I say do what you will, just try not to shoot anyone today ok

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
I can agree with this,it would not lower crime rates overnight,but over here in the uk where burglars could be wielding the very item you as a law abiding citizen in his/her own home cant posess then the situatuion is already favouring the intruder

LOL.

I know you're Scottish, but when have you ever heard of a burglar with a gun ?!

Maybe if they were robbing an £8m mansion, then they may take the risk, but the idea of a common or garden burglar having a gun when he burgles a house is utterly preposterous !

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


The "drunk dudes" changed the entire world for at least 3 centuries, so I think their words carry a little weight.

But this

Look, with a gun, anyone can pull the trigger and kill someone who is standing 50 yards away. Whereas a knife or bat attack requires the attacker to actually physically assault their victim, therefore requiring a certain type of person to actually be able to inflict close-range, physical harm on someone else.

I can entirely agree with. Using a gun is a simpler, less personal way to commit a murder, and thus it allows more cowards to murder. In that way, I can agree that using a gun can contribute to an increase in murders. I would hope this would be offset by the number of people using guns to prevent crimes, and deterrent of knowing that some people have guns, but that would be impossible to measure.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
I can agree with this,it would not lower crime rates overnight,but over here in the uk where burglars could be wielding the very item you as a law abiding citizen in his/her own home cant posess then the situatuion is already favouring the intruder

LOL.

I know you're Scottish, but when have you ever heard of a burglar with a gun ?!

Maybe if they were robbing an £8m mansion, then they may take the risk, but the idea of a common or garden burglar having a gun when he burgles a house is utterly preposterous !

Uncommon yes!,however with the availability of guns in the uk getting easier if you have the right contacts,then will it be long before there is a spate of armed burglaries showing up with firearms as the buglars weapon,and regardless of whether the burglar is armed with a gun,knife,or crowbar wouldnt you like to be on an equal if not higher position to control how the situation goes down??

reply to post by ScottishBiker420


In the UK you're meant to get an automatic 5 year jail sentence for carrying a gun, whereas if you're arrested for burglary, you'll probably only get a suspended sentence or a year or two max. The slightly intelligent criminals weigh up things like that. Most gun crime is the gang/drug crowd in the UK and they're mostly shooting each other.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


Good point,say the burglar was a junkie desperate for a fix,he/she breaks into your home wnd pulls out a dirty needle(has happened in this country numerous times),so therefore the only way to disarm him without some form of ballistic weapon is to engage in a melee,with the most likely outcome being the victim being stabbed withthe dirty needle,now you point a gun at the burglar he/she now has to make a choice,you are then in a more advantageous position than the burglar,no?

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
Uncommon yes!,however with the availability of guns in the uk getting easier if you have the right contacts,then will it be long before there is a spate of armed burglaries showing up with firearms as the buglars weapon,and regardless of whether the burglar is armed with a gun,knife,or crowbar wouldnt you like to be on an equal if not higher position to control how the situation goes down??

Are guns really getting any easier to acquire in Britain ?

No burglar would carry a gun whilst conducting their illegal activities, unless the potential proceeds of their raid would override the risk of being caught.

The fact of the matter is that, if caught, you're going to get a considerably longer sentence for possessing an illegal firearm than you are for the burglary itself.

Using the firearm to threaten the householder would see the burglar receiving an even stiffer sentence.

Yes, in a million to one chance that someone, armed with a handgun, breaks into my house and threatens me, then, of course, I'd prefer to have a gun in my possession to defend myself.

However, the statistical odds of that happening are so unlikely that I wouldn't even consider it a reasonable basis to alter my broader views on this subject.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
Uncommon yes!,however with the availability of guns in the uk getting easier if you have the right contacts,then will it be long before there is a spate of armed burglaries showing up with firearms as the buglars weapon,and regardless of whether the burglar is armed with a gun,knife,or crowbar wouldnt you like to be on an equal if not higher position to control how the situation goes down??

Are guns really getting any easier to acquire in Britain ?

No burglar would carry a gun whilst conducting their illegal activities, unless the potential proceeds of their raid would override the risk of being caught.

The fact of the matter is that, if caught, you're going to get a considerably longer sentence for possessing an illegal firearm than you are for the burglary itself.

Using the firearm to threaten the householder would see the burglar receiving an even stiffer sentence.

Yes, in a million to one chance that someone, armed with a handgun, breaks into my house and threatens me, then, of course, I'd prefer to have a gun in my possession to defend myself.

However, the statistical odds of that happening are so unlikely that I wouldn't even consider it a reasonable basis to alter my broader views on this subject.

