If Everybody Had a Gun.....

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
LOL no its an opinion you have that has absolutely no basis in fact.........

It has plenty of basis in fact. The average pro-gun American is a hoplophile who doesn't look at a gun as anything more than an extension of his own impotent and frustrated sexuality.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
Apparently you are so ANTI gun that youll use your own bias to label a group as a whole......

How can one not be biased against these gun-supporting, primitive, backwardass hillbillies who still make up a worrying large proportion of the US population in the 21st century ?! These types should have died out at the same time as the last slaves that they were forced to free.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMaskYou should be ashamed

The only people who should be ashamed of themselves are those Americans who are so cowardly that they are willing to let the tragedies of gun crimes in their nation carry on, just to satisfy their need to quiveringly grasp a pistol or rifle, while cowering behind a curtain and thinking ''they are all out to get me''. Freaks.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


And yet Crimes per capita is higher in the UK than it is in the US. Proof that if you take away guns, crime actually increases. Sure, they don't use guns as their weapon, but they use other things and they do it more often.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by ScottishBiker420
i think owing to the amount of gun crime in britain

Britain has one of the lowest gun-crime rates in the world.

Yes compared to other countries but anyone in the UK can tell you gun crime seems to be everywhere now compared to say10-20 years ago,whether its gangs in south london conducting shoot-outs in the streets,or armed robberies on local businesses up and down the country it is far more frequent in the past few years

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Just to give a likely scenario: you are walking alone on a street, and a couple of guys come up to you and ask you for the time. Before you can say ''10 past 11'' then you feel a gun pointing against the back of your head and voices shouting ''put your hands in the air'', while the two men who originally approached you point guns towards you at point-blank range.

Do you pull your little gun practice session manoeuvre ? Er... no.

Well, first, I have to point out that one product of the CCW training and further firearm defense training is a developed sense of situational awareness that ought to prevent that scenario from happening in the first place. A lot of people misunderstand what the training is about and assume it's simply teaching how to shoot someone. Actually, the majority of training in both state required classes and the further training I enrolled in was focused as much on avoidance and deescalation as how to effectively defend myself if all of that fails.

In your specific scenario, if I am just having a day full of 'head up tail' syndrome..and it happens to us all..which allows someone to get right up into my personal space from behind me, then it depends on one thing as to how I react. Am I alone, or am I with my Wife and Child? If I am alone, I'll let this play out and see if losing a wallet can see the situation deescalate. When it comes down to it...there is nothing in my wallet worth killing or dying for, and you have the bad guy clearly having the drop on me.

If my family is with me, that whole equation changes radically. Part of the training I went through was disarming and methods of physically getting distance to draw and fire. Those were parts of the training I learned and did very well with. I believe I could manage it if in real life. I also pray fervently I never feel so cornered and forced that I have to try. By that point in time, with my son at my side in particular, one of us isn't going to survive this encounter, between the bad guy and myself. I will NOT be disarmed with my family there....because it's quite likely we all die and they'd never be kind enough to kill me first...naww...I'd have to watch my failure before I went down. Life just seems to be that way....so I'll go down fighting, thank you.

and....to repeat because it's worth saying twice...a whole LOT of things had to go terribly wrong to ever be there in the first place and I pray..literally..that never comes to pass in my life. Also, part of the training, depending on how one views things.

The age-old argument of "If everyone possessed a gun, society's crime rate would diminish."
This is a fallacy. The survival rate of both criminals and victims would change dramatically, but it wouldn’t drastically reduce crime. Desperation is desperation, and is the number one motivation for most crimes (whether that desperation is founded or internal), and the presence of a firearm isn’t going to sway someone from doing what they believe they need to do. All it would do is level the playing field a bit.

However, while universal gun ownership would not lower crime, one thing it would accomplish, and likely the best reason for advocating worldwide gun ownership is, it will keep Governments in check. This is the reason our 2nd Amendment was created. Not to reduce crime, but to reduce political ambition.

~FugitiveSoul

Originally posted by Deafseeingeyedog
You're just upset that we used them to win our independence and now you cant have them.

LOL. You're welcome to your independence. I think that we're well shot of you.

I can own a gun if I want to. I don't, though, because I'm a not a wussy, and - equally as pertinently - I have absolutely no need to possess one.

Originally posted by Deafseeingeyedog
The point is that the criminal is not going to go after someone if they think they can defend themselves. They will go for the weak and helpless. with concealed carry permits, granny could be packin heat and you wouldnt know.

The point is that if everyone had a gun, then the criminal would change their modus operandi. Once again, to reiterate, you wouldn't know that you were being mugged until you had a gun shoved against your head.

The criminal would operate on the basis that their victim was armed, therefore they would easily find a way to neutralise the threat. Gun-toting flash-mobs would be the norm, and criminal gangs would always outnumber their targets, to prevent any ''John Wayne'' antics from the victims.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


A "gun" is a tool, nothing more, just like a hammer. With my rifle I can feed my family, with my handguns I can protect my family. If you were to suddenly take all of the guns out of the world, do you think that would change the hearts of men? Would they suddenly become peaceful, kind, and courteous? I doubt it very seriously.

