Occupy Wall Street Has Begun!

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Tell me if communism is the next step from socialism, is corporate fascism the next step for Capitalism, because from where I'm looking, that seems to have been the case.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
The administration already passed economic reforms. You want more?

Yes.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
You think that more govt bureaucracy will fix all this stuff?

No.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
You say the problem is with not being regulated. That must mean you want more regulations on top of this.

Yes and No. I want a different approach...

I want the "International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights" (part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) to STAND ABOVE corporate greed, lobbyism and the interests of centralized banks... wich is INTERNATIONAL LAW ANYWAYS.

I want this law enforced... not bend or ignored. Thats all.

Originally posted by Swingline50022

Originally posted by hapablab

Originally posted by Iiquiringmind

Originally posted by hapablab
live stream protest 9/19

at 17.05 mins in.

well they are upset at the treatment they recieved this morning by the NYPD, but at 17:05 mins into this video they were telling them to provoke the police, wtf, how can I take them seriously now, you can't cry about it now after making plans to provoke them. Double standard, shady and cowardly.

Pathetic.

How did they provoke the police EXACTLY? By being there? Its a mass of people each with their own idea of what needs to be done. If you'd been watching since Saturday you'd know that there were a few "loose cannons" pining for action and riots.. they were quickly dismissed by the larger group and invited to create a group and to act on their own if that was their wish.

Just like some of us would like to go in there "guns blazing".. others ( the majority) realize that peacefull protest must reign for the people to recognized their true intent. Otherwise people like you misconstrue the optics of a video or picture and write them off.. please don't be that guy.

edit on 20-9-2011 by Iiquiringmind because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-9-2011 by Iiquiringmind because: Added quaotation marks to guns blazing , in case someone think I'm actually going there with guns.. I'M NOT its a figure of speach.

AH BULL!, I've actually been following this since Sat, and when I heard that yesterday live, It wasn't the first time, they had a band sunday night singing F* the police, and all for a select few disagree'd, the majority sung along screaming those words. Stop finding an excuse for these excuses.

"Undercover law enforcement peppered the crowd dressed as the infamous “black bloc” communist group, some wore Guy Faux masks the trademark of Anonymous. They walked the crowd observing and taking photos cataloging the “activist groups” in attendance. The under covers are easily identifiable by their muscular stature among a sea of lanky activists, as well as their baggy clothes that conceal ankle holsters, military issue boots and their body language also exposes them as they are clearly uncomfortable in their environment.

The black bloc is infamous for provacatuering violence at these types of rallies and law enforcement has repeatedly been exposed posing as Black bloc to incite violence to justify a police crackdown on protest activities as was the case at the G20 summit protests in Toronto Canada last spring." ~ truthsquad.tv...

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by yeti101

 

Originally posted by yeti101
[...]
USA is a diffirent ball game , a lot of people there equate socialised medecine to communism which to us in europe is totally insane. Its like a lot of them have been brainwashed by propoganda. I think the USA is a lost cause until it collapses completely .

Im afraid you are right about this, I came to the same conclusion lately.
There are some terms that have a totally different meaning for (most) US Americans than they do for us Europeans, for instance patriotism.
Although the dictionary says the "correct"definition, the general understanding differs alot... Im not sure why, but it could well be propaganda or the bad condition of their educational system.

edit on 20-9-2011 by ColCurious because: grammar

Centralized planning failed in the former USSR, and you don't seem to connect the failure of all these banks and baking systems to the systemic failure of centralized banking combined with socialism worldwide....and you have to blame it on Capitalism, because that's what Marxian socialism does.

"While for the most part the protesters seem to be leftists, communists and socialists calling for an end to capitalism, there is also a contingent of tea partiers, libertarians and anarcho-capitalists calling for an end to “crony” capitalism and corporate fascism." ~ truthsquad.tv...

Just wanted to say, when I was there a couple days ago, I did spot(and shut down) one agent provocateur..he wasn't of the "obvious law enforcement" variety. this guy was just off, real "granola" on the surface, but, he was trying to get people to rush the police barricades. he was quite vocal about it. I stepped in, told him and the small group around him about the counterterrorism command center right around the corner, that everyone was being video'ed, etc, and everyone turned away from his idea. so, they're using different types of agitators.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by undo

 

Yes, communism, it failed in the Soviet Union. And why do so many in the world still want to experiment with various aspects of it?