Im not saying every burglr in britain packs heat,but what if the hosehold contains goods which did outweigh getting caught and the owner of such household was me,you or anyone else on thsi thread,il struggle to find anyone who would object to having a gun for protection in that situation IMO

reply to post by ScottishBiker420


True it would be better to be armed in that incidence but in my case he'd have to get past two staffordshire bull terriers and myself armed with a baseball bat, the girlfriends pretty nasty too, but don't tell her i said that


Oh forgot to add, the more firearms in homes, then the more firearms there are for burglars to steal. There's no right or wrong answer to this question to be applied to all countires in the world as the situation is different in each country. If i lived in Southern africa for example i wouldn't leave home without my kevlar and a machine gun or two. In the UK i feel safe nearly all of the time. I may be delusional

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
Making guns illegal has never forced criminals to turn in their guns. It probably wouldn't change the rate of crime, but if it comes down to it, I'd rather be armed than not armed. I know it's cliche, but I own a fire extinguisher. I don't ever want to use it, but if my house is ever on fire, I'll be better off with it than without it. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only moments away. They're really good at drawing chalk outlines.

This photo pretty much sums it up for me...

if everyone had guns/sense, we'd know to think before acting stupid.

HERE,HERE!

you piqued my interest when you mentioned your Fire extinguisher.....It reminds me of what happened last year involving me and my neighbors house...i've lived in the same home for 9yrs, and almost always have my safety stuffs (weapons included lol) nearby...anyway....last summer after 11pm, i was sitting on the rear deck and hearing what i thought as first, was water dropping for a height, only to notice a glowing light coming from somewhere towards the front of the house...i stand up, walk around and see my neighbors house on fire. thanks to trying to be prepared for whatever, mundane to insane, i ran into the house, yelled @ the wife to call 911 and grabbed the 2 extinguishers from the house and across the street i went. I beat on their front door with 2 thunderous booms after jumping over the fire, then jumped back off and went to work on the fire, which was eating the front porch/section of the garage siding.

less than 2 min later, the fire was out when the neighbors walked out bewildered and still sleepy, then panicked when i told them their porch/bushes/garage were on fire..the FD pulled up seconds later to investigate, and found out that the last person to go inside, left a lit cigarette on the porch that rolled off and onto the dry pine straw below deck. we all live in wood sided homes, and it hit me, that if i didnt think of the "what ifs" before, i may have attended a mass funeral the week later. instead, the neighbors and I, helped rebuild/replace porch and siding/trim.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

 

Oh come on. If a person is a criminal and or wants to behave lawlessly they will use a piece of wood or pipe or a rock to do their evil deeds. Some have used jet airliners. Are we supposed to stop flying too ??

Obviously not - we should give everyone the ability to kill over 3500 people in one fell swoop!



That assault rifle image is just sad imo, despite my agreeing with citizens gun rights, just so much to go wrong in my mind. But then we do live in the 'if I'm scared and it moves - KILL IT NAO!!!'...

To sum it up for myself i beleive the gun is a tool,no more dangerous than a hammer,crowbar,bat etc....it depends on who's hands it is in,there isnt a right or wrong in my eyes

I think people forget some type of scientific logic and historic facts when talking about guns, "because they kill people."

We are animals. It is only through society and our intelligence that we have matured past the animalistic instincts to some degree. In some cases we are worse than animals because we kill for no reasons. We kill for sport. We kill other animals for no reason other than our own consumption and greed. It's not the guns that kill, it's society. Guns are just the most efficient way to kill people and animals. Guns, are the pinnacle of human success actually. From the crude weapons that we used to kill other tribes, to bows and arrows, to swords and finally guns. We have perfected the art of killing.

I say why not? Guns will never be illegal in this country. Guns rights will never be illegal period! No one judge, court, or President will ever get rid of the second amendment for they will be hated more than GWB and Obama combined!

Just look what happened during prohibition of alcohol. People still wanted to drink and they did whatever they could do get their hands on it. If you made guns illegal who knows what type of gangs/mobs would pop up? They will likely be MORE powerful than Al Capone ever dreamed of being. Because the citizens wouldn't have a right to defend themselves from these gangs.

Most if not all crimes are done using illegal guns. In fact, most people who commit crimes with guns hide them. So while I do see why you would not want to see someone carrying around a gun in public in a fancy case, it's not like they are going to start killing people for no reason. When has that happened?

Let's take the UK for example, they are always bragging about how government took away their guns and now their society is better off for it. But.... I think that the UK is a lot more mature mentally and racially than here in the US. UK had a low amount of people owning guns anyway and in the 1800s guns in the UK were seen as a form of elite upper class. However, here in the US during the 1800s we had the cowboys and Manifest destiny. And guns/gun making was one of the top industries in the country, due to our wars with the native americans and w/e. You could say, it's sort of in our blood to want to have that right, and some ppl down in the midwest still live the cowboy lifestyle.

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
Im not saying every burglr in britain packs heat,but what if the hosehold contains goods which did outweigh getting caught and the owner of such household was me,you or anyone else on thsi thread,il struggle to find anyone who would object to having a gun for protection in that situation IMO

I'm not quite sure that any British burglar packs heat.