If guns were to disappear tomorrow, those with the desire to rob, steal, and harm other humans would simply use a knife, a rock, or their bare hands to do the deed.

I think if everyone was properly trained and permitted to carry a weapon (exceptions for the mentally ill and criminals) life might just be more peaceful. Those of ill will would never know if the little old lady they are about to rob is packing a .38 snub nose in her purse, right next to the tissue and candies; so deterrent does plays a role. And eventually, those who would make a living by harming other might just become extinct - thanks to granny and her "Life Savers."

When will people ever understand? Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
And yet Crimes per capita is higher in the UK than it is in the US.

Googling ''crime rate per nation'' and picking out the first site which come to hand is hardly the basis to form a strong argument upon.

Once again, comparing crime rates between different jurisdictions is a ridiculous, futile and inaccurate exercise:

1. What constitutes a crime varies between countries.

2. The severity of different crimes within the national culture and psyche varies between countries.

3. The way that crimes are reported differ between countries - often depending on the levels of victim support and confidence in the police service - which are both generally higher in the UK, and other more advanced Western and Northern European countries, than they are in the US.

4. The way that crime figures are recorded and collated differs between countries.

5. Pulling some results out of a google search and comparing vastly differing datasets because you managed to find a site which backed up your already pre-held views, is a very poor show.

6. Please tell me why you were so convinced that ''nationmaster'' was the most objectively accurate site to garner these statistics from ?

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Proof that if you take away guns, crime actually increases.

Where's the ''proof'' in your bizarre assertion ?

Seriously, can you actually back up your ridiculous statement ?

reply to post by getreadyalready


You've got to agree though that we have a vastly lower death rate - and being alive is what counts isn't it?

Also there may be statistical variance due to virtually every crime from having your milk bottles stolen to mass murder is reported in the UK so those figures on nationmaster.com may be misleasing


According to that website theres 183,419 per 100,000 people drug offenses, is that credible ?

Check your sources friend.

Mother fires gun to protect 5 kids
topsecret

Please read this thread, its short and quick. You will not have to spend along time reading it.

Please stop pretending that the only senario is the one you present. You asked if the world would be a better place.
My previous post here suggested you replay your own countries' history. USA "learned" from England and brought the traditions here and added new ones. One tradition is firearms for protection and food. Others posted here reminding you of history also. Still others here have explained themselves and different situations.
However, you persist in using only one. One situation.

This link provided explains another situation. One based on real life and not a theory.
So if the OP does not want to accept history or real life, then, being a Proud American....
Fine, do what you wish. No skin off my nose and none of my business. I will not try to convince you of anything.
I am fine with letting you do want ever you wish.

But .... starting a thread with only a pretention of wanting a 'discussion'... well that is just rude.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone

That's a decimal, not a comma.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Actually the Murder per Capita is very close from Nation to Nation, I've posted it in another thread, but I couldn't readily find it just now.

My City just voted Most Dangerous, but it was also voted Most Livable in the same year!

This source breaks down the comparison between US and UK by more localized statistics.

But, the point was getting rid of guns does not get rid of crime. Also getting more guns does not get rid of crime. Crime is more of an economic and education based statistic than a gun statistic. That is exactly the reason the anti-gun debate is so idiotic.

reply to post by getreadyalready


That's curious - i just cut and pasted from the website so the info was as i saw it. Go back and check the website - you'll see i'm not lying. Anyways i used to own a gun - i loved it until i handed it back to the police There's a whole conspiracy story involved there which is highly amusing.

Ultimatly i think guns are like cigarettes, the're bad but they're kind of addictive. We know they're bad but that doesn't stop people using. If i lived in the US i'd have a gun if i was allowed but in the UK it's just not needed.

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
Also there may be statistical variance due to virtually every crime from having your milk bottles stolen to mass murder is reported in the UK so those figures on nationmaster.com may be misleasing

According to that website theres 183,419 per 100,000 people drug offenses, is that credible ?

Check your sources friend.

It just shows how some people will use the internet to find anything which will back up their pre-conceived views, rather than utilising it as a resource to broaden their knowledge.

Hilariously, the crime-rates on nationmaster.com allegedly show Finland as having the 3rd highest crime-rate per capita in the world ! Harf ! Harf !

Funnier still, Finland, after Switzerland, probably has the highest rate of gun ownership in Europe !

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
The age-old argument of "If everyone possessed a gun, society's crime rate would diminish."
This is a fallacy. The survival rate of both criminals and victims would change dramatically, but it wouldn’t drastically reduce crime. Desperation is desperation, and is the number one motivation for most crimes (whether that desperation is founded or internal), and the presence of a firearm isn’t going to sway someone from doing what they believe they need to do. All it would do is level the playing field a bit.