Because "various aspects" of it are so broad that you would be eliminating SO much... are you serious?

Don't let nonsensical pre-determined partisan hatred stop your mind from thinking for itself..

Pretending that communism had absolutely no good ideas in it whatsoever is absolute nonsense to say the least. In its entirety, communism fails, of course, we all know that, but ignoring some of its better aspects and writing them off as "communism", smacking on a biased label, and turning your brain off is just flat out stupid.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

In fact Universal healthcare is a socialist plan and socialism is a bridge to communism

this is what i'm talking about when i say a lot of people in the USA seem brainwashed.

The UK has had universal health care for 70 years still no sign of communism here. Where do you get these ideas that countries turn communist if they have things like universal healthcare? I suspect thats the corporate/right wing lobbyists line of attack.

Has having socialised police, fire fighters & schools led to communism in america?

Stop believing the corporate line the same arguements were used in europe when universal health care was introduced. The same arguements by the same people (those with money at stake). Not one country who changed to "socialised" health care has went back. That says it all.

p.s in the UK we also have "private" health care which you can pay a premium and choose that if you have the cash.

reply to post by yeti101


Yet even the rich folk in the UK supported the creation of the NHS after the sacrifice's made by the working man in both world wars. It was seen as a right for people in society, guaranteed health care and assistance if made unemployed. People willing to put their lives on the line for their country deserved something in return. Not only that but the rich folk also knew that a healthy fit society make for a better work force.

I can't help but get the feeling that all of this could have been predicted Hari Seldon style. It's like everything is change and change is cyclic. An endless chain of cause and effect, perfectly predictable fluctuations. Social evolution is ongoing, and some very big changes are imminent. Those that have used the fortunes they made to manipulate politics to make it easier for them to increase their fortunes, will soon destroy the worlds economic infrastructure.

- just the opinion of a student of psychohistory.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Tell me if communism is the next step from socialism, is corporate fascism the next step for Capitalism, because from where I'm looking, that seems to have been the case.

Actually, were headed right towards a fascist socialistic society, were if you don't "play by the rules" you are cut off.

Look up the French revolution, all of the lords of industry (wood, food, horses ect) came together and tried to rule that way, where everything was reliant on them.

"Corporate Oligarchy" they call it as well

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Troublesome

#occupywallstreet is growing rapidly. Now that Georgia has executed Troy Davis, the numbers will again swell. Critical mass is on the verge of manifesting. I am keeping track of #occupywallstreet activities on my little blog site mayavision2012.wordpress.com... -coming/

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by NoHierarchy

 

Great Thinkers? which ones? Karl Marx, Engels, Hegel? Yes yes I know all about them. You may have your opinion and I may have mine. Mine is that good hearts are led astray by the putrid stench of a failed ideology which does not work in practice.
Did you know that the US taxpayers may end up picking up the tab for an Italian baillout courtesy of the IMF? That is real news. Why should I be on the hook for failed Italian economy? It's who is behind this protest that bothers me, and what the real agenda is. I bet some of these people are professional protesters who move from one protest to the next, you know like from Greece to Egypt and now to the States. I was watching the livestream and they seem to be veterans some of them. They give advice on how to come as close as they can without getting arrested.

ANd just so you know, if you are a leftist, than the State is your Master. That is premiere in the Communist Manifesto. The State is Supreme. Although Marx did say the State would eventually wither away but it doesn't and it hasn't. Your dream of a self-governing proletariat Utopia is an illusion. In the meantime you seem to think you are entitled to another's paycheck just because Marx said so.

edit on 20-9-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

You have no idea what you're talking about. You need an elementary education on what right/left is. Please see:
www.politicalcompass.org...

You know what? it's people like you who think you know all there is to know. No, I DONT need any education from you, and especially not on the left/right thing. I bet I knew about it before you were born. I'm just so sick of the leftist socialist bull and all the intimidation and people saying that anyone who doesn't agree is just stupid. I've heard of Alinsky's Rules for Radicals too. People who don't know what they are talking about suddenly start to spout that left equals right and there is no difference. No, left is left, right is right, and the clash of opposites produces the synthesis. That synthesis is what Antony Sutton says is the NWO, the outcome of all this clashing of opposites and is neither right nor left. If you mean that the two faux parties are the same, you might be partially correct. But socialism is still what it is, and is not a viable solution.
Lesson over.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??