Seriously though, it would have to be a planned and targeted burglary for the perpetrators to risk carrying firearms in the operation. They would be gambling a potential 5-10 year jail sentence for the contents of the home which they were burgling.

The houses whose contents are worth the risk of a 5-10 prison sentence will be houses where the inhabitants are more than likely legal gun owners, anyway.

This is an interesting question that you have asked yourself.

Obviously nobody can predict what the outcome of the "experiment" would be but I can only offer my thoughts.

Being a 45 year old man who has been around firearms all my life, actively shooting them since I was 9 years old, hunting since I was 12 years old and carrying a legal concealed weapon for 19 years I am obviously pro-gun.

Issuing EVERYONE a firearm when they are born is ok with me except you have to educate them from adolescence and once they are of legal age (because there are legal ramifications of using a weapon) they may start carrying it.

I realize you do not have much if any experience in firearms and most likely have never been around people who do. There are actually places in the American west where almost everybody does own and carry a weapon daily or at least have one within reach. People do not form "roving gangs" and commit crimes and the actual crime rate is EXTREMELY low. Compare the crime in New York with the crime rate in Wyoming (per capita)

People site road rage as examples of how badly and irrational humans act. Remember that for every road rage guy on the highway there are also a million others who have a level head. He is the exception not the rule.

As many crazy, sick people we hear about in the news out there on a daily basis they are still a VERY, VERY, VERY small minority. I still believe that the vast majority of people are good.

In my opinion the crazy ones would be weeded out fairly quickly under your scenario.

Dear Op... your suppostion of being given a gun at birth and taught how to use it, and everyone having a gun...

That my friend describes the county I live in here in rural North Carolina. Almost everyone has a gun of some sort.. and most have multiple guns...hunting rifles, assault rifles, hand guns, shot guns... guns of all types. In fact, statistically, there are more guns in my county than there are people.

Based on these facts, according to some peoples anti-gun argument... my county should be a death zone...full of mayhem and murder.

Fact is...it is as peaceful a place to live as you ever saw. We don't even lock our doors at night, nor when we go to work...really. The last murder here in my county was a domestic dispute and a conspiratorial murder by a cheating spouse... and it wasn't even a shooting. Every so often there is a random shooting by a drug deal gone bad... but even that is rare and done by someone from up north that was running drugs down I-85.

In fact, it is almost a rite of passage for a young boy to get his first gun...usually a BB gun about 8, a small .22 at 10 or 12...moves up to a shotgun about 14 or 15 and then a real gun at 16...maybe a .30-06 hunting rifle or a lever action .30-30 Winchester.

Hunting and guns are as intertwined here as church and Sunday dinner... this time of year on a Saturday morning, you will see boys of 12 carrying shotguns out hunting and running dogs with their daddy and grand daddy or uncles... and it crosses all colors and races too. It might suprise some that you even see blacks and whites ... all in camo ...carrying guns...out hunting or target shooting and having a good time... later there will be deer stew...or roasted venison.... or brunswick stew with squirrel and venison.

Nope...guns make my county a safer place. Everybody kbnows better than to go snooping around someones property...especially after dark... because in the country, no one can hear you scream.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

I'm not quite sure that any British burglar packs heat. Seriously though, it would have to be a planned and targeted burglary for the perpetrators to risk carrying firearms in the operation. They would be gambling a potential 5-10 year jail sentence for the contents of the home which they were burgling.

Yes, no burglar in the UK packs heat........

And us gun toten , stupid , fear mongering Americans are suppose to be the ignorant ones here?

Where is your head at man?

And whats with this last sentence about them having to worry about a 5-10? THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW, do you really think you should underestimate the fact that they could be carrying a gun?

Good god and people wonder why some become victims.........

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


I think the "seriously though" bit should have tipped you off to the poster not taking his view point seriously. just saying.

There were 645 cases of burglary involving firearms in the uk with a total of 4,120 robberies involving firearms ( many would have been replicas as they're recorded as the same) year ending April 2006

source Independant

Now i wonder what the US statistics are.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
The "drunk dudes" changed the entire world for at least 3 centuries, so I think their words carry a little weight.

Their words carry little weight. The only reason they were influential is because the US was - and is - filled with people who have a slavish devotion to a piece of paper which was written by a motley bunch of reprobates.

Yes, you're right, their words, tangentially, have changed the world, but that's nothing to be proud of. The fact that Americans slavishly and unquestioningly use the Constitution as the axiom of their philosophical and patriotic thoughts, should be something to be ashamed of.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I can entirely agree with. Using a gun is a simpler, less personal way to commit a murder, and thus it allows more cowards to murder. In that way, I can agree that using a gun can contribute to an increase in murders. I would hope this would be offset by the number of people using guns to prevent crimes, and deterrent of knowing that some people have guns, but that would be impossible to measure.

The easy and cowardly nature of using a gun is one of the main reasons why I'm strongly against them.

I don't think that a populace possessing a gun will offset the crazies who pull the trigger. In fact, I think that it only makes it worse.