However, while universal gun ownership would not lower crime, one thing it would accomplish, and likely the best reason for advocating worldwide gun ownership is, it will keep Governments in check. This is the reason our 2nd Amendment was created. Not to reduce crime, but to reduce political ambition.

~FugitiveSoul

I can agree with this,it would not lower crime rates overnight,but over here in the uk where burglars could be wielding the very item you as a law abiding citizen in his/her own home cant posess then the situatuion is already favouring the intruder,all it takes in the uk is a few high profile deaths of would be thieves as a good detterant to most of these pond life scumbags

edit on 18-10-2011 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Indeed - i expect the website creator may have an agenda, I'm just guessing though.

Guns are like a religion it seems ! Though if i lived in a country where everyone else was packing, i'd be carrying too, you can't blame the Americans for having that outlook.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


It would be helpful to review crime statistics in states (US) that have a variety of gun laws. There are states that allow Open Carry versus Concealed Carry. I'd be interested in reviewing states that allow Open Carry and then review crime statistics, specifically violent crime, etc. Personally, if I lived in an Open Carry state, I wouldn't mess with anyone. Then again, I'm not a dumb criminal. Personally I live in NY. I have a concealed carry permit. I carry everywhere I go.

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by Sherlock Holmes

 

Indeed - i expect the website creator may have an agenda, I'm just guessing though.

Guns are like a religion it seems ! Though if i lived in a country where everyone else was packing, i'd be carrying too, you can't blame the Americans for having that outlook.

Id def rather be the crazy gun hugging nut, with the means to defend himself.....

Then a holier then thou, pacifist who becomes a statistic

Originally posted by nh_ee


We learned what a gun obsessed society was like in the Wild Wild West....and hence as to the name.

Guns don't necessarily kill people, but stupid people do...

Yes they do! lol..and unfortunately stupid people find all sorts of ways to kill themselves and others. I am employed as a medevac flight nurse/paramedic and ripping people back from the depths of stupidity is a full time job. People are way more dangerous behind the wheel of a car than they are with firearms. I continue to be amazed at all the improved and creative ways people find to hurt and kill themselves! Job security I guess.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


You haven't considered a variable: In such a society where guns were issued as a birth-right and one is taught from a very early age how to handle, respect and use a gun appropriately -- there would have to be a crime rate so low that arming the general populous wouldn't increase crime/death. That means it's subject to the terms of legislation that would allow all the public to have guns. This means that arming the citizens as a birth-right wouldn't really change much except allow the opportunity to protect ones self and family in an emergency.

It's also my firm belief that if people were trained from an early age how to properly handle a gun, use it defensively and only defensively, and respect it -- that is to say, be aware of the outcomes of it's use and accept responsibility -- society would be much safer.

Would you really mug somebody knowing that every man/woman down the street, even on the side of an ally, is also packing and could destroy you for harming a fellow citizen?

Giving everyone a gun now would be a dangerous proposition with horrible outcomes.

Why not make military service mandatory? That will instill self-dignity, courage among other ethical traits into persons as well as train them military with weapons and when to use, how to use, handle appropriately, and defensive use.

Maybe not mandatory military service, but like a mandatory boot-camp environment for a few years? A few years in the big scheme of things is nothing and could promote so many benefits..

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Actually the Murder per Capita is very close from Nation to Nation, I've posted it in another thread, but I couldn't readily find it just now.

Murder rate per capita is a much more comparable statistic, as, firstly, the definition of murder is quite similar between legal jurisdictions, and secondly, the crime doesn't need to be reported to be recorded, investigated and processed by police.

You're way off the mark if you think that the murder rate between the US and UK is ''very close''. There are about 700 murders per year in the UK, and 14,000 in the US. Even factoring in the differences in population, then you're still 4 times as likely to get murdered in the USA than you are in Britain.

That source you posted was from 2005. The murder rate in the UK that year included the 52 people who died in the 7th July bombings, thus falsely exaggerating the figures.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
But, the point was getting rid of guns does not get rid of crime.

I don't think that anybody even suggested that getting rid of guns would get rid of crime. Crime existed long before firearms existed, and crime will always continue.

Getting rid of guns, however, does limit senseless deaths caused by people who get the red mist coming down, people ''losing the plot'' and cowards who can pull the trigger and remotely shoot someone from an impersonal distance.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Crime is more of an economic and education based statistic than a gun statistic.

Says who ?

Look, with a gun, anyone can pull the trigger and kill someone who is standing 50 yards away. Whereas a knife or bat attack requires the attacker to actually physically assault their victim, therefore requiring a certain type of person to actually be able to inflict close-range, physical harm on someone else.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
That is exactly the reason the anti-gun debate is so idiotic.

No, the anti-gun argument is far from idiotic. Idiotic is a nation where someone gets murdered by gunfire every 58 minutes, but they refuse to combat the 5-tonne elephant in the room, all because some drunk dudes wrote something on a piece of paper in 17-hundred-and-whenever.