My god you really need to sort out what you believe, because it's a mess. You obviously DON'T know what Socialism is, you let that neo-Fascist propagandist Glenn Beck teach you lessons in it when he either has NO IDEA what it is, or he KNOWS what Socialism is and is in a knowing war of lies to destroy beneficial forms of Socialism for his plutocrat right-wing buddies.

freedom has never been so banned

So is there a REAL TIME feed going on anywhere on the net that we can look in on?? I can't seem to find anything but a few pictures here and there and some videos of what has happened in the 1st coupel days...

Originally posted by Sage2000
So is there a REAL TIME feed going on anywhere on the net that we can look in on?? I can't seem to find anything but a few pictures here and there and some videos of what has happened in the 1st coupel days...

This but it seems to be down more often than it's up...

www.livestream.com...

Originally posted by Partisanity

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by undo

 

Yes, communism, it failed in the Soviet Union. And why do so many in the world still want to experiment with various aspects of it?

Because "various aspects" of it are so broad that you would be eliminating SO much... are you serious?

Don't let nonsensical pre-determined partisan hatred stop your mind from thinking for itself..

Pretending that communism had absolutely no good ideas in it whatsoever is absolute nonsense to say the least. In its entirety, communism fails, of course, we all know that, but ignoring some of its better aspects and writing them off as "communism", smacking on a biased label, and turning your brain off is just flat out stupid.

edit on 21-9-2011 by Partisanity because: (no reason given)

Yah, you are right, we actually have a lot of socialist programs already in the States. The people who are instituting these programs know that once passed, this kind of legislation almost never gets reapealed. Fabian Socialism specifically deals with implementing socialism in increments. That way it becomes impossible to know if it has failed or not, and why or why not, because it is still using Capital to fund it.

I didn't make up the statement that socialism is a bridge to communism. The communists even say it on their websites. Give me time I can find this stuff. Meantime, here is someone else who is for communism who says it

Today we live in a capitalist society - with gross class inequalities. If we want a society where everyone is truly equal (communism), we cannot get there overnight. Socialism is the bridge between capitalism and communism;

www.planetanarchy.net...

ok quotes from Lenin

Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.
Vladimir Lenin

Politics begin where the masses are, not where there are thousands, but where there are millions, that is where serious politics begin.
Vladimir Lenin

Sometimes - history needs a push.
Vladimir Lenin

The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency.
Vladimir Lenin

The goal of socialism is communism.
Vladimir Lenin

www.brainyquote.com...

ok can I rest my case now?

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Tell me if communism is the next step from socialism, is corporate fascism the next step for Capitalism, because from where I'm looking, that seems to have been the case.

Lenin said that socialism would lead to communism. So does the Communist Party. Fascism is really a leftist ideology that leftists keep trying to say is really right wing. Well it may be the right wing of leftist ideology, but it is not a republican ideal.

If we want a society where everyone is truly equal (communism), we cannot get there overnight. Socialism is the bridge between capitalism and communism; it is a transitional period that has features of both the society of yesterday (capitalism) and tomorrow (communism) because it will inherit the world capitalism has left it.

www.planetanarchy.net...


The late Prof Antony Sutton explains it better than anyone I have read

How can there exist a common objective when members [of The Order of Skull and Bones] are apparently acting in opposition to one another?

Probably the most difficult task in this work will be to get across
to the reader what is really an elementary observation: that the
objective of The Order is neither "left" nor "right." "Left"
and "right" are artificial devicces to bring about change, and the
extremes of political left and political right are vital elements in
a process of controlled change.

The answer to this seeming political puzzle lies in Hegelian logic.
Remember that both Marx and Hitler, the extremes of "left"
and "right" presented as textbook enemies, evolved out of the same
philosophical system: Hegelianism. That brings screams of
intellectual anguish from Marxists and Nazis, but is well known to
any student of political systems.
The dialectical process did not originate with Marx as Marxists
claim, but with Fichte and Hegel in late 18th and early 19th century
Germany. In the dialectical process a clash of opposites brings about
a synthesis. For example, a clash of political left and political
right brings about another political system, a synthesis of the two,
niether left nor right. This conflict of opposites is essential to
bring about change. Today this process can be identified in the
literature of the Trilateral Commission where "change" is promoted
and "conflict management" is termed the means to bring about this
change.
In the Hegelian system conflict is essential. Furthermore, for Hegel
and systems based on Hegel, the State is absolute. The State requires
complete obedience from the individual citizen. An individual does
not exist for himself in these so-called organic systems but only to
perform a role in the operation of the State...
So who or what is the State? Obviously it's a self-appointed elite.
It is interesting that Fichte, who developed these ideas before
Hegel, was a freemason, almost certainly Illuminati, and certainly
was promoted by the Illuminati

www.apfn.net...

Contrary to the fallacious ideas put forth by certain persons, Capitalism is not fascism.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Tell me if communism is the next step from socialism, is corporate fascism the next step for Capitalism, because from where I'm looking, that seems to have been the case.

Yes Lenin said it, the Communist Party says it, and this guy says it

If we want a society where everyone is truly equal (communism), we cannot get there overnight. Socialism is the bridge between capitalism and communism; it is a transitional period that has features of both the society of yesterday (capitalism) and tomorrow (communism) because it will inherit the world capitalism has left it.

www.planetanarchy.net...

Even though I hate the greedy corporatists, I hate the communists more, I think.

How can every one be equal when most people are stupid?

reply to post by In nothing we trust


I had to amend my post to reflect a more accurate statement. Capitalism does not lead to fascism. Fascism is still an element of leftist ideology and leftists use the idea of fascism as a right wing ideology in order to create an appearance of an opposition. Straight communism as it appeared in the Soviet Union had centralized planning by the State and ownership of all means of production. That is, the govt controls all the businesses. It controls the production and distribution of product. Socialism introduces income redistribution as a means of "spreading the wealth". Capitalism is a means of competitive markets in the private sector. Hitler and Mussolini used private industries in his operations. Therefore, it is slightly to the right of communism.

Now in order to understand what all this has to do with the Wall Street protests is that a lot of people believe that by getting rid of capitalism, they will solve a lot of problems in society. the protesters at Wall Street may believe that by attacking Wall Street, they can bring down the "crony capitalism" they think is ruining society.
I personally think that ending the Fed is a much better way to stop the madness than completely crashing the Market, as the Market existed before the Fed, and can exist without it. Getting rid of the Fed, in my view, would accomplish far more in terms of taking the private crony control of the Market out of play. The Fed is not federal. Our treasury is supposed to be in control of the currency anyway, so the Fed is really unConstitutional.
I really do think that some people (not all) behind this protest are interested in destroying Capitalism.
Has anyone here, have any Ron Paul supporters ever heard him call for the downfall of The Market? No, but he has called for the ending of the Fed.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Straight communism as it appeared in the Soviet Union had centralized planning by the State and ownership of all means of production. That is, the govt controls all the businesses. It controls the production and distribution of product.

Therefore anyone who had any brains worked for the communist party and the state as it was the only means of improving their standard of living.

Socialism introduces income redistribution as a means of "spreading the wealth". Capitalism is a means of competitive markets in the private sector.

A Bureaucratic, Corporate controllled Despotism is where we find ourselves in modern day America.

I call for a Millitary dictatorship or a Stratocracy to restore our constitutional republic.

We're all god damned prisoners of the state which is run by established money and their paid for Ahole figureheads in Washington or the States in which we reside. And to add insult to injury we are subjected to the same from county and city bobbleheads.

reply to post by In nothing we trust


Well, they simply had no choice. It was either that or be thrown into the gulags. The communists in USSR actually used the people in labor camps to build their industrial complex. Strange as it may seem, since we think of communism as the opposition to the industrialization of society.
So, for anyone who dissented, they were thrown in a gulag, sent to Siberia, etc. One can easily see that communism as practiced by the old Soviet Union goes against the grain of liberty, and really it's the ultimate totalitarian system where one has no choice.


What do you think a military dictatorship would accomplish? To establish order? Well, in fact, that sort of thing is used to restore order to more anarchic elements. That is one strategy used by communists, create disorder and revolution, which has to be controlled by a dictatorship. You see this with guerilla type governments.
I do not wish for such a thing for America. I much prefer a conservative Libertarian type of government.

Now, I also happen to think that allowing the protesters their right to assembly and freedom of speech is our Constitutional right, even though I may disagree with one or more elements of it. The police have their duty to protect the rights of other citizens to do business there and to keep order.
One thing that is interesting is that in the Hegelian argument, the controlling elite always support both sides of an argument, both sides of a conflict, and that is why everything can get so confusing. This is why the other poster insisted that I didn't know what I was talking about, because it is often difficult to articulate these things.